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why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.

The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
edited April 2012 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
derek1972 Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £1.31
The_Don90 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £3.96
 Your hole cards
  • 8
  • 4
   
JUCY Call  £0.04 £0.10 £3.61
montymole Fold     
BENJANI256 Fold     
derek1972 Call  £0.02 £0.12 £1.29
The_Don90 Check     
Flop
  
  • 3
  • 8
  • J
   
derek1972 Check     
The_Don90 Bet  £0.12 £0.24 £3.84
JUCY Call  £0.12 £0.36 £3.49
derek1972 Call  £0.12 £0.48 £1.17
Turn
  
  • 2
   
derek1972 Check     
The_Don90 Bet  £0.48 £0.96 £3.36
JUCY Raise  £0.96 £1.92 £2.53
derek1972 Call  £0.96 £2.88 £0.21
The_Don90 All-in  £3.36 £6.24 £0.00
JUCY All-in  £2.53 £8.77 £0.00
derek1972 All-in  £0.21 £8.98 £0.00
The_Don90 Unmatched bet  £0.35 £8.63 £0.35
derek1972 Show
  • 3
  • 2
   
The_Don90 Show
  • 8
  • 4
   
JUCY Show
  • 2
  • 2
   
River
  
  • 6
   
JUCY Win Three 2s £7.98  £7.98
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Shieldsy83 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £3.81
The_Don90 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £3.96
oynutter Sit out     
 Your hole cards
  • 6
  • 7
   
millsumm01 Call  £0.04 £0.10 £7.10
HANKBO48 Call  £0.04 £0.14 £3.13
delano1975 Call  £0.04 £0.18 £2.30
Shieldsy83 Call  £0.02 £0.20 £3.79
The_Don90 Check     
Flop
  
  • 7
  • K
  • 6
   
Shieldsy83 Check     
The_Don90 Bet  £0.20 £0.40 £3.76
millsumm01 Fold     
HANKBO48 Call  £0.20 £0.60 £2.93
delano1975 Call  £0.20 £0.80 £2.10
Shieldsy83 Fold     
Turn
  
  • 5
   
The_Don90 Bet  £0.60 £1.40 £3.16
HANKBO48 All-in  £2.93 £4.33 £0.00
delano1975 All-in  £2.10 £6.43 £0.00
The_Don90 Fold     
HANKBO48 Unmatched bet  £0.83 £5.60 £0.83
HANKBO48 Show
  • 4
  • 8
   
delano1975 Show
  • K
  • J
   
River
  
  • K
   
HANKBO48 Win Straight to the 8 £5.18  £6.01
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
The_Don90 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £3.88
linzi24 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £5.01
 Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
   
AcidMan27 Fold     
slackalice Call  £0.04 £0.10 £4.16
montymole Fold     
delano1975 Fold     
The_Don90 Raise  £0.24 £0.34 £3.64
linzi24 Call  £0.22 £0.56 £4.79
slackalice Fold     
Flop
  
  • 5
  • K
  • 4
   
The_Don90 Bet  £0.42 £0.98 £3.22
linzi24 All-in  £4.79 £5.77 £0.00
The_Don90 All-in  £3.22 £8.99 £0.00
linzi24 Unmatched bet  £1.15 £7.84 £1.15
The_Don90 Show
  • Q
  • Q
   
linzi24 Show
  • 5
  • 8
   
Turn
  
  • 5
   
River
  
  • 4
   
linzi24 Win Full House, 5s and 4s £7.25  £8.40
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
The_Don90 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £5.30
millsumm01 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £6.13
 Your hole cards
  • J
  • J
   
oynutter Fold     
HANKBO48 Fold     
delano1975 Raise  £0.12 £0.18 £4.85
spatulaq Fold     
The_Don90 Raise  £0.42 £0.60 £4.88
millsumm01 Fold     
delano1975 Raise  £1.60 £2.20 £3.25
The_Don90 All-in  £4.88 £7.08 £0.00
delano1975 All-in  £3.25 £10.33 £0.00
The_Don90 Unmatched bet  £0.35 £9.98 £0.35
The_Don90 Show
  • J
  • J
   
delano1975 Show
  • K
  • K
   
Flop
  
  • 6
  • 4
  • 2
   
Turn
  
  • 4
   
River
  
  • 7
   
delano1975 Win Two Pairs, Kings and 4s £9.23  £9.23
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
The_Don90 Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £4.00
huhhh Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £0.75
 Your hole cards
  • 9
  • Q
   
