sure, he plays 67 too. Flop comes AQrag. Do you REALLY want to take the chance and fire in the dark? Are you that confident he plays garbage that when you check and he standard c-bets, you're prepared to jam over the top?
You're setting yourself up for a scenario where if you commit all your chips, you're drawing to a 2 outer if called, and if you don't make a play at it, you have to give up. Take away his positional advantage and jam pre- turns out you were screwed against AA, but way more often he has that garbage like 67 and has to fold. If you were in position- now I can understand calling more, because you have more information- both the flop texture, and your opponents response. But when you're this shallow there just isn't enough play to start getting fancy and calling/floating/doing anything- just get it in preflop and be done with it. It's a double or bust spot.
sure, he plays 67 too. Flop comes AQrag. Do you REALLY want to take the chance and fire in the dark? Are you that confident he plays garbage that when you check and he standard c-bets, you're prepared to jam over the top? You're setting yourself up for a scenario where if you commit all your chips, you're drawing to a 2 outer if called, and if you don't make a play at it, you have to give up. Take away his positional advantage and jam pre- turns out you were screwed against AA, but way more often he has that garbage like 67 and has to fold. If you were in position- now I can understand calling more, because you have more information- both the flop texture, and your opponents response. But when you're this shallow there just isn't enough play to start getting fancy and calling/floating/doing anything- just get it in preflop and be done with it. It's a double or bust spot. Posted by DeucesLive
he has 100k i had 30k do you think he folds with KQ etc in this situation ?as even though im short stacked dont really want a race but is that the best im going to get with my stack?
Calling is riskier, but we can be outdrawn if we get it in pre also. Equally if flop comes 743 hes prob not folding 7x etc which he often folds to a shove pre. If I did call Im intending crai on flop unless board is really ugly( or shoving turn if it checks thru). To do this you need to know he opens wide and cbets a lot. Shoving pre folds out most worse hands and we are prob only a slight favourite against his calling range
Its a non standard line sure, and its slightly fps but I think it may have merit against certain opponents
a race is great, sure. He probably doesn't fold with KQ, and you go off to the races. a) you bust and get nothing. b) you double up and go on to have a great chance at winning.
People need to embrace the race and realise that it's the best way of truly doing well. I understand the theory of 'why do I want to race when I think I'm better than the field?' but that's simply not the case. You are better off taking 50/50 races in every tournament you get, almost every chance you get, since all it takes is one run where you win 3/4 in a row to get a MASSIVE score by winning, or even just FTing a big tournament.
You're better off winning primo once than mincashing twenty times. And the only way you win it is by taking your races. The earlier you do it, the bigger your chip stack, then instead of YOU being the wrong side of a 30k/100k, where you're out if you lose, you're instead the other side and if you win- your stack's even bigger and you continue bullying, if you lose- you still have a plenty playable stack.
Tournaments are about having enough skill to do well when the luck goes with you. If you're a rubbish player, you're only going to win a tournament if you have an inordinate amount of skill (and it does happen- look at Darvin Moon finishing 2nd in WSOP). If you have skill though, you only need a reasonable amount of luck to get through. But to think you can get through without luck or having to rely on luck at some point is crazy.
Just get it in pre, and see what happens. Had this situation twice in past few days, both times just on the bubble, shoved both times and got done by rag aces. Variance says it's my turn next, lol. Posted by Red_King
In Response to Re: How to play Jacks? : because you are committed to the hand if you call and theres not many flops you want to see. so if you ship it in pre you dont have any more decisions. simple way to play the game, but effective. Posted by GREGHOGG
Shipping is the standard play, I'm fine with that, it doesnt necessarily mean its best against every opponent with every dynamic
Taking a line because you dont have to make tough decisions is not good in general if you are sacrificing profit to do it (not talking about this hand in particular)
In Response to Re: How to play Jacks? : Shipping is the standard play, I'm fine with that, it doesnt necessarily mean its best against every opponent with every dynamicTaking a line because you dont have to make tough decisions is not good in general if you are sacrificing profit to do it (not talking about this hand in particular) Posted by grantorino
I agree with some of your point here, ive italiced what i agree with. However ive bolded what i disagree with and i will reply below.
As a player in tournaments i try to avoid "tough" desisions and ive never once ever felt ive sacrificed profit, infact ive actually argued with people because there was a shorty guarenteed to be in a hand once and a raiser before me who had me covered that folding my AK was profitable, where many would have said to shove. Now im not saying that i was laddering there, but i felt i could wait for a better spot where i could raise myself without the raiser before me. Therefore making my desisions easier, and not risking it on the line by trying to isolate a shorty when im most likey against 4 cards, possibly a pair (flip which i would take) but if they dont have a pair and say call with QJ and shorty has 78 suited im not favorite to win the hand any more.
