if you're worried about the raise size then make it bigger to put the ss in. open shoving 28 bb without antes is waaaay too much. the reason I like the 475 raise is the dead money options, we aren't deep enough for me to be worried about getting outplayed postflop.
if you're worried about the raise size then make it bigger to put the ss in. open shoving 28 bb without antes is waaaay too much. the reason I like the 475 raise is the dead money options, we aren't deep enough for me to be worried about getting outplayed postflop. Posted by beaneh
I'd prefer making it 1k than 475 here, but I still think it's better to shove. The question when you're making it 1k would be: What do I want to happen? If we don't believe that our opponents are limping to raise (which I wouldn't), then they're either going to fold to our 1k - in which case they'd also fold to our shove - or they're going to call. If they call I think we're in a bind, with 1/4 of our stack in the middle, seeing a flop out of position which we'll miss 2/3 times. We can lead at a flop that comes Queen high and hope that our opponent hasn't hit it or has an underpair that they're willing to fold but generally we're not liking any flop we miss. I think the only way I can make it 1k is if I'm determined to follow it up and fire at any flop that doesn't come 9TJ and I don't allow myself any second thoughts. That can definitely be a good play and is probably going to be profitable against a random limp-caller but I don't think it will be any more profitable than a pre-flop shove.
I'm not saying that we should generally be worried about being outplayed at this level but position is going to make this hand incredibly difficult to play post-flop. Getting value from our hand if we hit will be more difficult and leaving 1/4 of our stack behind when we miss is going to be just as hard. Getting out-flopped is going to bite too and I don't especially want to tilt myself by making a creative play and getting burned.
As for shoving 28BB, I'd rather look at it as what we can gain: We're shoving 28BB to pick up 4.5BB, which is 16%. It's not as though we're in an unopened pot, betting 28BB to claim the blinds. We could be called by worse or we could be called in a race. Overall, it's certainly a +ev play - as we both agree - and it's not nearly as murky a spot as making a smaller raise.
On the button I could certainly make a smaller raise but in the blinds I'd hate any action that didn't lead to all my chips going in pre-flop.
just want to say that this is a very interesting thread
my default move is to shove every time, (limpers + AK = shiiiiiiiiiiiiiip) but beane has put a new perspective on this and actually wants us to play flops and things lol even with relatively few bbs.
I, like others, detest playing oop but this, and bet sizing, is something that i clearly need to work on in general.
In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : We could FOLD - booooo hissss CALL - boooo nit SHOVE - cant be bad we have AK win 675 w/o showdown, race, possibly get called by worse RAISE 1k with 1/4 our stack in if someone calls we're not often folding, continuing by either doing bets or check shoving. RAISE 475 - R could call M could call B could call. about 1.75k in pot we have 3.6k back and AK.... R could call M could go all in B could fold and M could have to fold when we reshove (because we have raised small enough to allow him to re-raise all in) leaving dead money or just end up going allin with a weaker hand than he originally intended to R could fold M could go allin B could fold and we play vs the shorty with 2bb dead money R could fold M could fold B could fold and we win 675. with 3.5k back and 1.7k in pot we can bet flop 1/2pot get 1 caller and be in a 3.2k pot with 2.4k back and so go all in alot. when we miss we often still have two overcards potentially with straight draws or FD's so we can go all in easily by whatever means creates the most fold equity. none of these situations are really that bad for us and all of them combined provide a better expected return than shoving. that is not to say that shoving is not a +ev play it is ofcourse also possible that we raise all just call. and we get in some weird spot where the shorty goes all in but we can easily fold due to the action combined with the board texture, and so save ourselves chips in those instances. if our opponents are capable of limping in with too wide a range, then it is also concievable that they will continue to the next raise with too wide a range. this is not a bad thing considering how many hands we dominate that they are likely playing. yes it is annoying when someone calls with 93o and wins but that is part of poker you just have to play well deal with it and move on. looking at it more broadly, preflop you should consider how your strategy should change relative to the playability of your hand strength. with 66 it becomes alot harder to do better than then expectation of just open shoving because of how poorly your hand plays postflop especially multiway. Posted by beaneh
Agree with all this
Even if everyone flats, and we c/f 2/3 of the time we miss its still going to be really profitable
We have AK not 89 here, we shouldnt be trying to make better hands fold. Early in the tournament we attempt to max our value.
Interesting stuff with Beaneh's idea but just as a side note in these games people don't like folding hands such as AQ/AJ/A10 even A9 and possibly KQ/KJ and even with a big shove they can still call pre flop especially if they have you covered and can take a bounty.
However once you get to the flop and they miss entirely they often check/fold so you're losing value vs those hands imo.
If you raise like you say you really need both hands to connect to get it in which is always rare.
You can of course try a CRAI but that's often suicide in these comps.