Towelie706 Call  £0.04 £0.10 £2.42
slackalice Fold     
montymole Raise  £0.12 £0.22 £3.73
The_Don90 Call  £0.10 £0.32 £3.90
huhhh Fold     
Towelie706 Call  £0.08 £0.40 £2.34
Flop
  
  • 9
  • 10
  • 2
   
The_Don90 Bet  £0.30 £0.70 £3.60
Towelie706 Fold     
montymole Raise  £1.20 £1.90 £2.53
The_Don90 All-in  £3.60 £5.50 £0.00
montymole All-in  £2.53 £8.03 £0.00
The_Don90 Unmatched bet  £0.17 £7.86 £0.17
The_Don90 Show
  • 9
  • Q
   
montymole Show
  • A
  • A
   
Turn
  
  • 8
   
River
  
  • 2
   
montymole Win Two Pairs, Aces and 2s £7.27  £7.27
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
delano1975 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £4.73
The_Don90 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £3.88
 Your hole cards
  • J
  • 10
   
huhhh Call  £0.04 £0.10 £1.81
Towelie706 Fold     
slackalice Call  £0.04 £0.14 £5.95
montymole Fold     
delano1975 Fold     
The_Don90 Check     
Flop
  
  • K
  • 9
  • Q
   
The_Don90 Bet  £0.24 £0.38 £3.64
huhhh Fold     
slackalice Call  £0.24 £0.62 £5.71
Turn
  
  • 7
   
The_Don90 Bet  £0.47 £1.09 £3.17
slackalice Call  £0.47 £1.56 £5.24
River
  
  • K
   
The_Don90 Bet  £1.17 £2.73 £2.00
slackalice Raise  £4.10 £6.83 £1.14
The_Don90 All-in  £2.00 £8.83 £0.00
slackalice Unmatched bet  £0.93 £7.90 £2.07
The_Don90 Show
  • J
  • 10
   
slackalice Show
  • Q
  • K
   
slackalice Win Full House, Kings and Queens £7.30  £9.37
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Comments

  • wayne1958wayne1958 Member Posts: 263
    edited April 2012
    well im no pro but some of your starting hands could be better-nl4 not the best poker iv heard..
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    well im no pro but some of your starting hands could be better-nl4 not the best poker iv heard..
    Posted by wayne1958
    3 of those hands are checks from the BB. Flopping massive. The Q9 hand admittedly not happy about not sure i got to the flop. maybe slight tight by that stage
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  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,462
    edited April 2012
    My $0.02:

    Hand 1 (84s) - Don't mind flop bet to build pot when we hit the flush and very rarely take down the pot as well. On the turn, we know we're behind when opponent min raises, so just call, fold if no heart on river. We don't have any fold equity here. Behind 99% of the time here, too, so I'm calling to hit a heart on the river and check/folding if I miss.

    Hand 2 (67o) - 5 players in the pot, beautiful spot to overbet the pot. Nothing wrong with pot bet, but betting more than pot will still get calls. I think you have to get the money in on the turn tbh, can see we're behind to 84 this time but I think getting the money in will show a profit long term here.

    Hand 3 (QQ) - Pre-flop is fine, flop is okay if you think villain will stack off with worse. Wp, ul.

