we all think we are good at poker no 1 admits they are bad shanxta thinks im a poor player but tbh i dnt care i seen lots of floors in hes game which i wnt mention my notes on him cant fit enuogh words on the yellow box loool Posted by IDONKCALLU
thanks for the compliment, can't remember playing you so i guess u just stalk my tables and admire
i'll look forward to the next 'i've lost too much money again - i'm leaving thread'
In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : i believe it was aimed at me, Also shanxta i wa styping the very following post was getting typed as you posted so i hadnt seen it. was aimed in general. May i ask when ive ignored people? Posted by The_Don90
my point is, and i probably didn't word it great, is that i looks as though you are still making the same / very similar mistakes as you were idk like a year ago.
i've seen several winning cash players, ones that beat, or are still beating nl4, up to higher stakes regs offer advice that you don't seem to be following.
you are ofc though entitled to play how you wish, so that's up to you, it just doesn't seem to have moved on, with the amount of time you spend in the game, I would have expected you to have worked out nl4 by now
dammit my connection went and I lost my post in summary - nl4 is beatable, I'm doing it using ABC, patience on multiple tables intially. once you've got the lay of the land your range can widen a bit but don't go mad. I'm a competent player only (DR Sharp can attest to that! By the way Doc I'll get my money back. Maybe ) ) but if I can do it......
It took a while for me given the initial volumes I was playing and the time it took for the advice from players here to get through my thick skull at times. The advice is good - understand it and use it. Admittedly you sometimes forget but overtime it'll become second nature.
I'm over rolled for nl4 now (based on people's multiples) but I can't put the volume in for nl8/nl10 to "get" how it plays different if at all. So I'll stay at nl4 until I can. There is no rush.
You can do this Don. You know you can
I don't think you need to play like a brain dead ape tho! . Now where's my banana?
Donald, NL4 is beatable and you know it is beatable. The problem is that YOU cant beat it. I get the impression that you become obsessed with it and when you have a few BB you tilt. A player with your experience at this poker malarky should be able to absolutely smash NL4. I disagree to a certain extent with a lot of the NL4 regs who advocate uber nitty ABC poker. Yes this is good advice for a new player but someone who has played as many hands as your goodself does not need to play nitty. Providing you can read the board texture you SHOULD be making money at this level. The main reason being the nature of the vast majority will be playing ultr passive. Most dont know where the fold button is as you rightly point out but they dont know where the raise button is either. This fact alone allows a decent player to see flops cheaply and then, having read the texture of the board, proceed with either caution or aggression. You have tried this so many times Don, but as Shanxta rightly says , along with Scotty77, LOLRaise et al, you just do not seem to listen to ANY advice given.
In fact i dont know why i have just typed all this, must be the alcohol.
When I have some free time I'm gonna just grind nl4 for 20k hands to show what nonsense people are saying when they come out with 'the players are too bad to beat'
It is the most beatable level on the site.
But it's far easier to blame other people than look at ourselves....
lots to reply to, just flicked on between watching some films in bed and suffering my constant life tilt of it. I will reply in full tomorrow when in a better mindset. I also have a plan. Watch this space.
FWW all my comments were surrounding why would be beat it rather than can we - meaning if we have a winning game at NL4, perhaps we can be be slightly more adventerous/confident.
When our big hands get outdrawn and we are stuck, our dominating hands become flips, and our flips (vs perceived worse & flips) dont get there. How can I win over volume?????????????? Posted by ilove2h8pr
Firstly, i looked over the hands you posted. Small stakes is all about getting value from your hands, how can we get max value if we are short stacking? If your short stacking because thats how you want to play then fair enough but that changes your style somewhat. My advice is based on 100xbb +.
If you look at evilpingus post and the bits i highlighted on that post it should explain being outdrawn and flipping. If we get our money in as a 60% favourite more often than not then long term we make a profit. If you play lots of volume and still lose at micro stakes then its time to look at our game rather than what others are doing.
