also, if he's exuding as many reads as you say, I really really doubt he's anything like good enough to fold an overpair to the board. People who give off that many tells =/= good.
Fair point, I should have included in more detail my knowledge of that particular player in origonal post.
Yes not the best call pre, but getting nearly 5/1 last to act with suited gappers (6d8d) seems like a fair deal to me.
Guy is very TAG, on this occassion it was a complete mis read by me. He was really deep, so his range had obviously opened up measureably. I infact made a comment to him at the time stating as much. But I guarentee if you played big pots post where he was active you'd mostly come off on the wrong side of it. I did put him on that particular range of hand, however, given odds, it was mainly immaterial what his holdings were. I just put the read out there to explain my though process at the time. He wasnt the core of the dynamic either. There's still an opening bet, my raise and two people left to act behind me. My hand pretty much plays itself stack wise/action wise. I simply put the read out there, as a small part of the thread. Opponents holding were of minimal concern since i was sat so shallow at this point, as long as knowone holds 67, I'm not crushed by any hand that calls. I think it was clear I was looking for opinions on the shove. I was simply a bit taken back that this player took this line with that hand, given flop action. Perhaps I do need to re evaluate him overall though, as someone mentioned.
But lastly the main reason i spat my dummy out a little was that if someone posted a read within a thread, I'd simply accept it as is. They were sat at the table, understanding the dynamic and action seen. Attacking it really is needlesly critical and pretty arrogant. Its just trying to ridicule somebody elses though process needlessly. Whether their read is wrong or right.
Nice to see you havent lost your touch with people bud Always have been a touchy sod (friends Mod).
As a rule your right about the TAG player mate. But he knows exactly what your opinion is of him, then goes right ahead and punishes you with it. He 3 bets you and you fold pretty much every time. He knows that you know there are easier targets and milks the image. You should put him to the test a little more.
Nice to see you havent lost your touch with people bud Always have been a touchy sod (friends Mod). As a rule your right about the TAG player mate. But he knows exactly what your opinion is of him, then goes right ahead and punishes you with it. He 3 bets you and you fold pretty much every time. He knows that you know there are easier targets and milks the image. You should put him to the test a little more. Posted by ilove2h8pr
There is likely truth in this overall. But it adds to why he's such a good player bud. I dont neccessarily fold to the 3 bet for the reasons you think though. I know that he likely does do what you say, the issue is discerning which it is, the 3 bet strong or 3 bet knowing I'm only strong enough to raise. Either way this guy isnt going to make it easy on you post, especially OOP.
The main reason I fold is I'm happy to lull him into a habit of doing this - believing I'll fold. Allowing me to win a big deepstack pot later on, which often becomes the case. As good as he is, he drinks more than he should at the table, his mistakes are made later on.
you asked whether it was a good shove so what you thought his range was is a pretty important part of the thread imo, which is why I brought up your reads.
also if you know his game well enough to be able to soulread him, then maybe he soulread you for 86s too.
I may have been slightly out of line in reply to your post yesterday for which I apologise. Likely too over defensive. Could have been avoided if I'd put more detail in OP. Written word easy to misinterpret.
The second his chips went in he said he put me on the draw, not the specific 6/8 but specific enough. So he obv had a good enough read on the goals of my jam.
Funnily enough played against this guy early this morning again. 50p/£1 5 handed NLHE.
Was about 3am, I had about £220, he has around £350. Guy raises CO to £3.50, I call on the button with KcQc, "TAG" calls from the BB. K58r £11 in pot. BB checks opener makes it £4.5, I dont think he's strong so make £13. TAG in the BB asks for a count and bets £65. I already felt the opener would fold which he does, leaving me with a decision. Been 3 bet by the TAG again. I feel like he's stepped out a little, I shove. To my horror he INSTA calls. He says "I have (a) K", flipping K9, I'm pretty shocked at how weak he is with the three bet.
