Found this article on casinosmack, might help some people understand what antes bring to a tournament )
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If you believe having an ante is a detriment to a good tournament structure and increases the luck factor in tournaments, I have some bad news for you. You are wrong and I’d like to play with you on my left at my next tournament.
I’ve read several posts on poker forums lately. Each said basically the same thing. “I don’t like antes in poker tournaments. It increases the amount of chips I have to put into the pot each circuit. I’d rather increase the skill factor by getting to play more hands.” Well, I’m sorry to disappoint those of you who share that opinion, but I believe antes serve the exact opposite purpose. Antes are an asset to the players who know how to change gears and adapt their games to the blind structures they are playing. I would argue that antes enable the more skilled players to be more successful.
Second, when antes are involved, several skills are very useful in taking down pots – skills that are the trademark of great poker players. Let’s examine a few of the skills needed and discuss why having antes makes these skills more important.
Reading Players: Players who can sense weakness in their opponents are better prepared to take advantage of situations in which a pot warrants “taking a shot”. Reading weakness is a skill set that many players do not possess. Taking advantage of the perceived weakness is something even fewer players have the heart to do. When antes are in the pot, this skill set can pay huge dividends.
Post-Flop Play: With more in the pot pre-flop, players often get better odds to call a raise and should do so with a wider range of starting hands. This forces a player to play better post-flop. Good post-flop play is often the difference between a good player and great player.
Bet-Sizing: Players who are better at sizing their pre-flop bets tend to fair better in games with antes since there is more to win. These players understand that position may dictate different “standard” raises and are willing to size their bet in accordance with the style of players who follow them.
Aggression: Phil Gordon said it best. There are five poker truths qualities that the great poker players all possess. Number one on the list: aggression. Aggressive poker is winning poker. Antes encourage aggression and reward those who are good at knowing when to be aggressive and how to pick their spots.
So, the next time you see a blind structure that includes antes, don’t shy away from it. Embrace it. Those antes may just be your ticket to a big payday.
I’ll just update you once again on the Antes situation, then leave you to it, as the subject seems to arise frequently, with the same points being made. Good points, too, but the eyes & ears upstairs already have it on board, & have done for some time.
Hope you do not consider this abrupt, or rude, but my old Chairman, (I used to have a proper job back in the day!), who was as sharp as a tack, used to say to me, after I repeatedly made the same point, “OK Kendall, I heard you the first 200 times”…..I loved that guy, he was so bright.
So, where are Sky Poker with antes?
It is quite a complex software addition (it just is, leave it at that please), but the development work was approved a while back, & it is already in development.
They even have a scheduled target date for it, but things being what they are with software, & so much important new stuff in the same development train, dates can move, so no dates will be made known. “Soon” is relative, but it will be soon. Nothing can or will change that.
The decision has been made, the development has begun, & we have a date. Thats it.
“Priorities” have also been questioned, quite reasonably.
Same answer, really.
The priorities have to be assessed & acted upon accordingly. Items in the mix, when prioritising this, include…..
1)The amount of Tourney traffic relative to Site Traffic as a whole. In the very broadest sense, Cash poker equates to a great deal more traffic than both MTT’s & SNG’s combined.
2)A lot of the new developments in train are important to cash game poker. Where far & away most traffic is.
3)Tourney traffic is substantially up y-o-y, so the "problem" needs viewing in that context. 4)Stuff such as the totally new “Client”, Synchronised breaks, Resizeable Tables, Auto Top Up, Late Registration, & a whole host of other things are also all in the development timeline. They have dates for ALL of those things, (all soon, too), & a lot more besides.
So, all those things had to be addressed, & prioritised accordingly for the Site as a whole.
Right or wrong, it is what it is, Antes are on the way, & a date is known. I can't add much to that, really.
Sky Poker are the only party in possession of all the facts needed to assess priorities, & that is what they have done, or tried to, to the best of their ability, with all the stats & facts they have at their disposal.I hope that helps you all, & be assured, Sky Poker listen to you as much as any Online Poker site ever could, or do.
Constructive feedback will always be listened to here, & acted upon where appropriate. If they got bit wrong, well it is what it is - but ALL priorities have to be assessed & addressed.
In Response to Re: "ANTES UP" all this talk : if you want to hvae a regular 110/220/550 tournie with a BIG guarantee then you need to get a certain type of player grinding ont he site. these players will want antes. once you get these tournies on the Tuesday/Thursday/Sunday 40 tournie schedule of these kind of players then something like the 25kGTD Super Roller could become a more regular thing Posted by scotty77
Thats great if you have the bankroll to play mega tourneys! But IMO the beauty of Sky poker and 865 was it was open to all Bank Rolls! aren't Sky changing the dynamics?