    Hand 4 (JJ) - Can fold to the 4-bet, depends on the player. If he's a reg, easy fold, if he's a random then it depends on what you've seen the player do previously, readless I probably fold to the 4-bet, simply because the bet sizing looks like the player has some understanding of how to play Texas Hold'em, and in that case, he's not getting his money in with worse than JJ - Best we can hope for is a flip vs. AK

    Hand 5 (Q9s) - Fold pre. As played, we have 14 outs on the flop (2 9's, 3 Q's, 9 spades) so we're probably a favourite in the hand, therefore getting the money in is standard.

    Hand 6 (JTo) - Standard. Loving the overbet on the flop.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2012
    Hand 1 - 84hh - Why are you playing the turn like you've got top set? Ok flop we have lots of equity so the bet is good multi way to build a pot, once you hit the turn, you're semi-bluffing multi way at nl4. 

    Hand 3 - QQ -   b/f b/f b/f,  not bet/hero call. 

    Hand 5 - Q9ss - It's a raised pot here, no need to donk out. Check to raiser, his cbet sizing will prob help you out. Prob fold pre anyway. 

    --------------------------------------

    You seem to overplay those turn spots in hand 1 alot, and justify it by saying "what???? pair and a flush draw and an over???? :O:O:O:O"

    Well it doesn't matter how many outs you've got, if you've got less than 40% and your opponent isn't folding, it's bad. 

    Just like my roller spew ;)
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited April 2012
    84s - C/C turn, getting it in here is crazy lol.

    67o - Don't mind turn against one oppo but when other guy flats aswell I'm thinking more a better 2pair tbh but I guess it isn't awful.

    QQ - Flop bet fine, when he shoves how can you ever call lol, it's not even a shorty shove, it's for your whole stack, this just looks like a tilt call to me and will be VERY costly longterm despite result here. 

    JJ - Don't mind 3bet pre but some people can flat worse however if they raise again they often have a monster and aren't folding, calling pre here isn't a crime either espech in a spot where effective stack is quite big. 

    Q9s - Very easy fold pre. Flop as played should check call for me, as if you raise you are essentially bluffing and people don't like folding any sort of hand so if they have a hand it's going in where you're like 50-50 at best and with NL4 rake it's just not worth it as you can find better spots. 

    J10o - This is just a cooler. 
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2012
    1- check turn

    2 nh

    3- idk, prob ok, doubt its Kx or better often

    4- meh ok, I think considering 3b/f mightnt be bad at 4NL

    5 - fold pre, prob c/c flop no one folds Qx. If you do want to get it in I prefer c/r

    6- if you overbet the flop and get a call bet much bigger on the turn
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited April 2012
    I was chatting to a friend in a live MTT other night who plays reg on sky @ NL4 & 8.

    He is pretty good when we play live, has a good understanding/approach to game and wins @ higher cash lvl live, but he was grumbling @not beating nl4 or 8 on sky.

    Reasons we explored on drive back were: 

    A) Our super strong hands have to hold vs multiway oppos, (preemy PP's).  Plus pot will always be inflated when binkage occurs.

    B) our strong hands have to win flips (Dominating non prs).  (As above on inflation)

    C) Our marginal hands have little value vs multi way.

    Yes we get paid when we smack flops, but rest of time were are kind of playing with our back to the wall.

    IMO is virtually impossible to be profitable vs a table of beyond laggy players based on A B + C. 
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2012
    You have not got the patience to sit through the bad beats during the short term
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    I was chatting to a friend in a live MTT other night who plays reg on sky @ NL4 & 8. He is pretty good when we play live, has a good understanding/approach to game and wins @ higher cash lvl live, but he was grumbling @not beating nl4 or 8 on sky. Reasons we explored on drive back were:  A) Our super strong hands have to hold vs multiway oppos, (preemy PP's).  Plus pot will always be inflated when binkage occurs. B) our strong hands have to win flips (Dominating non prs).  (As above on inflation) C) Our marginal hands have little value vs multi way. Yes we get paid when we smack flops, but rest of time were are kind of playing with our back to the wall. IMO is virtually impossible to be profitable vs a table of beyond laggy players based on A B + C. 
    Posted by AMYBR

