In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : come on you guy's can't be serious Think you underestimating how bad these players are ) Posted by rancid
ofc I am serious. tournaments are serious buziness
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : look at what could happen. look at how shallow the stacks are, look how good our hand is and how weak our opponents look limping. compare the possible actions when you raise to 475, 700, and all in. 475 /> all imo. Posted by beaneh
I see what you mean now.. ainec = all in nice exit cards.
Fwiw, if your rolled for this level (£2.30 i presume dude? ) its gotta be all in imo.
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : I see what you mean now.. ainec = all in nice exit cards. Fwiw, if your rolled for this level (£2.30 i presume dude? ) its gotta be all in imo. Posted by davelufc
Hi Dave, Was wondering why should the level have a bearing on your decision? Really interested as I always assume people generally play the tourneys they are rolled for? Surely you can't make a play in an MTT thinking "It's only £2:30, nevermind next tourney!" ?
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : look at what could happen. look at how shallow the stacks are, look how good our hand is and how weak our opponents look limping. compare the possible actions when you raise to 475, 700, and all in. 475> all imo. Posted by beaneh
Could you expand on what YOU think the possible actions (or more importantly the reactions) would be in these situations? Also, theres only one short stack!
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : Hi Dave, Was wondering why should the level have a bearing on your decision? Really interested as I always assume people generally play the tourneys they are rolled for? Surely you can't make a play in an MTT thinking "It's only £2:30, nevermind next tourney!" ? Posted by Glenelg
My thinking would be....
"It's a £2.30 tourny, the players that are playing this tournament are likely to be beginners. The hands they're likely to have limped in with are pretty looking hands and they want to see a flop with them. If I shove in here they will have no idea how strong my range of hands is, they probably think I look weak, coz I'd never do with this or AA or KK would I, and they will call me with hands like 22/33/44/55/66/77/88/99/A9/AT/AJ/AQ/KQ/KJ/KTs and probably some other random stuff"
The buy in of the tournament is only relevent when assessing what the other players might be thinking. So a play that would be right here, might not be right in a bigger buy in tournament, not because we are taking 1 more or less seriously than the other, but because we know/assume the players in both tournaments will be thinking different things in this 1 situation and will react differently to the play we make. (which means our best play will often also be different)
Essayyyyyy !
We'll get called soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo light so often here. BH or no BH!
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : look at what could happen. look at how shallow the stacks are, look how good our hand is and how weak our opponents look limping. compare the possible actions when you raise to 475, 700, and all in. 475 /> all imo. Posted by beaneh
mmmm think raise to 475 just equals big pot multi way oop with AK, no one folds for that price in a BH at this kinda level -
raise to 750 probabaly equats to the same situation with maybe less callers
unless your thinking small stack shove, other oppo's call and you re pop it - then smaller raise size would work ok if the shortie does go all in -
shove is good for me though, a lot less thinking involved plus random bads will snap with K10s
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : Hi Dave, Was wondering why should the level have a bearing on your decision? Really interested as I always assume people generally play the tourneys they are rolled for? Surely you can't make a play in an MTT thinking "It's only £2:30, nevermind next tourney!" ? Posted by Glenelg
The level has no relevance to your decision as long as you have 50 buy ins at the level your playing.
I play a few BH`s and you can go for quite a while before you cash, never mind win!!
In op`s hand with 3 limpers i`m all in every time, no brainer.
If you cant afford to go out of the tourney with a premium hand then you shouldn`t play.
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : mmmm think raise to 475 just equals big pot multi way oop with AK, no one folds for that price in a BH at this kinda level - raise to 750 probabaly equats to the same situation with maybe less callers unless your thinking small stack shove, other oppo's call and you re pop it - then smaller raise size would work ok if the shortie does go all in - shove is good for me though, a lot less thinking involved plus random bads will snap with K10s Posted by rancid
now you're getting it.
IF the 850 stack had 4k I would be advocating a larger raise size then 475. as is, if they want to limp call then I dare them let's gogogo to the flop we has pair draw!
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : Could you expand on what YOU think the possible actions (or more importantly the reactions) would be in these situations? Also, theres only one short stack! Posted by Glenelg
We could
FOLD - booooo hissss
CALL - boooo nit
SHOVE - cant be bad we have AK win 675 w/o showdown, race, possibly get called by worse
RAISE 1k with 1/4 our stack in if someone calls we're not often folding, continuing by either doing bets or check shoving.
RAISE 475 -
R could call M could call B could call. about 1.75k in pot we have 3.6k back and AK....
R could call M could go all in B could fold and M could have to fold when we reshove (because we have raised small enough to allow him to re-raise all in) leaving dead money or just end up going allin with a weaker hand than he originally intended to
R could fold M could go allin B could fold and we play vs the shorty with 2bb dead money
R could fold M could fold B could fold and we win 675.
with 3.5k back and 1.7k in pot we can
bet flop 1/2pot get 1 caller and be in a 3.2k pot with 2.4k back and so go all in alot.
when we miss we often still have two overcards potentially with straight draws or FD's so we can go all in easily by whatever means creates the most fold equity. none of these situations are really that bad for us and all of them combined provide a better expected return than shoving. that is not to say that shoving is not a +ev play
it is ofcourse also possible that we raise all just call. and we get in some weird spot where the shorty goes all in but we can easily fold due to the action combined with the board texture, and so save ourselves chips in those instances.
if our opponents are capable of limping in with too wide a range, then it is also concievable that they will continue to the next raise with too wide a range. this is not a bad thing considering how many hands we dominate that they are likely playing. yes it is annoying when someone calls with 93o and wins but that is part of poker you just have to play well deal with it and move on.
looking at it more broadly, preflop you should consider how your strategy should change relative to the playability of your hand strength. with 66 it becomes alot harder to do better than then expectation of just open shoving because of how poorly your hand plays postflop especially multiway.