Yes it will be possible to qualify from satellites but the majority of players will be from straight buy ins I miss the days where you would see Debdobs Yidette Young Gun Jennyyyy etc playing in the BH and Primo
IMO £110 tourneys with antes could segregate and demoralise players.
I remember railing your tournaments Ryan. You were consistency personified. I remember cheering when you made your Vegas seat! In all honesty if you were at the start of your journey into poker with a limited bankroll would antes and mega tourneys be better or worse for you?
I'm pretty sure antes are at the end of a very long line of tweaks and improvements. It's already been said they'd be useful in maybe <5% of Sky Poker tournaments. Posted by Machka
In Response to Re: "ANTES UP" all this talk :You were consistency personified. I remember cheering when you made your Vegas seat! In all honesty if you were at the start of your journey into poker with a limited bankroll would antes and mega tourneys be better or worse for you? Posted by DUNMIDOSH
lets get ready to rumble perhaps sky could test it out in private team games i hope i can adjust to antes only played them on stars and not many at that Posted by stokefc
They have a testing regime, Stokey, & Antes will be subjected to that.
They (Antes) will NOT apply to every Tourney, either. No need to worry on that score.
1) Aggression does not equate to skill or intelligence. To whoever wrote that they'd "want someone that thinks antes are bad for tournament structure" to be sat on their left, I would simply say that there's nothing I like more in a tournament than having some aggressive idiot sat on my right. You can't be more aggressive than me, since I will happily 5-bet light in the right circumstances, you can only be more reckless than me. The skill is not in being aggressive, it's in picking your spot. If you're thinking that antes will make you more profitable simply because you're aggressive, then you're wrong.
2)The idea that people who sit and wait for big hands in tournaments are not skilful players is foolish if those players are getting results. It's simply indisputable that if those players who are playing fewer hands than you are getting better results than you, they are better than you. Poker isn't about how well you play a JT or how well you bluff particular spots, it's all about financial reward. If sitting and waiting for premium hands is profitable but you're not doing it, then you're making a mistake. I would have little doubt that those players who are wisely waiting for hands, as tournaments play at the moment, will soon show you a move or two if the structure of those tournaments changed.
It simply makes me laugh that people can think that players who make a profit at poker can somehow be described as less skilful because they're not playing a super-loose style. Only a small proportion of poker players make money. All those that do are skilful and if they've convinced you that they're not, they're doing an even better job. If all it took to make profit from this game was to sit and wait for big hands, then everyone would do it and if these players are in fact not making a profit, what are you complaining about?
I'm pretty sure antes are at the end of a very long line of tweaks and improvements. It's already been said they'd be useful in maybe <5% of Sky Poker tournaments. Posted by Machka
It's already been stated elsewhere that 84.688744% of facts are made up, similarly 45% of made up facts are withing 35% of being accurate.
In Response to Re: "ANTES UP" all this talk : did you make that statistic up? Posted by hurst05
It's 100%* accurate.
* I made that up.
based on well known Sky Poker representitive's previous estimate. Quote: I think antes are great, & serve a particular purpose in Tourneys where the structure supports them.
However, there are very few Tourneys on Sky Poker where there would be a credible logic for having them - I would estimate that less than 1% (1 in 100) are suitable for Antes.
with all the talk about antes coming into skypoker just wanted to get a feel of who is looking forward to this personaly i am not looking forward to this at all. my reason for this is purely because it forces action and put more of a gamble into the game in the later stages this is bad enough on 10 seat tables never mind 6 seated. i dont think it will speed up the tourney that much but i maybe wrong on that. overall i think it may take away a bit of value of the tournies. when rake is at 15% on some games i dont think it will be worth it. what are your views please point out the benifits i am missing. thanks james Posted by rosjim1
could be big uproar if they dont work out tables properly. in last nights primo there was saveral good even stacks on other big stacks aganist small stacks VERY UNFAIR
In Response to "ANTES UP" all this talk : could be big uproar if they dont work out tables properly. in last nights primo there was saveral good even stacks on other big stacks aganist small stacks VERY UNFAIR Posted by EBBERDON
table draw/seat selection is random. Sky does not choose who goes where!!!
In Response to "ANTES UP" all this talk : could be big uproar if they dont work out tables properly. in last nights primo there was saveral good even stacks on other big stacks aganist small stacks VERY UNFAIR Posted by EBBERDON[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry Ebbers, but that is completely FAIR, not unfair. Its how poker works, everywhere.
You should embrace big stacks - they possess more chips for you to win. Small stacks are much less useful to you.
It's like the weather, sometimes favourable, sometimes not so.
It's the same for everyone, we get drawn on big stack tables & small stack tables. Cake & eat it.
Are you suggesting that the table balancing should NOT be random? That would cause some hoohah!