    This is nonsense, if we play tight ABC versus this table we will won the majority of the time.
    Yes they will hit draws etc... but laggy and stations = pay day whatever level
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  • harding10harding10 Member Posts: 849
    edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    I was chatting to a friend in a live MTT other night who plays reg on sky @ NL4 & 8. He is pretty good when we play live, has a good understanding/approach to game and wins @ higher cash lvl live, but he was grumbling @not beating nl4 or 8 on sky. Reasons we explored on drive back were:  A) Our super strong hands have to hold vs multiway oppos, (preemy PP's).  Plus pot will always be inflated when binkage occurs. B) our strong hands have to win flips (Dominating non prs).  (As above on inflation) C) Our marginal hands have little value vs multi way. Yes we get paid when we smack flops, but rest of time were are kind of playing with our back to the wall. IMO is virtually impossible to be profitable vs a table of beyond laggy players based on A B + C. 
    Posted by AMYBR
    Can definitely say that it is possible. Table selection and patience are the keys.
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  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited April 2012
    I have won over £500 playing NL4/NL8 and NL10. Its possible and quite easy if your well rolled.
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  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited April 2012
    8,4 hearts hand - check turn, we havent hit, time to slow and see a cheap river if possible. Fold if you dont get odds.

    6,7 off hand - overbet flop, dont think i can fold this at NL4.

    Q,Q hand - Bet slightly smaller on flop if i am picky, he will fold for slightly less if he doesnt have a K normally. Dont call all-in at NL4 imo but that may be wrong.

    J,J hand - he has basically told you what he has. Fold when he 4 bets.

    Q,9 spades hand - fold pre.

    J,10 hand - nh, v unlucky.
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited April 2012
    If you play good poker consistently over a long period of time you'll make money at 4nl easy - just stick at it
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited April 2012
    Just my opinion, I did say @ table of beyond laggy.

    Think if you have patience to crack those levels would likely be better playing higher anyway.  Know plenty of live NL50 games that play as bad, if not worse.

    Question have to ask self is would time be better spent playing higher, even if only marginaly so?  I suspect yes.

    Do we modify our game to play NL4?  Are we basically perma bum hunting, looking to extract value from kamikaze pilots?  Yeah.  Is it high variance due to the craziness, yes.  Do we bring bad habits into our game?  Yes.  Do we play creatively & look to improve our non nut lines....not so much.

    So why not utilise the same skillset where it'll be more meaningful & skillbased.

    DRSharp:  Not bad at all for NL4 bud.  Rake over that?
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  • ilove2h8prilove2h8pr Member Posts: 148
    edited April 2012
    Your such a snob AMYBR lolzzz

    Have you ever developed the patience to beat micro cash?  Nope.  Flame all your tourney wins at online cash?  Yup :p

    Dont b awll mayd :p
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    Your such a snob AMYBR lolzzz Have you ever developed the patience to beat micro cash?  Nope.  Flame all your tourney wins at online cash?  Yup :p Dont b awll mayd :p
    Posted by ilove2h8pr
    Regret the day I told you to join, I do :P

    Elements of truth I guess, but think post has truth also.

    Playing 2nite?
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  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    Just my opinion, I did say @ table of beyond laggy. Think if you have patience to crack those levels would likely be better playing higher anyway.  Know plenty of live NL50 games that play as bad, if not worse. Question have to ask self is would time be better spent playing higher, even if only marginaly so?  I suspect yes. Do we modify our game to play NL4?  Are we basically perma bum hunting, looking to extract value from kamikaze pilots?  Yeah.  Is it high variance due to the craziness, yes.  Do we bring bad habits into our game?  Yes.  Do we play creatively & look to improve our non nut lines....not so much. So why not utilise the same skillset where it'll be more meaningful & skillbased. DRSharp:  Not bad at all for NL4 bud.  Rake over that?
    Posted by AMYBR
    I have heard its easier in live games. I work on winning 20xBI's before moving up a level which is why i am currently at NL8 and NL10 sort of levels. I wont move up until i prove to myself i can beat a level over a decent period of time. Its a long term aim, i learn as i go.