NL8 does play different to NL4. Lot of people dont agree but its what i find. At NL8 we can start to play what some describe as 'proper poker' (whatever that means) on the right table but some tables play just like NL4. We dont have to raise 4x (unless UTG when its ok) because 3xbb will do on the whole.
A,K hand - raise 3xbb on the button, it makes our c-bet cheaper when we miss 2 out of 3 flops (c-bets work more often at NL8). Its a soaking wet flop with a straight, flushy drawy and 2 pair type board, do i call? with his stack, yes. So you ran in to a monster, i would just open notes on villain and note he calls out of position with a wide range to a 4x raise. I wanna play this guy as often as possible in future.
10,10 hand - Just make it 3xbb +1bb per limper so the raise should be around 32p. Your stack size makes it difficult for me cos i arent good at short stacking. This makes our c-bets cheaper again, instead of our remianding stack. As it is he has great odds to call with his gutshot flush draw due to your raise pre inflating the pot. Plays itself really due to stack sizes.
A,J hand - fold when he shoves, your marginally behind to pocket pairs like this and i dont really embrace flipping when its so much easier to wait for a better spot. I think your behind to too many hands to call this off. What hands in his shoving range are you favourite against? A,10-, K,x- and i am not sure he is doing that as light as that. Fair enough, you have reads but we seem to be flipping at best alot of the time.
FWW all my comments were surrounding why would be beat it rather than can we - meaning if we have a winning game at NL4, perhaps we can be be slightly more adventerous/confident. Its all there, no need to go over it again. Posted by AMYBR
Why would we beat it? In my case, to learn, but more importantly to build a bankroll from nothing. Also, in my view, i feel i need to beat a level before i think i am Phil Ivey and jump up stakes too fast. Basically if i can beat the current level it means i have a shot at beating the level above, if not i have something to fall back on.
In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Yeah, understand your stance on this. I think your view mirrors that of Dons and thats why he sometimes struggles with it. It really is a patience thing and multi tabling is a must. A mate at work plays one table at NL4, i dont know how he does it. I need at least 4 going just to keep the hands coming. As usual, its good talking these things through. At Don, are you giving NL4 a go again then or you finished for good? Posted by DrSharp
I will be giving it another go, Ive got a new monitor arriving hopefully sometime within the week. After that im just going to enjoy myself with what roll i have atm. However in the background ill be savng up around 50buy ins. i know this is far too much but will give me time to go and prove i can beat NL4 and a 50 buy in resistance when i move up. This will continue.
I thnk having the extra movement could help me long term.
In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : 15k hands, 12bb/100 win rate here - fairly small sample size but shows that yes, 4NL is beatable. I seem to remember a while ago, you were posting 4NL hands in A51 and BBV all the time too? Withdraw a couple of 4NL buy-ins, download the free PC Kindle app, and buy "The Mental Game of Poker". Or buy the book itself for a couple of quid more and keep it in the toilet or something ) Seems like some "Hellmuth Tilt" going on here to me - when you get your money in ahead, you feel as if you're entitled to the pot, and you tilt when you don't win, or you see someone win a pot with 84o and think "That idiot shouldn't be in the pot and he's taken my money". Simple fact of the matter is that if you keep getting your money in as a favourite, you'll make money. It's the same at 4NL and 1000NL. Imagine you and a villain both put £4 in the middle pre-flop, KK vs A6 for example, and you have 70% chance of winning the hand. Which also means your opponent wins the pot 30% of the time. Do that 100 times and you'll win the £8 pot 70 times. You've bet a total of £400 and won £560, so £1.60 for every time this happens. Therefore, instead of thinking "I've just lost £4 to this idiot calling all in with A6 and getting lucky", imagine you've actually won £1.60 every single time you get into that spot, and forget about the result altogether. Embrace the bad beats, too. Bad players getting lucky is what keeps bad players playing. If you were playing a game with much less variance, where the bad player hardly ever wins, they'd lose their money and give up as they never win anything. The variance is what makes Poker attractive to fish as it allows them to win in the short term. You also seem to have a massive lack of confidence with 4NL. I remember before you were asking to be staked for UKIPT Nottingham on the Facebook DTD page IIRC, you seemed a lot more confident than you do about 4NL - Look where that confidence got you. Weren't you chip leader at one stage? You can be chip leader in a £770 tournament but can't beat 4NL? You're good enough at Poker to beat 4NL, and much higher levels too, but the Mental side of your game needs some serious work IMO. Posted by EvilPingu
Ive said it loads mate that im a confidence player. I dont think ive ever publically admitted to it. I think returning to poker straight after UKIPT Notts probably wasnt a good idea. Id obviously crushed what confidence i had going in. Being fair day 2 apart from one hand was all pretty standard. Just gotta win those flips and 70/30s. The non-standard hand i shouldnt have made a move on that opponent. Morale, dont bluff readless.