I have to say two things: 1) Aggression does not equate to skill or intelligence. To whoever wrote that they'd "want someone that thinks antes are bad for tournament structure" to be sat on their left, I would simply say that there's nothing I like more in a tournament than having some aggressive idiot sat on my right. You can't be more aggressive than me, since I will happily 5-bet light in the right circumstances, you can only be more reckless than me. The skill is not in being aggressive, it's in picking your spot. If you're thinking that antes will make you more profitable simply because you're aggressive, then you're wrong. 2)The idea that people who sit and wait for big hands in tournaments are not skilful players is foolish if those players are getting results. It's simply indisputable that if those players who are playing fewer hands than you are getting better results than you, they are better than you. Poker isn't about how well you play a JT or how well you bluff particular spots, it's all about financial reward. If sitting and waiting for premium hands is profitable but you're not doing it, then you're making a mistake. I would have little doubt that those players who are wisely waiting for hands, as tournaments play at the moment, will soon show you a move or two if the structure of those tournaments changed. It simply makes me laugh that people can think that players who make a profit at poker can somehow be described as less skilful because they're not playing a super-loose style. Only a small proportion of poker players make money. All those that do are skilful and if they've convinced you that they're not, they're doing an even better job. If all it took to make profit from this game was to sit and wait for big hands, then everyone would do it and if these players are in fact not making a profit, what are you complaining about? Posted by BorinLoner
Great post BorinLoner
Personally I look forward to antes and expect it to improve my results if anything, but..... I find it a little insulting for people to suggest that in some way players are doing something wrong by adopting a style of play that makes them more profitable?
I'm sure that alot of the same players will have the ability to adapt to the introduction of antes and will change their game accordingly (if necessary) in order to remain profitable.
Comments
Can't wait, so surprised it's taken so long to even be a consideration
Think the main reason was SKY structure for the MTT were in a word FAST - so antes before would have been a terrible idea
Now we have better structered MTT then antes would be great, bring on the world of "M"
No more sitting out, you have to play!
Found this article on casinosmack, might help some people understand what antes bring to a tournament
)
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If you believe having an ante is a detriment to a good tournament structure and increases the luck factor in tournaments, I have some bad news for you. You are wrong and I’d like to play with you on my left at my next tournament.
I’ve read several posts on poker forums lately. Each said basically the same thing. “I don’t like antes in poker tournaments. It increases the amount of chips I have to put into the pot each circuit. I’d rather increase the skill factor by getting to play more hands.” Well, I’m sorry to disappoint those of you who share that opinion, but I believe antes serve the exact opposite purpose. Antes are an asset to the players who know how to change gears and adapt their games to the blind structures they are playing. I would argue that antes enable the more skilled players to be more successful.
First, let’s get the basic fallacies out of the way. Having an ante in a tournament does not necessarily increase the amount of chips you put into a pot each circuit, at least not by a significant amount. By ensuring the Big Blind only increases by 25%-33% instead of 33%-50% as it does in many tournaments, and/or by increasing the length of blind rounds, tournament directors can pretty much dictate the amount of chips each player is forced to bet in each round.
Second, when antes are involved, several skills are very useful in taking down pots – skills that are the trademark of great poker players. Let’s examine a few of the skills needed and discuss why having antes makes these skills more important.
Reading Players: Players who can sense weakness in their opponents are better prepared to take advantage of situations in which a pot warrants “taking a shot”. Reading weakness is a skill set that many players do not possess. Taking advantage of the perceived weakness is something even fewer players have the heart to do. When antes are in the pot, this skill set can pay huge dividends.
Post-Flop Play: With more in the pot pre-flop, players often get better odds to call a raise and should do so with a wider range of starting hands. This forces a player to play better post-flop. Good post-flop play is often the difference between a good player and great player.
Bet-Sizing: Players who are better at sizing their pre-flop bets tend to fair better in games with antes since there is more to win. These players understand that position may dictate different “standard” raises and are willing to size their bet in accordance with the style of players who follow them.
Aggression: Phil Gordon said it best. There are five poker truths qualities that the great poker players all possess. Number one on the list: aggression. Aggressive poker is winning poker. Antes encourage aggression and reward those who are good at knowing when to be aggressive and how to pick their spots.
So, the next time you see a blind structure that includes antes, don’t shy away from it. Embrace it. Those antes may just be your ticket to a big payday.
Good morning.
I’ll just update you once again on the Antes situation, then leave you to it, as the subject seems to arise frequently, with the same points being made. Good points, too, but the eyes & ears upstairs already have it on board, & have done for some time.
