In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots : could you 4bet air here vs two good players or is that spew vs their ranges? Posted by N1CK
I think you could with good reads that SB has some bluffs and some weaker value hands like JJ maybe AQ in his range. Lots of tags flat JJ and AQ against opens from good players utg though, and very few bluff 3bet utg opens so its rare you can actually do it
In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots : yeah it does so does sb con range, it a pretty horrible spot coz when we 4 bet we fold all hands we beat and get action from basically KK AA, BY 4betting the min can he not shove worse hands sometimes? if you 3bet an utg from the sb there are a few hands that can flat? also you say you dont always 4bet here.....fold? calling cant be good as it prolly goes 3way and we can lose some or little equity that we have? Posted by N1CK
Yeah 4betting almost turns our hand into a bluff, if we flat we dont always go 3way, but it will happen a lot. Its a pretty tricky spot, it might be one of those spots where turning the 3rd nuts into a bluff may be the most profitable way to play, I prob call and get it in on non A,K hi flops
I doubt many tag villains shove JJ or worse over a cold 4b no matter how small it is without some history
As regards utg range for flatting sb 3bets, I would expect it to be JJ, maybe TT maybe KK+ maybe nothing if hes good and there hasnt been 3bet battles going on.
Im basing my ranges on 50NL at a different site, this one seems looser, it could well be a fistpump 4b/c
In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots : Yeah 4betting almost turns our hand into a bluff, if we flat we dont always go 3way, but it will happen a lot. Its a pretty tricky spot, it might be one of those spots where turning the 3rd nuts into a bluff may be the most profitable way to play, I prob call and get it in on non A,K hi flops I doubt many tag villains shove JJ or worse over a cold 4b no matter how small it is without some history As regards utg range for flatting sb 3bets, I would expect it to be JJ, maybe TT maybe KK+ maybe nothing if hes good and there hasnt been 3bet battles going on. Im basing my ranges on 50NL at a different site, this one seems looser, it could well be a fistpump 4b/c Posted by grantorino
i couldn't just call and if i did im not folding to overcard i think im better off 4bet get it in regardless
4b/c is prob best, never underestimate peoples ability to spew and get it in Calling sounds best to me "in theory" but it makes the hand difficult to play I'm trying to see can I justify folding and consolidate my nitty image on this forum :O Posted by grantorino
tell me your theory why calling could be better and all postflop scenarios?
lol nick, you are making me look stupid (easy enough prob)
What I meant is 4betting sort of folds all worse and gets called by all better, so theoretically, calling seems better as we should be ahead of villains ranges. I realise we are going to get into some nasty spots postflop, and it prob requires extremely good hand reading skills to play it profitably this way
Tbh, Im not sure whats best, 4b/c gains us a small pot most of the time and we sometimes get it in flipping or villains spew so I'm leaning towards that
lol nick, you are making me look stupid (easy enough prob) What I meant is 4betting sort of folds all worse and gets called by all better, so theoretically, calling seems better as we should be ahead of villains ranges. I realise we are going to get into some nasty spots postflop, and it prob requires extremely good hand reading skills to play it profitably this way Tbh, Im not sure whats best, 4b/c gains us a small pot most of the time and we sometimes get it in flipping or villains spew so I'm leaning towards that Posted by grantorino
lol couldnt be further from the truth, if you give me good reasoning then i will buy it.... but it seems your back peddling abit now lol now im interested to see what LOL Raise has to say????????
I seriously dont know, I kinda think calling should be better, but I know I prob spew badly if I take that line. My reasoning would be it keeps hands like TT,JJ, AQ in Sbs range and UTG can call wider closing the action 3way, whereas 4betting either takes it down (which means we are bluffing ) or gets it in bad
give me yours why 4b/c is better? I seriously dont know, I kinda think calling should be better, but I know I prob spew badly if I take that line. My reasoning would be it keeps hands like TT,JJ, AQ in Sbs range and UTG can call wider closing the action 3way, whereas 4betting either takes it down (which means we are bluffing ) or gets it in bad Posted by grantorino
i think calling could be ok if we are never folding at any point through the streets, if he has say 99+ will we get any more action post flop? by 4 betting a decent size we do give the sb more room to make a mistake which is were we make our money from and it stops speculative calls from utg which i think is better for us??
i dont think we are 4 bet bluffing with QQ because we are never folding its a value bluff thingy lol
well 4betting allows SB to spew and he might fold AK (unlikely) it also allows him fold JJ (and most decent tags would imo)
I think we can possibly get more money postflop as I think our flat will often be interpreted as a small-mid pp or AQ, I'm not sure with that pot size I would be that worried about utg calling with speculative hands.
Yeah we are obv never 4b/f QQ, just if they fold it doesnt matter what we hold, if they shove we are usually a big dog.
I'm going to leave it at that, I'm prob not good enough to make the argument one way or another. I'd be very interested if someone was able to run some decent numbers on this
UTG open SB 3bets. thats like the strongest 3betting range there is preflop. i guess utg opens BB 3bets is slightly stronger but w/e.
a 'standard' 3betting range here is pretty much going to be QQ+,AK & bluffs. without history between UTG&SB or SB & urself i think 4bet/calling QQ is going to end up the vast vast vast majority of the time mean u get it in vs KK+,AK which isnt +Ev unless the UTG open is likely to do something super special.
obv theory wise you bet to get worse hands to call or better hands to fold, better hands arent folding, worse hands arent calling/shoving (without history!) so from theory point of view calling would be better however that doesnt take into account playing postflop in big pot with QQ can get quite messy.
