Well you +1 asked me to explain and then lol, nice, thats not rude? I delib worded my reply to entice a +ev discussion, really trying hard here not to flame but ur post kinda makes that difficult for me. I'll be nice tho.. my reasoning is more calculated then you think.
Whats a standard UTG opening range? What worse hands can we keep in this range by flatting instead of 3betting, that don't call a 3bet? Your not answering this... also using 1010 instead of TT is flawed logic.
Its not difficult to apply an UTG range, its like 11-15% of hands for an ok-reg and less then ~20% for bad ones. (if its a fish we don't need to worry about him folding worse hands to a 3bet as he'll still call with bags). Try again and we'll discuss it further.
You can interpret my posts in whatever way you wish, but I can assure you they weren't intended to be rude, and whichever way you look at it I'm posting a reply regarding the analysis of a hand: not for any other reason.
Whats a standard UTG opening range? What worse hands can we keep in this range by flatting instead of 3betting, that don't call a 3bet?
Ok, a standard utg opening raise from a tag player is probs 22+ A9s+ A10o+ J10s+ (maybe 89s, 109s) KQo+ .. maybe like KJo. Applying this range and assuming there is ZERO dynamics and ppl are readless, I'd say a good tag player is folding nearly everything, perhaps calling TT, JJ AQs, either calling or 4betting AKo/AKs, either calling to trap w/ QQ+ or 4betting. Therefore, assuming villain is ok it's a pretty easy flat pre. Vs a fish ofc i'm 3betting all day
No I agree you could prob be more rude if you wanted to but didn't mean to. Its cool brah.
My actual first post wasn't to question Bearly it was more to give the person asking about 3bets some clarity on when to flat to keep in worse, i'm sure Bearly had his reasons to do it with JJ but when ppl use this term their hand typically has more equity than JJ versus a prerange. And usually villain has a wider range than ~13%.
I think your applying too tight of a calling range imo, alot of 50nl regs are calling lighter then you think from EP and just x/folding flops.
any good player isn't calling a readless btn 3b w/ much worse oop when opener is utg. with dynamics and late position you can expect good players to still be calling with quite a tight range, but 4betting with a wider range, either as a bluff or for value. Ofc with the more dynamics and info the players have then theres much more play, like getting pocket pairs aipf 100bb deep and all sorts of other stuff. the range ive given is for a good tag player. a bad aggro or a fish then yeah its muchwider
Most regs are calling wider, see for yourself. They're calling with similar hands but wider and with most of their UTG range apart from ugly broadways.
I'm calm but kiddo is doing it wrong - no one is slagging anyone off we're just sticking to our guns. But even so,
being a nit does not make someone a good player.
There's no way that I am going to argue that the players defending wider at 50nl are good solid players but for him to autobet state that anyone defending a 3bet wider then TT-JJ,AQs is not very good is utter toilet!!!!! (I'm sure he'd argue the color of the toilet water with me if he had the chance!!! I'm not being rude...) The range mentioned for a UTG 3bet caller is too faint, i mean if you open that range you have ~178 combos.
Defending *: 46 combos, 25.8%
Folding: 132 combos, 74.2%
* Group 1: JJ-TT, AQs 12 combos, 26.1% (6.7% total)
* Group 2: QQ+, AKs, AKo 34 combos, 73.9% (19.1% total)
From UTG our defending range should be more like ~40% of hands, as our UTG range should be closest to our 3bet calling range!!!!! As if we're positionally aware its out strongest range, and needs to be as we're OOP majority of the time.
Anyway, My original point w/o actually stating it was that underepping hands like JJ+,AQs,AK can be good in spots where players are playing all pairs and ALOT of Ax hands. Doing it against a tight range of 13% won't yield similar results. Next time I think I just won't bother.
lol. Your post seems wayyyy more childish and rude than mine imo (not like I care), but perhaps that's me being biased.
I'll try reply to your post bit by bit but my laptop is dying, so it may be cut short......
Readless, folding to a 3b with most of your utg range does not mean you're a nit. It means you're a positionally aware and recognise playing oop vs an unknown 3bet is more +ev than anything else imo. oh ****, it's dying. BRB lolol
the whole 50nl defending thing is a bit off topic anyway. I'm talking about this hand, and in this hand assuming both players are readless, it wouldn't be optimal to call a 3bet oop with the effective stack being 100bb with less than TT. What are you doing with 22-99? Set mining? That isn't profitable. What're you doing with A9-AJs? Trying to hit a flush? Trying to flop tp? Neither of those are profitable. What are you doing with KQs? I could go on.