In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : my point is, and i probably didn't word it great, is that i looks as though you are still making the same / very similar mistakes as you were idk like a year ago. i've seen several winning cash players, ones that beat, or are still beating nl4, up to higher stakes regs offer advice that you don't seem to be following. you are ofc though entitled to play how you wish, so that's up to you, it just doesn't seem to have moved on, with the amount of time you spend in the game, I would have expected you to have worked out nl4 by now Posted by SHANXTA
Admitting ive made mistakes. I dont think ive ever denied that. I'm making these mistake less frequent now and ive found away which is actually reducing my tilt amount.
As stated before multitabling is a must for NL4, atm thats soemthing im struggling with, and when i dont i just get bored and try and make a move. This obviously means hands like the Q9 hand which self admittedly is terrible pre happens.
Another issue is probably disapline. I dont grind anywhere near enough. And when i do tournaments just seem to lure me every single time. .
Lots to work on i suspect. Unfortunetly its all stuff people cant teach sort of chaining me to a chair and only allowing my hand to work the mouse. So it going to take a while unfortunetly. Thanks fortaking time to talk about it though.
Discipline is something i struggled with for ages. I found that i would catch a bad beat, and start playing bad hands just to spite the fish who'd just taken my roll. Also playing out of bankroll limits is a thing that cost me dearly.
At this level i pull up 2/3 tables (if i'm on my laptop) or 6 if i'm on my iMac and i always have SkyPoker or the telly on in the background. I watch that, and if i don't get a hand it's no problem, i just keep folding them. I don't think you need to even watch the table play at this level as people will just usually bet when they've hit something.
It's all stuff you have the immediate power to change though. Before you play that bad hand just ask whether it will be profitable. Just literally take 2/3 seconds to think about it and you'll always throw it away.
In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Admitting ive made mistakes. I dont think ive ever denied that. I'm making these mistake less frequent now and ive found away which is actually reducing my tilt amount. As stated before multitabling is a must for NL4, atm thats soemthing im struggling with, and when i dont i just get bored and try and make a move. This obviously means hands like the Q9 hand which self admittedly is terrible pre happens. Another issue is probably disapline. I dont grind anywhere near enough. And when i do tournaments just seem to lure me every single time. . Lots to work on i suspect. Unfortunetly its all stuff people cant teach sort of chaining me to a chair and only allowing my hand to work the mouse. So it going to take a while unfortunetly. Thanks fortaking time to talk about it though. Posted by The_Don90
Can i ask why you struggle with multitabling? I'ld suggest this may help with your issues on 2 fronts:
1If you can play 6-8 tables the big hands come round often enough to give you no chance to get bored.
2Playing this amount of tables will obv increase volume and help you iron out variance
This approach works for me, I like to play 6-8 tables for relatively short sessions of 1-2 hours. I find this requires my full concentration and no chance to get bored.
If this still doesn't work for you, maybe you should consider playing a form where your lack of patience and need to make moves is not such a hindrance - such as Heads Up formats.
btw I guess there's a lot of goodwill towards you for this many people to take the trouble to post, they must feel you have potential to achieve more.
