Shocked TAG called this, shame to miss

AMYBR

50/1 cash game, 5 handed.  I've been playing pretty snug, only one real good player at the table other than me.  I'm not really moving forwards or back, just treading water.

Tag makes it 2.75 to go gets two callers comes to me in the BB, I see 6d8d, pretty obliged to call.

Flop comes 345r, around £11 in pot.

SB opens for $15 I only have around £60 back,  SB is a douche and been raising me weak all night, Im putting TAG on 8's or 9's, figure he has to fold to a jam, so I jam.  My image is pretty tight, only really betting 2pr, made hand or big draw i feel.

TAG tanks then calls, all else folds.  Shockingly he shows K5 off.  I love it, having 14 outs.  But I miss.

Still feel like its a good jam.  Opinions?  I do figure he folds an overpair to the action, as have been tight throughout

N1CK

In Response to Shocked TAG called this, shame to miss:

50/1 cash game, 5 handed.  I've been playing pretty snug, only one real good player at the table other than me.  I'm not really moving forwards or back, just treading water. Tag makes it 2.75 to go gets two callers comes to me in the BB, I see 6d8d, pretty obliged to call. Flop comes 345r , around £11 in pot. SB opens for $15 I only have around £60 back,  SB is a douche and been raising me weak all night, Im putting TAG on 8's or 9's, figure he has to fold to a jam, so I jam.  My image is pretty tight, only really betting 2pr, made hand or big draw i feel. TAG tanks then calls, all else folds.  Shockingly he shows K5 off.  I love it, having 14 outs.  But I miss. Still feel like its a good jam.  Opinions?  I do figure he folds an overpair to the action, as have been tight throughout
Posted by AMYBR

are you sure about this?

YOUNG_GUN

i dont like the jam, if he has overpair ur behind??  also surely u would re-raise pre any overpair right? would fold any possible 2 pair only a set really he can be worried about but u wouldnt jam as a rainbow flop 
 

HartshorN

You can't really jam in hope yours "thoughts" are correct..

AMYBR

Of course you can.  Your constantly assesing what your opponents actions will be based on action seen.  That flop, with an opening bet and a jam from a tight player (from the blinds) should be making you seriosly evaluate the strength of any hand.  Your comment makes no sense to me HartshorN.

Yes behind against an over pair (8's or 9's) but this wasnt the issue.  Issue was given the action from a family pot there arent that many hands that you're going to feel comfortable calling the action with.  So it was a likely opponent folds / but if calls still have plenty of equity.    Not really just calling in that spot given stack saize, not a big fan of folding either.  If i call the £15, pots stands at £41, leaving me around £45 back.

ilove2h8pr

He who thinks he is thinking to much, is likely thinking too much bud

CrazyBen23

You should know if hes a douche he'll call with any s**t

yb

lol what from the action makes you think 88/99 is more likely than KK/AA?

AMYBR

Just utterly missing the point.

But in answer to your query, player knowledge, bet sizing and his reaction to opening better.

4 way cheap flop, pricing in the blinds.  There's alot to be concerned with, board + action.

Out of curiousity when some of you guys play do you just close your eyes and ears to player knowledge and table dynamics?  Do you just sit there with 0 table awareness, never factoring in how individuals tend to bet/act. 

Just doesnt seem that many of you dont think the knowledge gleamed from 1000's of hands played live against the same regs has any impact on a game.  Which I truly find incredible.

YOUNG_GUN

lol at the above post ur funny

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Shocked TAG called this, shame to miss:

lol at the above post ur funny
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

Sorry bud, this "backhanded insult" wasnt directed at people like you, who are interested in discussion/analysis.

I'm just fed up of people who disregard others specific game/player knowledge/experience.  Its easy to armchair analyse, without any of the contextual info/dynamic.  I really dont get where some people are coming from.   I think you should always use all the info at hand to close down your Opponents range, helping bet sizing through the streets, or avoiding potential pitfalls.