However in this case with the jacks, i dont feel a flat call is possible, an overcard is comming 57% of the time and we're just the right stack to justify a shove, we cant 3-bet,fold so theres that option out of the window. We already know the guys range is wider than jacks, so we dont even like a 10 high flop much. Therefore imo in the hand in question the play is to shove. why worry about our own desision remember this is for half our opponents stack which is a big injury to someone at this end of the tournament so we possibly do fold out AQ/KQ although a number of others maybe disagree with that.
In Response to Re: How to play Jacks? : I agree with some of your point here, ive italiced what i agree with. However ive bolded what i disagree with and i will reply below. As a player in tournaments i try to avoid "tough" desisions and ive never once ever felt ive sacrificed profit, infact ive actually argued with people because there was a shorty guarenteed to be in a hand once and a raiser before me who had me covered that folding my AK was profitable, where many would have said to shove. Now im not saying that i was laddering there, but i felt i could wait for a better spot where i could raise myself without the raiser before me. Therefore making my desisions easier, and not risking it on the line by trying to isolate a shorty when im most likey against 4 cards, possibly a pair (flip which i would take) but if they dont have a pair and say call with QJ and shorty has 78 suited im not favorite to win the hand any more. However in this case with the jacks, i dont feel a flat call is possible, an overcard is comming 57% of the time and we're just the right stack to justify a shove, we cant 3-bet,fold so theres that option out of the window. We already know the guys range is wider than jacks, so we dont even like a 10 high flop much. Therefore imo in the hand in question the play is to shove. why worry about our own desision remember this is for half our opponents stack which is a big injury to someone at this end of the tournament so we possibly do fold out AQ/KQ although a number of others maybe disagree with that. Posted by The_Don90
cheers don, but this certain opponant is not folding AK,AQ,AJ,A10,KQ,KJ etcc here
To throw the "other side " in here. You can flat and get away from the hand post-flop - as long as you have the discipline to do that. You can raise, and fold to the re-raise. In reality, it's a shove and hope. JJ for my tourney - I'm happy with that. Having flatted, you could have lost far fewer chips than the rest of us would!
JJ is a very difficult hand to play. Simple facts are in a raised pot you have a good chance of being up against an overpair or at least 1 overcard. There is then a 50% chance of an over card coming on the flop which you naturally dont want to see. With this hand of yours if it were cash or early levels in a tourny i might make a call and see what happens but at the stage you are at then it is a simple shove or fold scenario and i think the shove is the best of those options.
jacks are very much dependent on stack sizes- with the sizes as they are, with you on ~15bbs against a 3x raise, shoving is definitely my favourite option- in fact, it's what I'd be praying for. What ISN'T easy is when you have 15bbs and jacks in an unopened pot- you're now in that horrible grey area where opening and getting shoved on is a nasty spot, but open shoving 15bbs is too much. That spot I really dislike and hate playing. When it's already been opened, you have a big hand and 15bbs, the decision is simple. You're in good shape against most hands that look you up, and have a reasonable chance of increasing your stack by more than 30% for no risk.
As Talon said, in early stages I'll call with intent to evaluate flop/set mine. You have enough chips to make this play. In cash, I may 3bet with the intention of calling/folding to a 4bet, depending on how deep we are (if we're extremely deep, calling a 4 bet with any pair becomes profitable for implied odds- if you're only 100/150bbs deep it's probably best to just fold). Alternatively, you can flat the raise like you would in early tourney stages and re-evaluate flop.
In Response to Re: How to play Jacks? : I agree with some of your point here, ive italiced what i agree with. However ive bolded what i disagree with and i will reply below. As a player in tournaments i try to avoid "tough" desisions and ive never once ever felt ive sacrificed profit, infact ive actually argued with people because there was a shorty guarenteed to be in a hand once and a raiser before me who had me covered that folding my AK was profitable, where many would have said to shove. Now im not saying that i was laddering there, but i felt i could wait for a better spot where i could raise myself without the raiser before me. Therefore making my desisions easier, and not risking it on the line by trying to isolate a shorty when im most likey against 4 cards, possibly a pair (flip which i would take) but if they dont have a pair and say call with QJ and shorty has 78 suited im not favorite to win the hand any more. However in this case with the jacks, i dont feel a flat call is possible, an overcard is comming 57% of the time and we're just the right stack to justify a shove, we cant 3-bet,fold so theres that option out of the window. We already know the guys range is wider than jacks, so we dont even like a 10 high flop much. Therefore imo in the hand in question the play is to shove. why worry about our own desision remember this is for half our opponents stack which is a big injury to someone at this end of the tournament so we possibly do fold out AQ/KQ although a number of others maybe disagree with that. Posted by The_Don90
Don, avoiding making tough decisions is fine, but not if it effects your profit. To take an extreme example if I openshove AA 100BB deep that makes the hand easy to play,its +EV but is it the most +EV move? Rarely, and you are normally making a big mistake if you do this. I know thats a kind of silly example, but the point stands dont sacrifice $ in order to avoid tough decisions.