In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Can i ask why you struggle with multitabling? I'ld suggest this may help with your issues on 2 fronts: 1 If you can play 6-8 tables the big hands come round often enough to give you no chance to get bored. 2 Playing this amount of tables will obv increase volume and help you iron out variance This approach works for me, I like to play 6-8 tables for relatively short sessions of 1-2 hours. I find this requires my full concentration and no chance to get bored. If this still doesn't work for you, maybe you should consider playing a form where your lack of patience and need to make moves is not such a hindrance - such as Heads Up formats. btw I guess there's a lot of goodwill towards you for this many people to take the trouble to post, they must feel you have potential to achieve more. Posted by simonnatur
i actually have no problem multitabling on other sites. The flash system of sky and my computer just seem to hate eachother and lag starts, the amount of time im UTG and folded or being in SB and despite auto post being on the blind just doesnt post. So the issue is actually LAG.
In decemeber i was tabling between 6 and 9 tables for 6 hours a day. But i found that the first 3-4 hours where very profitable then the last two, im not sure why, im guessing fatige id just lose everything. As a result after a week of this i sort of gave up. If id have continued i suspect the C4P alone would have made up for that and gave me a strong monthly profit.
However i think i will go back to this, just with the rules of having at least 2 days off per week allowing me to refresh. I will be unlikley to move up stragiht away as i will be upgrading my PC at the earlist possible opportunity. As a resiult my plan is to start with £200 and i think ill withdraw £500 once i hit £1000. My pc is hand built so much better standard than what id have got in the shops for the price when i got it. As a result i rekon £500 would give me a pretty decent spec pc. I built this one 5 years ago for under £350 and it still plays all of todays games only needing to lower settings on some games.
What I don't get, is if you're so confident at beating better players and higher levels of cash than 4NL then why don't you do it. Personally I think if you can't beat 4NL, then going to 20NL (for example) is just gonna be like you burning money. But if you are genuinely convinced you have a negative winrate at 4NL and yet have a positive win rate at higher stakes (very unlikely), why are you playing 4NL. I wouldn't play Omaha DYMs over Hold Em ones, if I knew my winrate was tons better at Hold Em.
You need to beat 4NL. Step7 (I think) had it pretty much perfect, yes you'll be super tight, and folding winning hands and exploitable, but 99% of players at 4NL won't know how to exploit it, and you will win long term.
Comments
How can I win over volume??????????????
in summary - nl4 is beatable, I'm doing it using ABC, patience on multiple tables intially. once you've got the lay of the land your range can widen a bit but don't go mad.
I'm a competent player only (DR Sharp can attest to that! By the way Doc I'll get my money back. Maybe
It took a while for me given the initial volumes I was playing and the time it took for the advice from players here to get through my thick skull at times. The advice is good - understand it and use it. Admittedly you sometimes forget but overtime it'll become second nature.
I'm over rolled for nl4 now (based on people's multiples) but I can't put the volume in for nl8/nl10 to "get" how it plays different if at all. So I'll stay at nl4 until I can. There is no rush.
You can do this Don. You know you can
I don't think you need to play like a brain dead ape tho!
Donald, NL4 is beatable and you know it is beatable. The problem is that YOU cant beat it. I get the impression that you become obsessed with it and when you have a few BB you tilt.
A player with your experience at this poker malarky should be able to absolutely smash NL4. I disagree to a certain extent with a lot of the NL4 regs who advocate uber nitty ABC poker. Yes this is good advice for a new player but someone who has played as many hands as your goodself does not need to play nitty.
Providing you can read the board texture you SHOULD be making money at this level. The main reason being the nature of the vast majority will be playing ultr passive. Most dont know where the fold button is as you rightly point out but they dont know where the raise button is either. This fact alone allows a decent player to see flops cheaply and then, having read the texture of the board, proceed with either caution or aggression.