Hope you do not consider this abrupt, or rude, but my old Chairman, (I used to have a proper job back in the day!), who was as sharp as a tack, used to say to me, after I repeatedly made the same point, “OK Kendall, I heard you the first 200 times”…..I loved that guy, he was so bright.
So, where are Sky Poker with antes?
It is quite a complex software addition (it just is, leave it at that please), but the development work was approved a while back, & it is already in development.
They even have a scheduled target date for it, but things being what they are with software, & so much important new stuff in the same development train, dates can move, so no dates will be made known. “Soon” is relative, but it will be soon. Nothing can or will change that.
The decision has been made, the development has begun, & we have a date. Thats it.
“Priorities” have also been questioned, quite reasonably.
Same answer, really.
The priorities have to be assessed & acted upon accordingly. Items in the mix, when prioritising this, include…..
1) The amount of Tourney traffic relative to Site Traffic as a whole. In the very broadest sense, Cash poker equates to a great deal more traffic than both MTT’s & SNG’s combined.
2) A lot of the new developments in train are important to cash game poker. Where far & away most traffic is.
3) Tourney traffic is substantially up y-o-y, so the "problem" needs viewing in that context.
4) Stuff such as the totally new “Client”, Synchronised breaks, Resizeable Tables, Auto Top Up, Late Registration, & a whole host of other things are also all in the development timeline. They have dates for ALL of those things, (all soon, too), & a lot more besides.
So, all those things had to be addressed, & prioritised accordingly for the Site as a whole.
Right or wrong, it is what it is, Antes are on the way, & a date is known. I can't add much to that, really.
Sky Poker are the only party in possession of all the facts needed to assess priorities, & that is what they have done, or tried to, to the best of their ability, with all the stats & facts they have at their disposal. I hope that helps you all, & be assured, Sky Poker listen to you as much as any Online Poker site ever could, or do.
Constructive feedback will always be listened to here, & acted upon where appropriate. If they got bit wrong, well it is what it is - but ALL priorities have to be assessed & addressed.
Have a good day.
Yes it will be possible to qualify from satellites but the majority of players will be from straight buy ins
I miss the days where you would see Debdobs Yidette Young Gun Jennyyyy etc playing in the BH and Primo
IMO £110 tourneys with antes could segregate and demoralise players.
I remember railing your tournaments Ryan. You were consistency personified. I remember cheering when you made your Vegas seat!
In all honesty if you were at the start of your journey into poker with a limited bankroll would antes and mega tourneys be better or worse for you?
perhaps sky could test it out in private team games
i hope i can adjust to antes only played them on stars and not many at that
They (Antes) will NOT apply to every Tourney, either. No need to worry on that score.
1) Aggression does not equate to skill or intelligence. To whoever wrote that they'd "want someone that thinks antes are bad for tournament structure" to be sat on their left, I would simply say that there's nothing I like more in a tournament than having some aggressive idiot sat on my right. You can't be more aggressive than me, since I will happily 5-bet light in the right circumstances, you can only be more reckless than me. The skill is not in being aggressive, it's in picking your spot. If you're thinking that antes will make you more profitable simply because you're aggressive, then you're wrong.
2)The idea that people who sit and wait for big hands in tournaments are not skilful players is foolish if those players are getting results. It's simply indisputable that if those players who are playing fewer hands than you are getting better results than you, they are better than you. Poker isn't about how well you play a JT or how well you bluff particular spots, it's all about financial reward. If sitting and waiting for premium hands is profitable but you're not doing it, then you're making a mistake. I would have little doubt that those players who are wisely waiting for hands, as tournaments play at the moment, will soon show you a move or two if the structure of those tournaments changed.
It simply makes me laugh that people can think that players who make a profit at poker can somehow be described as less skilful because they're not playing a super-loose style. Only a small proportion of poker players make money. All those that do are skilful and if they've convinced you that they're not, they're doing an even better job. If all it took to make profit from this game was to sit and wait for big hands, then everyone would do it and if these players are in fact not making a profit, what are you complaining about?
Once you get past the unknown you'll wonder how you ever played without them.
Will likely improve many ppls overall MTT strategy IMO.
* I made that up.
based on well known Sky Poker representitive's previous estimate.
Quote:
I think antes are great, & serve a particular purpose in Tourneys where the structure supports them.
However, there are very few Tourneys on Sky Poker where there would be a credible logic for having them - I would estimate that less than 1% (1 in 100) are suitable for Antes.
in last nights primo there was saveral good even stacks on other big stacks aganist small stacks
VERY UNFAIR
Personally I look forward to antes and expect it to improve my results if anything, but..... I find it a little insulting for people to suggest that in some way players are doing something wrong by adopting a style of play that makes them more profitable?
I'm sure that alot of the same players will have the ability to adapt to the introduction of antes and will change their game accordingly (if necessary) in order to remain profitable.