Just seems that there's a few people who get an ego trip out of being unduly critical when they dont really know what they are talking about.

grantorino

Amybr, pleas explain how you put him on 88-99 just on the fact he opened pre?

I just dont get these "reads" you post. Why cant he have tonnes of other hands?

 Im not a big fan of the shove with 2 bad players still in hand, villain may fold,not sure its often enough though. Generally you are a 2/1 dog if called and with stacksizes and prob dead money from sb its tough for him to fold imo Also your image is prob not as tight as you believe if he calls you here (or hes not a tag)

DeucesLive

I find it hilarious that you post this on the clinic, seemingly for advice, then insult everyone that disagrees with your thinking. Seriously?

If you're throwing insults at YB, for example, I would lay money that he's a far more successful poker player than you, who absolutely knows a lot more about the game. Nothing against you or your game, he knows way more than I do, or most on this site for that matter- he's a very fine player. I'm sure he knows exactly what table dynamics are and how they affect decisions.

Here though, you have a guy who you label as a TAG making a totally standard 2.75x raise. Based on that, and NOTHING else, you've somehow deduced he probably has 8's/9's as opposed to kings or aces? Or any number of random aces/kings? Based on ONE raise? 

FWIW, I like the jam. It's a rainbow board, you're open ended and if anyone's hit a part of the board, you've got overs and the straight draw- great times. If he does have the overpair and calls, you've still got that 30% equity in the draw, and you obviously get a huge amount of folds.

In all honesty, if you want to post for advice, accept the advice, and if you think someone's wrong, question them. Ask for their reasoning. Don't tell them they don't know what they're talking about.

I have my suspicions you're just trolling, if so- great job. I bit.

AMYBR

He is TAG and my image really is that tight, on this occassion he put me on the draw correctly though.  Likely the jam gave it away.  But even still, he knows he's flipping on the call so was still surprising to see him call so weak, but pot sized pretty much demanded it, plus he knows jam should shut out the douche.

If I have a specific read, I post it.  I have around 4 regular places I play, many of the same regs go to each.  Playing the sameish stakes, at different venues.  So against the specific regs I play I have played many many hours, countless hands.  You get a pretty good vibe for the flow of their game, the level of confidence/anticipation they give off within a hand.  Just literally a ton of things.  How they look at their hand, card handling, chip handling, bet sizing, how chips are put in, how they announce their bet.  But beyond this I have very specific tells on each of them.

If I didnt know the player, or have a particular read within a hand I've posted, i simply wouldnt include my read.  I'd just put out a bet that I'd hope to be called by a range. 

So I'm not talking hands vs random guy with three pints of lager in him that I've never met.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Shocked TAG called this, shame to miss:

I find it hilarious that you post this on the clinic, seemingly for advice, then insult everyone that disagrees with your thinking. Seriously? If you're throwing insults at YB, for example, I would lay money that he's a far more successful poker player than you, who absolutely knows a lot more about the game. Nothing against you or your game, he knows way more than I do, or most on this site for that matter- he's a very fine player. I'm sure he knows exactly what table dynamics are and how they affect decisions. Here though, you have a guy who you label as a TAG making a totally standard 2.75x raise. Based on that, and NOTHING else, you've somehow deduced he probably has 8's/9's as opposed to kings or aces? Or any number of random aces/kings? Based on ONE raise?  FWIW, I like the jam. It's a rainbow board, you're open ended and if anyone's hit a part of the board, you've got overs and the straight draw- great times. If he does have the overpair and calls, you've still got that 30% equity in the draw, and you obviously get a huge amount of folds. In all honesty, if you want to post for advice, accept the advice, and if you think someone's wrong, question them. Ask for their reasoning. Don't tell them they don't know what they're talking about. I have my suspicions you're just trolling, if so- great job. I bit.
Posted by DeucesLive

Not insuling anyone.  Just stating that it's kind of rude to just ignore the nature of the post and attack a read.  But this aside my post wasnt a reaction to one thing, but similar things through many threads of a similar ilk.