You have tried this so many times Don, but as Shanxta rightly says , along with Scotty77, LOLRaise et al, you just do not seem to listen to ANY advice given.
In fact i dont know why i have just typed all this, must be the alcohol.
Anyways GL mate.
p.s. dont sigh for once i think this plan works.
Its all there, no need to go over it again.
If you look at evilpingus post and the bits i highlighted on that post it should explain being outdrawn and flipping. If we get our money in as a 60% favourite more often than not then long term we make a profit. If you play lots of volume and still lose at micro stakes then its time to look at our game rather than what others are doing.
@ Ilove2h8pr,
NL8 does play different to NL4. Lot of people dont agree but its what i find. At NL8 we can start to play what some describe as 'proper poker' (whatever that means) on the right table but some tables play just like NL4. We dont have to raise 4x (unless UTG when its ok) because 3xbb will do on the whole.
A,K hand - raise 3xbb on the button, it makes our c-bet cheaper when we miss 2 out of 3 flops (c-bets work more often at NL8). Its a soaking wet flop with a straight, flushy drawy and 2 pair type board, do i call? with his stack, yes. So you ran in to a monster, i would just open notes on villain and note he calls out of position with a wide range to a 4x raise. I wanna play this guy as often as possible in future.
10,10 hand - Just make it 3xbb +1bb per limper so the raise should be around 32p. Your stack size makes it difficult for me cos i arent good at short stacking. This makes our c-bets cheaper again, instead of our remianding stack. As it is he has great odds to call with his gutshot flush draw due to your raise pre inflating the pot. Plays itself really due to stack sizes.
A,J hand - fold when he shoves, your marginally behind to pocket pairs like this and i dont really embrace flipping when its so much easier to wait for a better spot. I think your behind to too many hands to call this off. What hands in his shoving range are you favourite against? A,10-, K,x- and i am not sure he is doing that as light as that. Fair enough, you have reads but we seem to be flipping at best alot of the time.
I thnk having the extra movement could help me long term.
Although i will say this, great post mate.
As stated before multitabling is a must for NL4, atm thats soemthing im struggling with, and when i dont i just get bored and try and make a move. This obviously means hands like the Q9 hand which self admittedly is terrible pre happens.
Another issue is probably disapline. I dont grind anywhere near enough. And when i do tournaments just seem to lure me every single time.
Lots to work on i suspect. Unfortunetly its all stuff people cant teach sort of chaining me to a chair and only allowing my hand to work the mouse. So it going to take a while unfortunetly. Thanks fortaking time to talk about it though.
At this level i pull up 2/3 tables (if i'm on my laptop) or 6 if i'm on my iMac and i always have SkyPoker or the telly on in the background. I watch that, and if i don't get a hand it's no problem, i just keep folding them. I don't think you need to even watch the table play at this level as people will just usually bet when they've hit something.
It's all stuff you have the immediate power to change though. Before you play that bad hand just ask whether it will be profitable. Just literally take 2/3 seconds to think about it and you'll always throw it away.
In decemeber i was tabling between 6 and 9 tables for 6 hours a day. But i found that the first 3-4 hours where very profitable then the last two, im not sure why, im guessing fatige id just lose everything. As a result after a week of this i sort of gave up. If id have continued i suspect the C4P alone would have made up for that and gave me a strong monthly profit.
However i think i will go back to this, just with the rules of having at least 2 days off per week allowing me to refresh. I will be unlikley to move up stragiht away as i will be upgrading my PC at the earlist possible opportunity. As a resiult my plan is to start with £200 and i think ill withdraw £500 once i hit £1000. My pc is hand built so much better standard than what id have got in the shops for the price when i got it. As a result i rekon £500 would give me a pretty decent spec pc. I built this one 5 years ago for under £350 and it still plays all of todays games only needing to lower settings on some games.
You need to beat 4NL. Step7 (I think) had it pretty much perfect, yes you'll be super tight, and folding winning hands and exploitable, but 99% of players at 4NL won't know how to exploit it, and you will win long term.