    As for modifying our game for NL4, isnt this just a part of the game? Adapting to your opponents style. Pretty much every table is fast and loose at NL4 so the best plan is to play tight, wait until you have the goods and shovel the chips in. This takes alot of patience which quite alot of people cant handle. Advice to your mate would be to play more tables to prevent any loose calls/boredom. (Can you tell me who it is? I play alot of NL8 at the moment, if you dont want to i understand). As for bum hunting? Absolutely! Why play the regs when you have the 'kamikaze pilots' you spoke of. High variance, yep, thats why you should be properly rolled as it can be very swingy, just trust yourself to get it in good more often than not and over time you will make a profit, sometimes very slowly.

    Does it bring bad habits? Nah, i'm not having it. From an absolute beginners point of view it has been an essential way to learn to play nice solid patient ABC poker without losing money. I'll tell you what, it would'nt harm some of the bigger players to have a pop sometimes just to keep their hand in and not be too out of line sometimes. As for creativity, it comes with time and at NL8 and NL10 on the right tables vs the right people then the moves come in to play more often.

    Interesting post tho mate, some interesting points raised and i am just one player who disagrees through my own experience at low limits but obviously some others wont be as patient and work as hard as i have at my game so your points may be valid concerning others. Could be some intersting posts coming with varying views on this.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited April 2012
    What's the Y stand for in BBY Don...

    Pedantic FTW
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : I have heard its easier in live games. I work on winning 20xBI's before moving up a level which is why i am currently at NL8 and NL10 sort of levels. I wont move up until i prove to myself i can beat a level over a decent period of time. Its a long term aim, i learn as i go. As for modifying our game for NL4, isnt this just a part of the game? Adapting to your opponents style. Pretty much every table is fast and loose at NL4 so the best plan is to play tight, wait until you have the goods and shovel the chips in. This takes alot of patience which quite alot of people cant handle. Advice to your mate would be to play more tables to prevent any loose calls/boredom. (Can you tell me who it is? I play alot of NL8 at the moment, if you dont want to i understand). As for bum hunting? Absolutely! Why play the regs when you have the 'kamikaze pilots' you spoke of. High variance, yep, thats why you should be properly rolled as it can be very swingy, just trust yourself to get it in good more often than not and over time you will make a profit, sometimes very slowly. Does it bring bad habits? Nah, i'm not having it. From an absolute beginners point of view it has been an essential way to learn to play nice solid patient ABC poker without losing money. I'll tell you what, it would'nt harm some of the bigger players to have a pop sometimes just to keep their hand in and not be too out of line sometimes. As for creativity, it comes with time and at NL8 and NL10 on the right tables vs the right people then the moves come in to play more often. Interesting post tho mate, some interesting points raised and i am just one player who disagrees through my own experience at low limits but obviously some others wont be as patient and work as hard as i have at my game so your points may be valid concerning others. Could be some intersting posts coming with varying views on this.
    Posted by DrSharp
    Myehh... Nice post bud.  Kind of humbled me.

    You could easily have been less pleasant about it, thankyou for such a balanced inciteful reply.  You prob know more about the inner workings of my game than anyone here - so might see why that level of grinding/patience may be beyond me.

    Your right about adapting being a key skill - and put it very well.  I suspect your totally right, but have to counter it with - how much effort would it be to adjust out of it?  But I imagine the correct answer is that that is another key skill.

    I didnt mean to imply that micro is worthless, which is probably how it came across.  What I was really trying to say is that if you have a winning game at micros, that same game would almost universally translate to higher levels being mid level.  So I question the value of grinding the micro when we can grind higher with the same game and less variance & rake.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2012
    Donald has just sent me an IM saying....

    "wiiiii amybr agrees with me that nl4 is unbeatable"

    cba to read up coz I'm done with nl4 threads, but plz re-assure me you didn't say this. 

    ty
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