I think I've pretty comprehensively covered all aspects of this.
Am simply offering an alternate line vs micro stakes players. I would simply look to manage my variance here where possible for stacks.
We dont need to fill, but we can (and will) get called here with only 60% equity off flop. So we are 60/40, />48/52 (vs Ah2/4x) or <70/30 (made hand) for our stack which is over 100 BBs with 1BB invested. Shipping stack off flop with opponents having high equity when we have marginal edge (at best) is bad to me.
In a multi way limped pot at these stakes, where Ah or Kh or 8h (as seen 3bets flop) arent going anywhere I would happily trade the percieved 12% edge to keep every one in and fill up on value 1/3, losing the min when heart binks and felting everyone when filling.
Have not said getting it in is wrong. Am simply saying I would play it slower, looking to capitalise on multiway and protecting myself vs high equity hands. Our hand strength is not that strong here relative to board and action.
I might be wrong here but I thought cash was exactly about that - marginal edges. If you're bankrolled enough then you can play these marginal edges because you will win long term. Like surely if you have 99 against KQ, you are a favourite (even though it's very marginal) so surely you should happily play for stacks having 99 against KQ 100 times in a row, because you will make profit long term.
I thought cash was all about pushing your edges (as redmond says) because you can always reload in cash, so if you're favourite, you're favourite, regardless of if it's 80/20 or 60/40 (obviously if the pot odds are correct)
I think I've pretty comprehensively covered all aspects of this. Am simply offering an alternate line vs micro stakes players. I would simply look to manage my variance here where possible for stacks. We dont need to fill, but we can (and will) get called here with only 60% equity off flop. So we are 60/40, />48/52 (vs Ah2/4x) or <70/30 (made hand) for our stack which is over 100 BBs with 1BB invested. Shipping stack off flop with opponents having high equity when we have marginal edge (at best) is bad to me. In a multi way limped pot at these stakes, where Ah or Kh or 8h (as seen 3bets flop) arent going anywhere I would happily trade the percieved 12% edge to keep every one in and fill up on value 1/3, losing the min when heart binks and felting everyone when filling. Have not said getting it in is wrong. Am simply saying I would play it slower, looking to capitalise on multiway and protecting myself vs high equity hands. Our hand strength is not that strong here relative to board and action. Posted by AMYBR
You gotta add all these together and calculate our equity against his range, which goes into "combos" and all that tosh.
I tried doing it on stove yesterday but I've never done a post flop range before and couldn't figure out the suits and stuff. It looked too complicated so I gave up.
I might be wrong here but I thought cash was exactly about that - marginal edges. If you're bankrolled enough then you can play these marginal edges because you will win long term. Like surely if you have 99 against KQ, you are a favourite (even though it's very marginal) so surely you should happily play for stacks having 99 against KQ 100 times in a row, because you will make profit long term. I thought cash was all about pushing your edges (as redmond says) because you can always reload in cash, so if you're favourite, you're favourite, regardless of if it's 80/20 or 60/40 (obviously if the pot odds are correct) Posted by Lambert180
This is mostly true. But there other aspects to think of. As said from the beginning, I am talking of myself and the way I manage variance. I also mentioned that my lines are geared more towards one table live play, where you are capitalising and reserving on every hand. This marginal edge approach is a fine approach, but its not the only one. We dont have to make it the only one we use. We can lay down hands to big draws without it being wrong. Have never said getting it in on flop is wrong, have never said I'd fold. Have simply said that I would take a more passive line vs high equity hands that will call off their stack on flop, trading for the multiway value when filling, while losing the min when binking, yet calling right price at turn to redraw.
Thing is if your playing a game vs a lot of people who go broke very easily why take flips? When your skill level gives you a pretty significant advantage and you can happily get it in at 80/20+ a few orbits later why gamble? When you have 1BB without significant edge why lose the reigns on this pot when you know they'll all follow you over the cliff? If I had more invested in this spot its a no brainer. If I felt that I could push people off hands its a no brainer. But given the miniscule investment in pot and likelyhood of being called for stacks vs high equity hands I dont see the point.
JJs @ £2/4 vs AhKs, BonB HU. Opponent has £1000 we have £1000. Guy shoves AK showing hand face up. I'm happy to fold J's. By the logic you propose this should be a snap for the 2% edge. In principal I guess its right, but what'd be the point?
Infact I dont agree that cash is about happily flipping with marginal edges, but that just me. Quite possibly wrong, but thats not how I like to play.
like the thinking amybr. i think the way your suggesting is "playing poker" rather than "playing the odds". ob the 2 do meld, but like you say if we feel the edge you have over people is more than the 2% flip, then why flip! phil
To the original hand, shove flop when it comes back around. Ok with the open limp if the table is super loose passive (hardly ever a squeeze, lots of limpers behind). Looks like the table is so I'm fine with it.
To put it in a more catchy way: Want set, get set, shove.
Briefly read up and I have to say, while I can understand and agree with the mentality of avoiding 60/40 races in a tournament in some situations, to avoid a 60/40 flip on a cash table is burning money. It's just math.
Comments
Am simply offering an alternate line vs micro stakes players. I would simply look to manage my variance here where possible for stacks.
We dont need to fill, but we can (and will) get called here with only 60% equity off flop. So we are 60/40, />48/52 (vs Ah2/4x) or <70/30 (made hand) for our stack which is over 100 BBs with 1BB invested. Shipping stack off flop with opponents having high equity when we have marginal edge (at best) is bad to me.
In a multi way limped pot at these stakes, where Ah or Kh or 8h (as seen 3bets flop) arent going anywhere I would happily trade the percieved 12% edge to keep every one in and fill up on value 1/3, losing the min when heart binks and felting everyone when filling.
Have not said getting it in is wrong. Am simply saying I would play it slower, looking to capitalise on multiway and protecting myself vs high equity hands. Our hand strength is not that strong here relative to board and action.
I thought cash was all about pushing your edges (as redmond says) because you can always reload in cash, so if you're favourite, you're favourite, regardless of if it's 80/20 or 60/40 (obviously if the pot odds are correct)
Thing is if your playing a game vs a lot of people who go broke very easily why take flips? When your skill level gives you a pretty significant advantage and you can happily get it in at 80/20+ a few orbits later why gamble? When you have 1BB without significant edge why lose the reigns on this pot when you know they'll all follow you over the cliff? If I had more invested in this spot its a no brainer. If I felt that I could push people off hands its a no brainer. But given the miniscule investment in pot and likelyhood of being called for stacks vs high equity hands I dont see the point.
JJs @ £2/4 vs AhKs, BonB HU. Opponent has £1000 we have £1000. Guy shoves AK showing hand face up. I'm happy to fold J's. By the logic you propose this should be a snap for the 2% edge. In principal I guess its right, but what'd be the point?
Infact I dont agree that cash is about happily flipping with marginal edges, but that just me. Quite possibly wrong, but thats not how I like to play.
To the original hand, shove flop when it comes back around. Ok with the open limp if the table is super loose passive (hardly ever a squeeze, lots of limpers behind). Looks like the table is so I'm fine with it.
To put it in a more catchy way: Want set, get set, shove.
Briefly read up and I have to say, while I can understand and agree with the mentality of avoiding 60/40 races in a tournament in some situations, to avoid a 60/40 flip on a cash table is burning money. It's just math.