The hand you have posted is nothing like this situation, and I think its a horrible fold (assuming you are not in some really unusual bubble situation) you would have to be really good to pass up that kind of edge, I also doubt a better spot will materialise that often. It also fails to illustrate you point, you havent avoided a decision, you just folded instead of shoving
I have no idea why you are not happy on a T hi flop with JJ this shallow. I also have no idea what you mean earlier in thread when you say we cant call because we dont have control in the hand
People seem to be misinterpreting my posts somewhat, I think shoving is best, esp given ibluffs reads. I was just saying that you could call with a plan to get it in on nearly all flops with good reads (I am not flatting because I'm afraid of getting it in). These reads might include stuff like - raises very wide has a very tight range for calling 3bets cbets close to 100%
It will certainly be higher variance, it may show a higher profit also. Very few people have given good reasons as to why shoving is best (I'll post my own in a bit). Saying oh but what if an overcard comes isnt good enough imo, if it does you should decide pre what way you are going to play on certain flops, overcards wont hit him that often if he's a wide opening range
Comments
never ever ever flat call
Calling is riskier, but we can be outdrawn if we get it in pre also. Equally if flop comes 743 hes prob not folding 7x etc which he often folds to a shove pre. If I did call Im intending crai on flop unless board is really ugly( or shoving turn if it checks thru). To do this you need to know he opens wide and cbets a lot. Shoving pre folds out most worse hands and we are prob only a slight favourite against his calling range
Its a non standard line sure, and its slightly fps but I think it may have merit against certain opponents
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?
Got done again in TOT FT by AA
so if you ship it in pre you dont have any more decisions.
simple way to play the game, but effective.
Taking a line because you dont have to make tough decisions is not good in general if you are sacrificing profit to do it (not talking about this hand in particular)
As a player in tournaments i try to avoid "tough" desisions and ive never once ever felt ive sacrificed profit, infact ive actually argued with people because there was a shorty guarenteed to be in a hand once and a raiser before me who had me covered that folding my AK was profitable, where many would have said to shove. Now im not saying that i was laddering there, but i felt i could wait for a better spot where i could raise myself without the raiser before me. Therefore making my desisions easier, and not risking it on the line by trying to isolate a shorty when im most likey against 4 cards, possibly a pair (flip which i would take) but if they dont have a pair and say call with QJ and shorty has 78 suited im not favorite to win the hand any more.
However in this case with the jacks, i dont feel a flat call is possible, an overcard is comming 57% of the time and we're just the right stack to justify a shove, we cant 3-bet,fold so theres that option out of the window. We already know the guys range is wider than jacks, so we dont even like a 10 high flop much. Therefore imo in the hand in question the play is to shove. why worry about our own desision remember this is for half our opponents stack which is a big injury to someone at this end of the tournament so we possibly do fold out AQ/KQ although a number of others maybe disagree with that.
In reality, it's a shove and hope. JJ for my tourney - I'm happy with that. Having flatted, you could have lost far fewer chips than the rest of us would!
Again im happy to take a flip at this stage. If he has KJ, AJ, AT or a pair lower we're in even better shape.
The hand you have posted is nothing like this situation, and I think its a horrible fold (assuming you are not in some really unusual bubble situation) you would have to be really good to pass up that kind of edge, I also doubt a better spot will materialise that often. It also fails to illustrate you point, you havent avoided a decision, you just folded instead of shoving
I have no idea why you are not happy on a T hi flop with JJ this shallow. I also have no idea what you mean earlier in thread when you say we cant call because we dont have control in the hand
People seem to be misinterpreting my posts somewhat, I think shoving is best, esp given ibluffs reads. I was just saying that you could call with a plan to get it in on nearly all flops with good reads (I am not flatting because I'm afraid of getting it in). These reads might include stuff like -
raises very wide
has a very tight range for calling 3bets
cbets close to 100%
It will certainly be higher variance, it may show a higher profit also. Very few people have given good reasons as to why shoving is best (I'll post my own in a bit). Saying oh but what if an overcard comes isnt good enough imo, if it does you should decide pre what way you are going to play on certain flops, overcards wont hit him that often if he's a wide opening range