I win, he grumbles that I slow rolled him on the flop, making it look like I had a descision before I jammed. I explain that I DID have a decision, he must know I have (a) K,that isnt going to be weaker than the K9, that i wouldn't even be in the pot with a hand that weak or weaker, so when he 3 bets me the least I can really be putting him on is 2pr....He asks me to explain again, not really comprehending what I'm saying.
To be honest mate I think you got lucky here. Your logic is abit inside out. Just as he shouldnt be 3betting you that weak, there's no way this side of chrismas you should be 4bet jamming that relatively weak. The hands that he would be 3betting there makes the 4bet insane. Fine with your read that he was "stepping out", but far more likely ON THIS OCCASION he just had to much beer in him.
I promise he knew exactly what you meant in the post hand grumble.
Nice to see you havent lost your touch with people bud Always have been a touchy sod (friends Mod). As a rule your right about the TAG player mate. But he knows exactly what your opinion is of him, then goes right ahead and punishes you with it. He 3 bets you and you fold pretty much every time. He knows that you know there are easier targets and milks the image. You should put him to the test a little more. Posted by ilove2h8pr
Hypocrisy thy name is you I think bud.
But there is truth to what you say, had to think when he beat me into the pot he had the set I potentially feared.
I explain that I DID have a decision, he must know I have (a) K,that isnt going to be weaker than the K9, that i wouldn't even be in the pot with a hand that weak or weaker, so when he 3 bets me the least I can really be putting him on is 2pr....He asks me to explain again, not really comprehending what I'm saying. Silly me Posted by AMYBR
DONT EVER DO THIS. just say 'ul bud' and readjust your read from 'TAG' to 'fish who goes broke with top pair deep'
He knows you have to have a hand here yet still three bets you. It was a serious error on his part. That "Put him to the test more" was meant for pre flop hands. I've seen you fold AK to him, from a standard three bet, I just dont get it. You push everyone else around, pick up the largest pots the nights I'm there yet you AVOID HIM LIKE THE BLEEDING PLAGUE!! It just doesnt make sense. Why be fearless of all but 1 guy?? Anyone else there you 4bet EVERYTIME, but you likely fold face up. Its does not make sense.
In Response to Re: Shocked TAG called this, shame to miss : DONT EVER DO THIS. just say 'ul bud' and readjust your read from 'TAG' to 'fish who goes broke with top pair deep' Posted by LOL_RAISE
Truly any other player I wouldnt. We have some history, pooling our funds playing $50 MTT's together online (not colluding - playing joint. I felt he'd balance out my game a little.) before I branched out on my own.
Didnt like the idea that he thought I'd slowrolled him. Think his game is going backwards.
Just a totally different scenario!! He knows you have to have a hand here yet still three bets you. It was a serious error on his part. That "Put him to the test more" was meant for pre flop hands. I've seen you fold AK to him, from a standard three bet, I just dont get it. You push everyone else around, pick up the largest pots the nights I'm there yet you AVOID HIM LIKE THE BLEEDING PLAGUE!! It just doesnt make sense. Why be fearless of all but 1 guy?? Anyone else there you 4bet EVERYTIME, but you likely fold face up. Its does not make sense. Posted by ilove2h8pr
It makes perfect sense bud, you answer it in your post. I do go out of my way to avoid him like the plague simple. He is the one player at the table that I dont feel like I have an advantage over. Ordinarily I know his 3 bet range is significantly stronger than the others. I like to take the path of least resistance, frankly speaking , he isnt it.
I'm going to be watching over the next few weeks to see whats going on with him.
But either way "bud", you probably benefit more than anyone from my good runs, so I'd appreciate a little less grief.
Seriously mate, have you ever wanted me to be a YES man?
Fine your a living Legend, I dont know how your not as successful as you dream of being..its an injustice of galactic proportions
OR
If you shut down your obsessive brain, took some BR guidance.....took any guidance instead of dismissing it out of hand you may get the success that you probably are good enough for!