So it may seem an over reaction to you, but it isnt.  But again you dont know a thing about me, yet you make this other grand assumption.  I am simply tired of people posting comments that have little to do with the thread, attacking elements of the thread that they know very little about.

Yes the thread was opinions on the jam, not egotistically attacking a read. 

DeucesLive

Ok, not trying to be funny here, but let's look directly at your reads then-

a) player is TAG (opens with K5)

b) player is TAG (calls allin from tight player on 345 board)

c) TAG player is probably on overpair to the board, 8's or 9's, but not kings or aces based on read (ends up having K5)

Again, I'm not trying to be funny, but perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your reads, and how you arrived at them. Because your TAG player sounds anything but. IMHO.

You're assuming that people are simply glossing over all the finer details when they're actually probably taking them all in fairly automatically, so automatically there's no need to mention it.

And, as far as the jam goes, I like it. Unless they have a pair of 8's or higher, you're in fantastic shape should you get called- unless you're major unlucky and they hit 2 pair or set- unlikely to say the least. Would make the same play next time.

grantorino

I accept you can have reads, not that you can narrow him to 2 hands on the basis of a single raise preflop

This hand shows your reads arent always good. You put him on an overpair and thought he might fold. He called with TP (a 5!)GK

Use your reads, but imo you narrow ranges far too much on very little basis. Take your reads,tells etc as part of the picture, not the be all and end all of how to play the han

Also, as I said to you on another thread if the hand is that read based there is very little to gain from posting it on a forum 

N1CK

what i want to know is how you put him on 88/99 and he cant have AA/KK .......but he can have K5

N1CK

In Response to Re: Shocked TAG called this, shame to miss:

He is TAG and my image really is that tight, on this occassion he put me on the draw correctly though.  Likely the jam gave it away.  But even still, he knows he's flipping on the call so was still surprising to see him call so weak, but pot sized pretty much demanded it, plus he knows jam should shut out the douche. If I have a specific read, I post it.  I have around 4 regular places I play, many of the same regs go to each.  Playing the sameish stakes, at different venues.  So against the specific regs I play I have played many many hours, countless hands.  You get a pretty good vibe for the flow of their game, the level of confidence/anticipation they give off within a hand.  Just literally a ton of things.  How they look at their hand, card handling, chip handling, bet sizing, how chips are put in, how they announce their bet.  But beyond this I have very specific tells on each of them. If I didnt know the player, or have a particular read within a hand I've posted, i simply wouldnt include my read.  I'd just put out a bet that I'd hope to be called by a range.  So I'm not talking hands vs random guy with three pints of lager in him that I've never met.
Posted by AMYBR

hes not a TAG hes a donkey and if hes played 1000s of hands with you like you say then he knows your one too. so forget about your table image for that particular night

LOL_RAISE

firstly, fold pre. we are 65bbs deep and palying 8high oop vs a TAG just isnt going to be profitable.

secondly, why are there 25p denomination chips in a .50/1 live game?!?!!?!?!?!?

and finally, the thing that i find frustrating about some of the threads you post is that you post a hand, with quite minimal detail about opponents other than something like 'hes a TAG, im a TAG, everyone else is terrible'.

then replies are posted based on the assumption that we dont have any reads or tells on him because none were given in the original post.

you come back into the thread and say that you have reads on villain which mean you think he has XYZ hands only in his range.

i dont think you will ever get good advice in the threads that you make unless you actually put your reads in the original post

dantb10

If you have the villain so well marked that u can narrow his entire range down to 2 hands 88/99 then why would you ever want to put yourself in this stupid position where you are trying to make him fold an overpair when u have hardly any chippies and very few made/flopped nut hands?

Surely u can just school the sh it out of him with soul reads and play almost 100% perfectly against him if u can narrow his range to 2 poket pairs just by looking at him?