UTG open SB 3bets. thats like the strongest 3betting range there is preflop. i guess utg opens BB 3bets is slightly stronger but w/e. a 'standard' 3betting range here is pretty much going to be QQ+,AK & bluffs. without history between UTG&SB or SB & urself i think 4bet/calling QQ is going to end up the vast vast vast majority of the time mean u get it in vs KK+,AK which isnt +Ev unless the UTG open is likely to do something super special. obv theory wise you bet to get worse hands to call or better hands to fold, better hands arent folding, worse hands arent calling/shoving (without history!) so from theory point of view calling would be better however that doesnt take into account playing postflop in big pot with QQ can get quite messy. Posted by LOL_RAISE
so whats the best thing to do if everyone is good? call or fold? and is 4 bet the worse option?
depends on how you define 'good' like nl400+ regs on the main sites good? then id 4b/c. but if you mean decent nl50reg on sky fold/call prob isnt much difference
depends on how you define 'good' like nl400+ regs on the main sites good? then id 4b/c. but if you mean decent nl50reg on sky fold/call prob isnt much difference Posted by LOL_RAISE
i know they are both raising from the strongest positions but it is 6max were i think utg strength is over rated lets face it its middle position really..... but obviously you have to bear it in mind.....what in your opinion is like a standard utg open range for decent nl50 sky regs?
it depends, against most regs who I think are paying attention I'd be happy 4b/cing with QQ+/AK. Once there's a coldcall from the bb I'd probably peel in position with like 66/77+ (assuming 100bbs deep).
QQ hand, as played obv have to call after that bet size.
If our only read being that we know the villain is a good player I might be 4bet folding here. We're cold 4betting and if anything over representing our hand. And we get shoved on. Read-less and without direct history this will be a bad call more than it's a good call.
I don't hate the peel but I don't like it. I really do not like calling 3bets and not closing the betting, it's just so spewy. However I have to balance this with our hand strength, position on the 3bettor and the likelihood of the original raiser folding. Still, the more I consider it the more I dislike it. There are so many bad flops we can easily spew more dead money here.
With reads and if I noticed Hurst may be a little 'excited' I'm snap calling. I really respect Hurst's game but he, like a few of us myself included, can get a little spewy and shovey when we shouldn't be.
But Nick's point about people making mistakes is a very good one. That the main way you make money, not by being capable of playing 'perfect poker' but by just making less mistakes than our opponents.
Thinly veiled brag time, you probably will see an example of this on TOPT this week (the villain hasn't been in this thread, and at least it should squeeze out a hand I butchered into a **** pulp against Lol_Raise this week, still having nightmares about that one...).
Comments
I doubt many tag villains shove JJ or worse over a cold 4b no matter how small it is without some history
As regards utg range for flatting sb 3bets, I would expect it to be JJ, maybe TT maybe KK+ maybe nothing if hes good and there hasnt been 3bet battles going on.
Im basing my ranges on 50NL at a different site, this one seems looser, it could well be a fistpump 4b/c
4b/c is prob best, never underestimate peoples ability to spew and get it in
Calling sounds best to me "in theory" but it makes the hand difficult to play
I'm trying to see can I justify folding and consolidate my nitty image on this forum :O
What I meant is 4betting sort of folds all worse and gets called by all better, so theoretically, calling seems better as we should be ahead of villains ranges. I realise we are going to get into some nasty spots postflop, and it prob requires extremely good hand reading skills to play it profitably this way
Tbh, Im not sure whats best, 4b/c gains us a small pot most of the time and we sometimes get it in flipping or villains spew so I'm leaning towards that
I seriously dont know, I kinda think calling should be better, but I know I prob spew badly if I take that line. My reasoning would be it keeps hands like TT,JJ, AQ in Sbs range and UTG can call wider closing the action 3way, whereas 4betting either takes it down (which means we are bluffing ) or gets it in bad
i dont think we are 4 bet bluffing with QQ because we are never folding its a value bluff thingy lol
well 4betting allows SB to spew and he might fold AK (unlikely) it also allows him fold JJ (and most decent tags would imo)
I think we can possibly get more money postflop as I think our flat will often be interpreted as a small-mid pp or AQ, I'm not sure with that pot size I would be that worried about utg calling with speculative hands.
Yeah we are obv never 4b/f QQ, just if they fold it doesnt matter what we hold, if they shove we are usually a big dog.
I'm going to leave it at that, I'm prob not good enough to make the argument one way or another. I'd be very interested if someone was able to run some decent numbers on this
a 'standard' 3betting range here is pretty much going to be QQ+,AK & bluffs.
without history between UTG&SB or SB & urself i think 4bet/calling QQ is going to end up the vast vast vast majority of the time mean u get it in vs KK+,AK which isnt +Ev unless the UTG open is likely to do something super special.
obv theory wise you bet to get worse hands to call or better hands to fold, better hands arent folding, worse hands arent calling/shoving (without history!) so from theory point of view calling would be better however that doesnt take into account playing postflop in big pot with QQ can get quite messy.
seriously though I think calling is best without history between you two