I actually said I thought he was stepping out, with modest holdings. I'm not calling £65, then folding to a creative bet IP, ie he jams 1st to act on an unknown turn card.
I'm in or out on the flop.
When he grumbled post hand I said that was the type of hand he'd need. But given action up to that point I cant put him on any real hand other than a low set which I wasnt buying, plus he's played dubiously for a while.
Why raise the c-bet? I dont understand the question tbh, why wouldnt I? I need to see where my hand is, I still have a player to act. If I flat and 3rd player flats behind, I go to the turn with no more information than I had on the flop. I take control of the hand, which is a big part of my game. I'm sat deep enough that raise folding to serious action is more beneficial than flatting three streets, if I come to the conclusion I'm behind.
I know you said you thought villain was weak then you said "so when he 3 bets me the least I can really be putting him on is 2pr". I'll take that as me misreading what you meant though, and thats just you talking to him so whatever.
As hand played out you played it perfectly, not sure your reasoning is correct though
Ok you flop TPGK on pretty dry board. Guy cbets, you think he is weak. You raise? Why? He usually folds, it makes it easier for villain to fold worse hands behind. You can raise with read one of them continues with worse more often than better, fine, but that doesnt seem to be your read before hand, and if they are behind there are few bad turn cards for you so I think flatting is better
When TAG cold 3bets you his range crushes you, you have some sort of read that says he is weak and you go with it, which is fine imo. It depends a lot on how he views you and with your penchant for shoving draws shoving may well be best, but calling with those stacksizes is a valid option too, especially in position.You should do whichever is most likely to get his stack in, if you flat get it in on any turn.
I have no idea what you mean by taking "control" of hand but if villain flats behind you are good vast majority of time. Raising is only good if you are ahead of the range they continue with, which with reads you have in this hand seems unlikely to me. Gaining initiative can help, but not at the expense of inflating the pot against a range we are a dog against. Same goes for information, theres no point paying for it if the info it gives you is you are beat
In answer to your early question if it is HU pot I may flat. But the two guys in the pot likely percieve my flat as strength. I can see your POV completely, but I am happy to inflate pot here, against a range of hands. But most importantly for me, I want information.
Example being I flat to extract value on later streets, as it seems you suggest, BB flats behind me. So pot would stand at £34.5. Meaning if weak opener opens again he opens for a bet in the range of £22, but most likely is in check fold mode after two calls, But say he does open again, (which he wouldnt) -holding 6-s- the pot gains momentum and potentially is difficult to manage, especially as theirs a player behind, which I have no more information on at the turn than I did at the flop (if I flat). Any raise I make at the turn is subject to the player behind, who clearly has more than two napkins after calling a bet and a call.
Without the moderate raise on the flop, I cannot put the player behind on a hand. I need to know the acton I'm likely to face. The raise on the flop produces this cheaper, by far than the raise on the turn., plus I DO NOT GIVE THE FREE/CHEAP CARD. I do not believe in this in any way shape or form.
As the hand is played I somehow draw in the weaker K, I 'm folding in an instant in his spot.
Your are completely right in your comment that his 3 bet crushes me in most instances. But utterly wrong in your comment about my penchant for shoving draws. I assume your conclusion for this comes from the shallow shove with 86, and advice given in other thread to 5c8c. Sat deep, for reasonable stakes, utterly different.
I didnt put him on 2pr or a set, for once I didnt really put him on any concrete hand I wasnt beating. The 2pr comment (as you say) comes from the post hand analysis, where I said that was the hand he OUGHT to be betting.
Your last comment. If we dont raise we have no indication of where we are in the hand going to the turn against two opponents. I do not make a habit of needing to fade two players outs to win a pot. You talk of inflating the pot when potentially being a dog in the hand. Without raising (asking the question) we dont know if we infact are the dog, leaving the only option being paying off three streets of value to set/2pr/AK. The moderate raise, cheaply on the flop adds an extra bet that gives the information we need heading into later streets, but adding value against bad calls with the weaker hands.
