In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Enjoying this debate but gotta go out now, will continue when I get back. Not really a big of fan of calling just to hit though, we don't hit often enough. IMO we miss and have to fold to a c-bet on the flop more than when we have to 3bet/fold, and 3betting gives us power on the flop to a call as well as sometimes taking down the pot pre. Then there are the times when we hit and are behind, they tend to smart a little. Happens more with more players in. Posted by TommyD
Tommy,
If we put him on a very narrow range when he opens are we not flatting to hit flop big because when we do we are more likely to get his stack. Yes obviously we miss a lot of time so yes it coould be a leak over time. But are we not flatting here with a pocker pair for the same result.
@Tommy - I think this is coming down to a question of risk aversion and knowing the villain's range.
Personally I'm not happy getting into a 3-bet pot with AJ vs a "typical" reg UTG range of say 22+,AJs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo which we're a 6:4 dog against preflop and of which 75% can very happily c-bet a 9 high flop!
That **** shorty in the SB would really put me off a 3-bet too.
IMHO this is micro stakes - keep it simple, 3 bet for value and AJ just isn't strong enough!! I look forward to having my unbalanced 3-betting range exploited if I ever make it to 20p NL
I just don't see the benefit in 3-betting with a hand like AJ, it's not recommended in anything I've come across for the reasons I've stated above. From p307 of Kill Everyone, the section on short handed online cash games:
"If you 3-bet preflop, you should try and make sure that you've either done so with a hand that you're highly confident is best or a hand you're sure is not. Marginal hands, such as AJ, play very badly in big pots!"
If an A comes and he plays ball he could have AQ, AK, you don't know, that's why I wouldn't 3-bet with AJ.
against a nitty reg you cant 3bet AJ for value here. Nothing worse calls, lots of regs flatting range oop is close to non existant. 3bet bluffing may be an option as he may fold pps and AQ. If he calls lots with pps purely to setmine you can 3bet and cbet all flops pretty profitably
Its all dependent on table dynamic. I generally would flat readless, but sometimes its a fold, sometimes its a 3bet
dn does makes dude look like a loose cannon. opening range is small very small. aj dont even hit the bottom of his range from my notes. Posted by pod1
Yep this ties in perfect with my 1st post on this thread , i got him down as a very gd reg at this level , i said b4 there are about 6 regs at this level that ya gotta be very careful against and he is 1 of em
PS i'd luv to know what some regs at nl20 have in their notes on me )
Sometimes the basic approach of playing opposite is possibly the right move, ie 3 bet. I fail to see how he opens with only such a narrow range a point huuume refers to. Obviously oppo's 3 bet range is very narrow and even more so his 4 bet range.
We can win this hand pre or on the flop if he flats OOP. We are not playing our cards here, a fact you must be aware of when the flop comes J or A high, or even 2 pr.
Sometimes the basic approach of playing opposite is possibly the right move, ie 3 bet. I fail to see how he opens with only such a narrow range a point huuume refers to. Obviously oppo's 3 bet range is very narrow and even more so his 4 bet range. We can win this hand pre or on the flop if he flats OOP. We are not playing our cards here, a fact you must be aware of when the flop comes J or A high, or even 2 pr. Posted by rancid
If you read the extract I quoted above though, AJ isn't a hand that makes sense to 3-bet with here, why not just flat it, play it if A J flops, use position if it doesn't?
If you 3-bet, get called, and he leads out when an Ace flops, what do you do then?
In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : If you read the extract I quoted above though, AJ isn't a hand that makes sense to 3-bet with here, why not just flat it, play it if A J flops, use position if it doesn't? If you 3-bet, get called, and he leads out when an Ace flops, what do you do then? Posted by BigRonnieC
Forget we have AJ, infact forget the cards and look at exploiting the player by playing good poker.