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : We could FOLD - booooo hissss CALL - boooo nit SHOVE - cant be bad we have AK win 675 w/o showdown, race, possibly get called by worse RAISE 1k with 1/4 our stack in if someone calls we're not often folding, continuing by either doing bets or check shoving. RAISE 475 - R could call M could call B could call. about 1.75k in pot we have 3.6k back and AK.... R could call M could go all in B could fold and M could have to fold when we reshove (because we have raised small enough to allow him to re-raise all in) leaving dead money or just end up going allin with a weaker hand than he originally intended to R could fold M could go allin B could fold and we play vs the shorty with 2bb dead money R could fold M could fold B could fold and we win 675. with 3.5k back and 1.7k in pot we can bet flop 1/2pot get 1 caller and be in a 3.2k pot with 2.4k back and so go all in alot. This only works when we hit our hand. If we see a flop three or four ways, we can never stack off without hitting our hand as our opponents will never call with worse than our Ace-high. when we miss we often still have two overcards potentially with straight draws or FD's so we can go all in easily by whatever means creates the most fold equity. Two overcards, three or four handed is not going to be a hand that has any value. If we miss, we're mostly going to be finished with the hand. With AKo, there aren't that many draws we can hit on a flop. Unless it's a monochrome flop the best we can hope for is a gut-shot, when we know that any action we face is going to come from a pair at least. none of these situations are really that bad for us and all of them combined provide a better expected return than shoving. that is not to say that shoving is not a +ev play it is ofcourse also possible that we raise all just call. and we get in some weird spot where the shorty goes all in but we can easily fold due to the action combined with the board texture, and so save ourselves chips in those instances. if our opponents are capable of limping in with too wide a range, then it is also concievable that they will continue to the next raise with too wide a range. this is not a bad thing considering how many hands we dominate that they are likely playing. yes it is annoying when someone calls with 93o and wins but that is part of poker you just have to play well deal with it and move on. looking at it more broadly, preflop you should consider how your strategy should change relative to the playability of your hand strength. with 66 it becomes alot harder to do better than then expectation of just open shoving because of how poorly your hand plays postflop especially multiway. Posted by beaneh
I have to say, I think making the 475 raise is massively overplaying our hand. The premise is that one of our opponents may have limped intending to raise, which is not going to happen very often at this level. The other possibility that could make this beneficial is that we may get folds from a raise to 475 but people limping for 150 are unlikely to fold for 325 more, especially with the odds we're offering. The short-stack is the only player that might do one of these, but that will most likely be a fold that still leaves us seeing a flop three-handed out of position with an unmade hand. The big blind may even come along with the price being offered. We would essentially be hoping that we can get more in the middle pre-flop before getting our stack in, but still wanting to get it in without having to play the flop. I just think the 475 raise gets called by the limpers so much more often that it is 3-bet or folded to that it's just... well... bad.
If we don't get it in pre-flop with the AK I think we're wasting a premium hand and the chance to add 16% to our stack without a showdown or facing at worst a flip for a double-up. Going three-handed to the flop, out of position is just not something I want to be doing: I think that we're going to force our opponent's to make correct decisions. On any flop that doesn't have an Ace or King on it we'll only get action when we're behind and on a flop with an Ace or King we're not going to get someone with a lower pair to stack off. We might get someone to stack-off with a weaker Ace or King but this still relies on us hitting. I think playing this way with a made hand like AA, KK or QQ is fine but AK doesn't have the same value. C-betting into three or four players who've called our raise pre-flop, on a flop we've missed, from early position just can't be good, can it?
I know you have alot of good results, beaneh, but I can't agree with your ideas here... unless you can convince me.
Comments
Think you underestimating how bad these players are )
Fwiw, if your rolled for this level (£2.30 i presume dude? ) its gotta be all in imo.
Was wondering why should the level have a bearing on your decision? Really interested as I always assume people generally play the tourneys they are rolled for? Surely you can't make a play in an MTT thinking "It's only £2:30, nevermind next tourney!" ?
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:
Could you expand on what YOU think the possible actions (or more importantly the reactions) would be in these situations?Also, theres only one short stack!
mmmm think raise to 475 just equals big pot multi way oop with AK, no one folds for that price in a BH at this kinda level -
raise to 750 probabaly equats to the same situation with maybe less callers
unless your thinking small stack shove, other oppo's call and you re pop it - then smaller raise size would work ok if the shortie does go all in -
shove is good for me though, a lot less thinking involved plus random bads will snap with K10s
I play a few BH`s and you can go for quite a while before you cash, never mind win!!
In op`s hand with 3 limpers i`m all in every time, no brainer.
If you cant afford to go out of the tourney with a premium hand then you shouldn`t play.
Just my opinion m8.
If we don't get it in pre-flop with the AK I think we're wasting a premium hand and the chance to add 16% to our stack without a showdown or facing at worst a flip for a double-up. Going three-handed to the flop, out of position is just not something I want to be doing: I think that we're going to force our opponent's to make correct decisions. On any flop that doesn't have an Ace or King on it we'll only get action when we're behind and on a flop with an Ace or King we're not going to get someone with a lower pair to stack off. We might get someone to stack-off with a weaker Ace or King but this still relies on us hitting. I think playing this way with a made hand like AA, KK or QQ is fine but AK doesn't have the same value. C-betting into three or four players who've called our raise pre-flop, on a flop we've missed, from early position just can't be good, can it?
I know you have alot of good results, beaneh, but I can't agree with your ideas here... unless you can convince me.