Our utg range probs is closest to our 3b calling range yes, but readless and at low limits you'd imagine an unknown 3betting an utg raiser has an even tighter range. Correct? Yes some players will be looser and just 3b any random ****, but as a general rule I think what I say makes sense.
Slow playing big hands is fine in certain spots yes, but my point still remains, and is the most important point in this whole debate imo: if there's a good tight player opening utg it's wayyyyyy harder for you to get value with JJ by 3betting than it is by calling. He's definitely folding out most things you have crushed, and that's for sure imo. Your post is backwards imo. Surely if a player is opening Arag and other random cra p then we should be MORE inclined to 3bet those players as theyre probs more likely to call 3bets with worse, rather than 3bet a good tight player who is opening a narrow range utg but recognises that other players will view his play as tight, and therefore will assume that if an unknown 3bets him he can pretty easily assume he's strong, and in-turn fold A9-AJ, maybe AQ, KQ, 22-99, sometimes TT, JJ.
And in reply to your comment about 'we're both sticking to our guns' and all that, it's not that at all. If I realise I'm in the wrong and the other player is giving better analysis than me then i'll hold my hands up and actually try to listen to that player, but I just don't think your analyis in this hand FOR this hand is that accurate.
And sorry if it seems I'm slagging anyone off, again, not intentional lol. I just like a good debate. Ofc some players react badly to that.
And also when we 3bet, if a good tight reg calls from utg. Some of the time I think he's calling with QQ cos he isn't sure where he is. And everything added up means it'll be v.tough to play vs an unknown in a 3bpot in THIS spot, even in position.
Ok, so in continuation from my earlier post: the whole 50nl defending thing is a bit off topic anyway. I'm talking about this hand, and in this hand assuming both players are readless, it wouldn't be optimal to call a 3bet oop with the effective stack being 100bb with less than TT. What are you doing with 22-99? Set mining? That isn't profitable. What're you doing with A9-AJs? Trying to hit a flush? Trying to flop tp? Neither of those are profitable. What are you doing with KQs? I could go on.
You did go on,
The point is, your perspective is completely inward... its seems to me like you think that everyone thinks about these spots exactly the same way you do, when I clearly know from experience thats not the case. Watch some 50nl and look out for some spots like this or record some mastercash or something.. i dunno.. players will be calling 3bets with 22-99, JTs, A5s... your just giving them too much credit and presuming that all regs are solid and playing the way the poker videos are tellin you play.
When you say things like readless or dynamic; its an excuse to fill in the grey ambigious areas with something black & white. Having those blurry greys spots is the makeup of the game.. its okay to not know something every now and then and go with your gut.
BTW, I react just fine thanks and I havent taken offence to anything. I'm happy just grinding my session out and enjoying your effort.
Readless or dynamic to fill grey areas? such lol. Read through my posts again and I think you'll find not. In fact it's kinda absurd then you'd even suggest that. Like I mentioned earier, I don't mind not knowing it all, but the fact is you're not really giving a convincing argument.
Anyway, back to the hand, you know, that thing that we're debating on.
So, because some players call 3bets with 27o, it means all players do? That's pretty much what you just said.
AND I didn't say 3betting is bad, I said your reasoning was bad. And what you've just said in that one post makes more sense than all of your other posts put together. It seems to me you've just completely ditched your earlier argument.
edit: just reread your comment and mustve been slightly tired when replying (well, I still am lol) . regarding your black and white comment, yes i do think it's important to go with your gut sometimes, but I still think it's good having some reasoning and a plan
you make some good points about when to flat premiums vs EP or late opens etc. but the reason i wouldnt 3bet JJ here isn't mainly to do with that, it's just because against ~90% of the regs ive played against on sky it's going to be -ev to 3b/5b JJ, and i really dont like 3b/folding nice hands
Flatting JJ here as a default readless play is bad, all those horrid postflop spots your all self inflicting on your winrate!! It's soo flawed... unreal. Your choosing to make things harder... nice.
By 3betting we define ranges. By flatting we play overpairs, overcards TPTKs, underpairs that flop sets, and... oh i give up... I tried. I won't bother again.
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