As always there are more than two ways to skin a cat. I'm not playing this hand slow vs two opponents. The extra bet adds value, adds info, protects against unseen draws. The flat to induce action just makes no sense to me bud. I understand the approach, just isnt where I opt to take the hand.
Yeah meant to take that bit about shoving draws out, I meant once he 3bets and you decide you are continuing your decision to flat or raise should be based on which is more likely to get his stack across line, a shove may look weaker if he has seen you shove draws before (albeit in different situation)
what info do you gain when either 1 or both villains flat your flop raise (or when they 3bet it)? How many outs do villains have against you? You are ahead of their ranges with TPGK if you raise it should be for value from worse hands
If one or both Opponents flat flop raise, then yes no real added info, however is inflating pot. I'd be moderately more concerned with two flats, likely proceeding with more caution moving forward in the hand.
In this event my 4 bet wasnt designed that specifically. When Opponent 3 bets flop I have to admit I'm not fully sure where I am. However If I do flat, I'm pot stuck at turn, but I am in position.
Frankly speaking, if I'm going to make a mistake in the hand I want to make it now. Yes backwards logic. I dont bluff, I dont slow play all but a slim range. The games I play, there's no point, your getting action. Pretty much went with the old online maxim WIDRR (when in doubt re raise).
Comments
Yes not the best call pre, but getting nearly 5/1 last to act with suited gappers (6d8d) seems like a fair deal to me.
Guy is very TAG, on this occassion it was a complete mis read by me. He was really deep, so his range had obviously opened up measureably. I infact made a comment to him at the time stating as much. But I guarentee if you played big pots post where he was active you'd mostly come off on the wrong side of it. I did put him on that particular range of hand, however, given odds, it was mainly immaterial what his holdings were. I just put the read out there to explain my though process at the time. He wasnt the core of the dynamic either. There's still an opening bet, my raise and two people left to act behind me. My hand pretty much plays itself stack wise/action wise. I simply put the read out there, as a small part of the thread. Opponents holding were of minimal concern since i was sat so shallow at this point, as long as knowone holds 67, I'm not crushed by any hand that calls. I think it was clear I was looking for opinions on the shove. I was simply a bit taken back that this player took this line with that hand, given flop action. Perhaps I do need to re evaluate him overall though, as someone mentioned.
But lastly the main reason i spat my dummy out a little was that if someone posted a read within a thread, I'd simply accept it as is. They were sat at the table, understanding the dynamic and action seen. Attacking it really is needlesly critical and pretty arrogant. Its just trying to ridicule somebody elses though process needlessly. Whether their read is wrong or right.
As a rule your right about the TAG player mate. But he knows exactly what your opinion is of him, then goes right ahead and punishes you with it. He 3 bets you and you fold pretty much every time. He knows that you know there are easier targets and milks the image. You should put him to the test a little more.
There is likely truth in this overall. But it adds to why he's such a good player bud. I dont neccessarily fold to the 3 bet for the reasons you think though. I know that he likely does do what you say, the issue is discerning which it is, the 3 bet strong or 3 bet knowing I'm only strong enough to raise. Either way this guy isnt going to make it easy on you post, especially OOP.
The main reason I fold is I'm happy to lull him into a habit of doing this - believing I'll fold. Allowing me to win a big deepstack pot later on, which often becomes the case. As good as he is, he drinks more than he should at the table, his mistakes are made later on.
also if you know his game well enough to be able to soulread him, then maybe he soulread you for 86s too.
The second his chips went in he said he put me on the draw, not the specific 6/8 but specific enough. So he obv had a good enough read on the goals of my jam.
Was about 3am, I had about £220, he has around £350. Guy raises CO to £3.50, I call on the button with KcQc, "TAG" calls from the BB.