Think the only plus with raising smallish is so short stack shove and then we can re pop it and hopefully one of the limpers comes along
Raising less to see a flop multi way against these stations may well be profitbale but if we assume by raising small everyone comes along then why don't we flat under rep hand and stack someone on a TPTK board when we have oppo dominated or we can just c/f flop we miss and get away cheaply
Don't feel comfortable at all trying to c/r flops we miss - as if any oppo has hit - they not folding Plus we still looking at a lump of chips for a lead at the pot on 72J flop Granted we kinda loving FD/SD flops plus overcards, but really If we take this line then we may aswel FLAT!
FLAT! come on - we cant' flat can we - would we flat 66 in this spot - ofcourse AK does have improvers to a lot but raising oop only to inflate pot 2/3 for someone else does seem mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Final answer is - raise to 1100 or shove - cant' get to grips with raising small oop with AK going multi way to a flop versus random bad stations
Great thread! Some very interesting points/views. This would fill a "chat box". I wonder what happened? Not that it matters I suppose. Posted by Glenelg
what happened is utterly unrelated to how best play the hand.
if we knew it was going to come Axx or Kxx r 456 monotone that's not going to help us improve.
we have to allow for all the possible outcomes, both good and bad. results are meaningless.
Interesting stuff with Beaneh's idea but just as a side note in these games people don't like folding hands such as AQ/AJ/A10 even A9 and possibly KQ/KJ and even with a big shove they can still call pre flop especially if they have you covered and can take a bounty. However once you get to the flop and they miss entirely they often check/fold so you're losing value vs those hands imo. If you raise like you say you really need both hands to connect to get it in which is always rare. You can of course try a CRAI but that's often suicide in these comps. Posted by Dudeskin8
ya they call with anything
so as I said, there is a whole range of hands that you ARE GOING TO WANT TO JAM because they don't play aswell as AK and don't have the potential to dominate people when they hit a pair.
I think the problem still is (at least for me) I could get it in pre them calling off with worse or raise and possibly fold the best hand postflop if I miss.
And on flop even if I hit they might not K-7-2 r flop them holding AJ e.g. but would get it in pre.
Also surely shoving that range you mention isn't as good as you'll be dominated a lot more when called/racing with medium pairs?
I think the problem still is (at least for me) I could get it in pre them calling off with worse or raise and possibly fold the best hand postflop if I miss. And on flop even if I hit they might not K-7-2 r flop them holding AJ e.g. but would get it in pre. Also surely shoving that range you mention isn't as good as you'll be dominated a lot more when called/racing with medium pairs? Posted by Dudeskin8
if they are willing to limp call AJ/Kt etc then they will flop Kxx or Axx and we get chips. if they miss AJ we just pick up the pot on the flop. if they flop a set they will sometimes put up a large banner saying SETTAMENTS so we can fold and save chips.
the less confident you are the more likely you should be to just jam. really not a fan of jamming 28 bigs without antes very much at all.
Comments
I'm not saying that we should generally be worried about being outplayed at this level but position is going to make this hand incredibly difficult to play post-flop. Getting value from our hand if we hit will be more difficult and leaving 1/4 of our stack behind when we miss is going to be just as hard. Getting out-flopped is going to bite too and I don't especially want to tilt myself by making a creative play and getting burned.
As for shoving 28BB, I'd rather look at it as what we can gain: We're shoving 28BB to pick up 4.5BB, which is 16%. It's not as though we're in an unopened pot, betting 28BB to claim the blinds. We could be called by worse or we could be called in a race. Overall, it's certainly a +ev play - as we both agree - and it's not nearly as murky a spot as making a smaller raise.
On the button I could certainly make a smaller raise but in the blinds I'd hate any action that didn't lead to all my chips going in pre-flop.
just want to say that this is a very interesting thread
my default move is to shove every time, (limpers + AK = shiiiiiiiiiiiiiip) but beane has put a new perspective on this and actually wants us to play flops and things lol even with relatively few bbs.
I, like others, detest playing oop but this, and bet sizing, is something that i clearly need to work on in general.
Even if everyone flats, and we c/f 2/3 of the time we miss its still going to be really profitable
We have AK not 89 here, we shouldnt be trying to make better hands fold. Early in the tournament we attempt to max our value.
Raising less to see a flop multi way against these stations may well be profitbale but if we assume by raising small everyone comes along then why don't we flat under rep hand and stack someone on a TPTK board when we have oppo dominated or we can just c/f flop we miss and get away cheaply
Don't feel comfortable at all trying to c/r flops we miss - as if any oppo has hit - they not folding
Plus we still looking at a lump of chips for a lead at the pot on 72J flop
Granted we kinda loving FD/SD flops plus overcards, but really If we take this line then we may aswel FLAT!
FLAT! come on - we cant' flat can we - would we flat 66 in this spot - ofcourse
AK does have improvers to a lot but raising oop only to inflate pot 2/3 for someone else does seem mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Final answer is - raise to 1100 or shove - cant' get to grips with raising small oop with AK going multi way to a flop versus random bad stations
Great thread! Some very interesting points/views. This would fill a "chat box". I wonder what happened? Not that it matters I suppose.