If he flats the 3 bet pre and leads a ace high flop we fold. If AJ flops and he checks, we bet - if he leads we call If he 4 bets pre, we fold If he flats the 3 bet and checks, we bet
If we flat pre, which is fine then we are only looking to hit massive. We are only winning this pot one way by getting lucky. The same approach with set mining but the odds are greater than set mining meaning we miss so much it could be very leaky over time. The minimum we are hoping to flop is 2 pr, which is 50/1 compared to 8/1 to hit a set. Even if we hit two pair we may not be good, if his opening range is narrow. How do we like a AJK flop
In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Forget we have AJ, infact forget the cards and look at exploiting the player by playing good poker.
Fine, but you are bluffing and if AJ has value against his opening range I would prefer 3bet a hand with less value and flat AJ
If he flats the 3 bet pre and leads a ace high flop we fold.
He is highly unlikely to do this
If AJ flops and he checks, we bet - if he leads we call Do you mean a J hi flop? Why do we fold an A hi flop but call a J hi one? If you mean flop 2p+ obv we keep betting
If he 4 bets pre, we fold If he flats the 3 bet and checks, we bet
If we flat pre, which is fine then we are only looking to hit massive. We are only winning this pot one way by getting lucky.
Why do we have to hit in a single raised pot ip, but not when we 3bet?
The same approach with set mining but the odds are greater than set mining meaning we miss so much it could be very leaky over time. The minimum we are hoping to flop is 2 pr, which is 50/1 compared to 8/1 to hit a set. Even if we hit two pair we may not be good, if his opening range is narrow. How do we like a AJK flop Posted by rancid
Why would we need to flop 2 pair+? If we do just fold pre, but surely he opens stuff like pocket pairs KQ etc
In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Why would we need to flop 2 pair+? If we do just fold pre, but surely he opens stuff like pocket pairs KQ etc Posted by grantorino
This whole debate is based upon his opening range, so therefore if you decide to fold, flat or 3 bet this should be based upon this. If he opens a wider range then should we really flat given the vlaue in our hand is only dependant upon the flop. So therefore his opening range value is only dependant on what the oppo does and what the flop brings. So if we flat we are soley looking at the flop to win the hand. If you know this oppo will flat 3 bets OOP with a KQ/PP kind of range then why not 3 bet as we are going to be winning this hand IP the majority of the time he misses or high cards hit and we barrel or we hit anyway.
If we know he only opens QQ+ then again why would we flat, only to hit two pr or better surely or just fold seems more apt. So why would we 3 bet when his range is so narrow, yeah I see obvious pitfall where most of the time your going to be 4 bet. I think the merits of 3 betting a range wider than mentioned ie. QQ+ is far beneficial through the streets. I understand what you saying, I may aswell flat v his open range of QJ/KJ/10J where we have a vlaue hand. Plus also we don't want to 3 bet and make him fold worse. But arn't we just saying ok open wide as you like and I will call IP and we will see who hits harder )
If you sat sum1 like durrr at a table with 5 DNnumbers, how would he go about making money? Like 5 nitty 20nl regs, extremely nitty. He'd be trying to crack TT+ every single hand. How should we exploit these players? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Could you expand, exploit Durr or exploit the other five.
If you sat sum1 like durrr at a table with 5 DNnumbers, how would he go about making money? Like 5 nitty 20nl regs, extremely nitty. He'd be trying to crack TT+ every single hand. How should we exploit these players? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Well i DO get money off of these type of players , i play alot wider range bringing in as many sooted con hands and hands that usually flop well against thses type of players , and ya HAVE to be prepared to get involved when a flop comes that usually completely misses THEIR range.
In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Well i DO get money off of these type of players , i play alot wider range bringing in as many sooted con hands and hands that usually flop well against thses type of players , and ya HAVE to be prepared to get involved when a flop comes that usually completely misses THEIR range. Posted by debdobs_67
Not many flops miss a range of JJ/QQ/KK/AA/AK though
If you sat sum1 like durrr at a table with 5 DNnumbers, how would he go about making money? Like 5 nitty 20nl regs, extremely nitty. He'd be trying to crack TT+ every single hand. How should we exploit these players? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Not sure what you are implying here, is it that we should call wide and only continue when we flop pretty big?