K58r £11 in pot. BB checks opener makes it £4.5, I dont think he's strong so make £13. TAG in the BB asks for a count and bets £65. I already felt the opener would fold which he does, leaving me with a decision. Been 3 bet by the TAG again. I feel like he's stepped out a little, I shove. To my horror he INSTA calls. He says "I have (a) K", flipping K9, I'm pretty shocked at how weak he is with the three bet.
I win, he grumbles that I slow rolled him on the flop, making it look like I had a descision before I jammed. I explain that I DID have a decision, he must know I have (a) K,that isnt going to be weaker than the K9, that i wouldn't even be in the pot with a hand that weak or weaker, so when he 3 bets me the least I can really be putting him on is 2pr....He asks me to explain again, not really comprehending what I'm saying.
Silly me
I promise he knew exactly what you meant in the post hand grumble.
Hypocrisy thy name is you I think bud.
But there is truth to what you say, had to think when he beat me into the pot he had the set I potentially feared.
DONT EVER DO THIS. just say 'ul bud' and readjust your read from 'TAG' to 'fish who goes broke with top pair deep'
He knows you have to have a hand here yet still three bets you. It was a serious error on his part. That "Put him to the test more" was meant for pre flop hands. I've seen you fold AK to him, from a standard three bet, I just dont get it. You push everyone else around, pick up the largest pots the nights I'm there yet you AVOID HIM LIKE THE BLEEDING PLAGUE!! It just doesnt make sense. Why be fearless of all but 1 guy?? Anyone else there you 4bet EVERYTIME, but you likely fold face up. Its does not make sense.
Truly any other player I wouldnt. We have some history, pooling our funds playing $50 MTT's together online (not colluding - playing joint. I felt he'd balance out my game a little.) before I branched out on my own.
Didnt like the idea that he thought I'd slowrolled him. Think his game is going backwards.
It makes perfect sense bud, you answer it in your post. I do go out of my way to avoid him like the plague simple. He is the one player at the table that I dont feel like I have an advantage over. Ordinarily I know his 3 bet range is significantly stronger than the others. I like to take the path of least resistance, frankly speaking , he isnt it.
I'm going to be watching over the next few weeks to see whats going on with him.
But either way "bud", you probably benefit more than anyone from my good runs, so I'd appreciate a little less grief.
Fine your a living Legend, I dont know how your not as successful as you dream of being..its an injustice of galactic proportions
OR
If you shut down your obsessive brain, took some BR guidance.....took any guidance instead of dismissing it out of hand you may get the success that you probably are good enough for!
You know its true mate.
Why are you shoving over 3bet if you think "tag" has at least 2 pair?
I actually said I thought he was stepping out, with modest holdings. I'm not calling £65, then folding to a creative bet IP, ie he jams 1st to act on an unknown turn card.
I'm in or out on the flop.
When he grumbled post hand I said that was the type of hand he'd need. But given action up to that point I cant put him on any real hand other than a low set which I wasnt buying, plus he's played dubiously for a while.
Why raise the c-bet? I dont understand the question tbh, why wouldnt I? I need to see where my hand is, I still have a player to act. If I flat and 3rd player flats behind, I go to the turn with no more information than I had on the flop. I take control of the hand, which is a big part of my game. I'm sat deep enough that raise folding to serious action is more beneficial than flatting three streets, if I come to the conclusion I'm behind.
I know you said you thought villain was weak then you said "so when he 3 bets me the least I can really be putting him on is 2pr". I'll take that as me misreading what you meant though, and thats just you talking to him so whatever.