In my experience he has loosened up a bit recently, he 3 bet me once with 77! He never used to c bet if he missed, he now sometimes does, he hasn't got 2 barrels in him though.
I think we can flat here and use our position, but he also will fold to a 3 bet OOP, not sure I can fold AJ on the button even against him. Oh it's too hard. Too many options are a prison! - YOU DECIDE!???
Well are we just exploiting by playing a wide range but more importanly a range that does not conflict with oppo range. So therefore an open, we will not be playing against this with KJ but rarther 56s.
We are also 3 betting a wider range that does not conflict with openers range.
Are we also trying to exploit the fact that the nits are trying to exploit there own image by infact opening wider so therefore we need to be opening/3 betting/4 betting wider. We could be just calling wider with ranges that do not conflict. We could also exploit our own image by being very aggro and actually turning up with the nutz instead of the combo draw
Comments
If we put him on a very narrow range when he opens are we not flatting to hit flop big because when we do we are more likely to get his stack. Yes obviously we miss a lot of time so yes it coould be a leak over time.
But are we not flatting here with a pocker pair for the same result.
I just don't see the benefit in 3-betting with a hand like AJ, it's not recommended in anything I've come across for the reasons I've stated above. From p307 of Kill Everyone, the section on short handed online cash games:
"If you 3-bet preflop, you should try and make sure that you've either done so with a hand that you're highly confident is best or a hand you're sure is not. Marginal hands, such as AJ, play very badly in big pots!"
If an A comes and he plays ball he could have AQ, AK, you don't know, that's why I wouldn't 3-bet with AJ.
Its all dependent on table dynamic. I generally would flat readless, but sometimes its a fold, sometimes its a 3bet
PS i'd luv to know what some regs at nl20 have in their notes on me
I fail to see how he opens with only such a narrow range a point huuume refers to. Obviously oppo's 3 bet range is very narrow and even more so his 4 bet range.
We can win this hand pre or on the flop if he flats OOP.
We are not playing our cards here, a fact you must be aware of when the flop comes J or A high, or even 2 pr.
If you 3-bet, get called, and he leads out when an Ace flops, what do you do then?
If he flats the 3 bet pre and leads a ace high flop we fold.
If AJ flops and he checks, we bet - if he leads we call
If he 4 bets pre, we fold
If he flats the 3 bet and checks, we bet
If we flat pre, which is fine then we are only looking to hit massive. We are only winning this pot one way by getting lucky. The same approach with set mining but the odds are greater than set mining meaning we miss so much it could be very leaky over time. The minimum we are hoping to flop is 2 pr, which is 50/1 compared to 8/1 to hit a set.
Even if we hit two pair we may not be good, if his opening range is narrow.
How do we like a AJK flop
If we know he only opens QQ+ then again why would we flat, only to hit two pr or better surely or just fold seems more apt.
So why would we 3 bet when his range is so narrow, yeah I see obvious pitfall where most of the time your going to be 4 bet. I think the merits of 3 betting a range wider than mentioned ie. QQ+ is far beneficial through the streets. I understand what you saying, I may aswell flat v his open range of QJ/KJ/10J where we have a vlaue hand. Plus also we don't want to 3 bet and make him fold worse. But arn't we just saying ok open wide as you like and I will call IP and we will see who hits harder )
It's an intresting debate
Could you expand, exploit Durr or exploit the other five.
I would find you input very helpful tbh
I think we can flat here and use our position, but he also will fold to a 3 bet OOP, not sure I can fold AJ on the button even against him. Oh it's too hard. Too many options are a prison! - YOU DECIDE!???
We are also 3 betting a wider range that does not conflict with openers range.
Are we also trying to exploit the fact that the nits are trying to exploit there own image by infact opening wider so therefore we need to be opening/3 betting/4 betting wider. We could be just calling wider with ranges that do not conflict.
We could also exploit our own image by being very aggro and actually turning up with the nutz instead of the combo draw
Or am i just talking nonsense Dohhhhh