As hand played out you played it perfectly, not sure your reasoning is correct though
Ok you flop TPGK on pretty dry board. Guy cbets, you think he is weak. You raise? Why? He usually folds, it makes it easier for villain to fold worse hands behind. You can raise with read one of them continues with worse more often than better, fine, but that doesnt seem to be your read before hand, and if they are behind there are few bad turn cards for you so I think flatting is better
When TAG cold 3bets you his range crushes you, you have some sort of read that says he is weak and you go with it, which is fine imo. It depends a lot on how he views you and with your penchant for shoving draws shoving may well be best, but calling with those stacksizes is a valid option too, especially in position.You should do whichever is most likely to get his stack in, if you flat get it in on any turn.
I have no idea what you mean by taking "control" of hand but if villain flats behind you are good vast majority of time. Raising is only good if you are ahead of the range they continue with, which with reads you have in this hand seems unlikely to me. Gaining initiative can help, but not at the expense of inflating the pot against a range we are a dog against. Same goes for information, theres no point paying for it if the info it gives you is you are beat
In answer to your early question if it is HU pot I may flat. But the two guys in the pot likely percieve my flat as strength. I can see your POV completely, but I am happy to inflate pot here, against a range of hands. But most importantly for me, I want information.
Example being I flat to extract value on later streets, as it seems you suggest, BB flats behind me. So pot would stand at £34.5. Meaning if weak opener opens again he opens for a bet in the range of £22, but most likely is in check fold mode after two calls, But say he does open again, (which he wouldnt) -holding 6-s- the pot gains momentum and potentially is difficult to manage, especially as theirs a player behind, which I have no more information on at the turn than I did at the flop (if I flat). Any raise I make at the turn is subject to the player behind, who clearly has more than two napkins after calling a bet and a call.
Without the moderate raise on the flop, I cannot put the player behind on a hand. I need to know the acton I'm likely to face. The raise on the flop produces this cheaper, by far than the raise on the turn., plus I DO NOT GIVE THE FREE/CHEAP CARD. I do not believe in this in any way shape or form.
As the hand is played I somehow draw in the weaker K, I 'm folding in an instant in his spot.
Your are completely right in your comment that his 3 bet crushes me in most instances. But utterly wrong in your comment about my penchant for shoving draws. I assume your conclusion for this comes from the shallow shove with 86, and advice given in other thread to 5c8c. Sat deep, for reasonable stakes, utterly different.
I didnt put him on 2pr or a set, for once I didnt really put him on any concrete hand I wasnt beating. The 2pr comment (as you say) comes from the post hand analysis, where I said that was the hand he OUGHT to be betting.
Your last comment. If we dont raise we have no indication of where we are in the hand going to the turn against two opponents. I do not make a habit of needing to fade two players outs to win a pot. You talk of inflating the pot when potentially being a dog in the hand. Without raising (asking the question) we dont know if we infact are the dog, leaving the only option being paying off three streets of value to set/2pr/AK. The moderate raise, cheaply on the flop adds an extra bet that gives the information we need heading into later streets, but adding value against bad calls with the weaker hands.
As always there are more than two ways to skin a cat. I'm not playing this hand slow vs two opponents. The extra bet adds value, adds info, protects against unseen draws. The flat to induce action just makes no sense to me bud. I understand the approach, just isnt where I opt to take the hand.
Yeah meant to take that bit about shoving draws out, I meant once he 3bets and you decide you are continuing your decision to flat or raise should be based on which is more likely to get his stack across line, a shove may look weaker if he has seen you shove draws before (albeit in different situation)
what info do you gain when either 1 or both villains flat your flop raise (or when they 3bet it)? How many outs do villains have against you? You are ahead of their ranges with TPGK if you raise it should be for value from worse hands
In this event my 4 bet wasnt designed that specifically. When Opponent 3 bets flop I have to admit I'm not fully sure where I am. However If I do flat, I'm pot stuck at turn, but I am in position.
Frankly speaking, if I'm going to make a mistake in the hand I want to make it now. Yes backwards logic. I dont bluff, I dont slow play all but a slim range. The games I play, there's no point, your getting action. Pretty much went with the old online maxim WIDRR (when in doubt re raise).
Beginning to enjoy our banter now