Against a fish i am 3 betting jacks all day long here and a very wide range of hands for value and also inferior hands as i can get them to fold tons to hands on the flop and later streets. For a reg to be peeling a 3bet out of position with hands like kj ,kq qj q10 8s and down is pretty bad in my opinion its either a 4 bet or a fold. When i smooth called with jacks in this hand if i 3 bet he is folding all of these hands possibly even aq and if he 4 bets i know hes never 4 bet bluffing so there is no value in 3 betting. There is 1 50nl grinder who is quite aggro like myself and sometimes we get into 3 and 4betting each other very light and jacks would definately be a great time to 3 bet against this player as i know he is capable of a light 4bet as he knows im quite aggro. Back to discussing the hands he wont call oop with to a 3 bet i dont like calling oop with these hands and definately 4 bet them tons once in a while its good to mix up my play tho and call a 3 bet oop against the aggro player if i am prepared to make a play or a check raise on the turn given board texture but against a nit the hands mentioned above are an easy fold oop.
Flatting JJ here as a default readless play is bad, all those horrid postflop spots your all self inflicting on your winrate!! It's soo flawed... unreal. Your choosing to make things harder... nice. By 3betting we define ranges. By flatting we play overpairs, overcards TPTKs, underpairs that flop sets, and... oh i give up... I tried. I won't bother again. Posted by TPTP123
You post some good stuff and I think there is a decent argument for 3betting pre, but the above post doesn't make a lot of sense to me
How does 3betting avoid horrible postflop spots? We just have a more bloated pot when they occur
Raising to define ranges= I want to play my hand v a stronger range. Not a good reason to raise imo. Also we are given no reads anyway
By raising how do we avoid playing the type of hands you mention? They can still outflop us, and they won't fold the hands we really want them to fold
Whether we 3b or not depends a lot on dynamic, and how wide they flat or 4bet. Also are you 3b/f.? I'm not to sure I wanna 3b/5b v unknown here and we need to think he flats wide to make 3b/f the optimal play
Flatting JJ here as a default readless play is bad, all those horrid postflop spots your all self inflicting on your winrate!! It's soo flawed... unreal. Your choosing to make things harder... nice. By 3betting we define ranges. By flatting we play overpairs, overcards TPTKs, underpairs that flop sets, and... oh i give up... I tried. I won't bother again. Posted by TPTP123
you don't seem to understand. 'readless' means we dont know what villains UTG opening range is, it means we dont know what his call3b range is, or his 4b range. calling preflop might be a small mistake vs this villain once we have played with him some more and understand how he plays, but 3b/stacking off is going to be a MASSIVE mistake if this villain is someone who will just 4b/c QQ+ and fold all hands we beat except maybe TT/AQ.
you seem to say that you want to 3b pre so you can make an easier decisions later on, that is not how you should be thinking about poker
Okay, so lets do this until i'm blue in the fingers.
We flat an UTG Range with JJ to keep in worse. We're always a 2:1 dog against {QQ+,AK} and when we both flop overpairs it gets messy, ergo we're leveling ourselves.
Additionally, no one is taking into account the instances where UTG pfr, we flat and blinds come along. 4way pot with prem pair!
Lastly the below trails show how we end up doing against hands where we have more than 50% equity preflop, but then things reverse post flop. ie more horrible spots than when we 3bet.
* 1/5th of the time this happens when we flat, + his undefined nut range that has 66% equity.
* In comparison to like a 1/10th of the time when we 3bet iso, and he auto 4bet defines his nut range which is common amongst good and bad regs.
Example 1; 13% (Standard UTG range)
villain="13%" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5
Results:
Trials
OUTFLOPPED
282641
62717 (22.19%)
Example 2; TT-88 (nit range)
villain="TT-88" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5
Results:
Trials
OUTFLOPPED
316158
35606 (11.26%)
Example 3; TT-22, (pairs yey range)
villain="TT-22" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5
Results:
Trials
OUTFLOPPED
257022
28995 (11.28%)
Example 4; TT-77,T9s-76s (med pairs + SCs)
villain="TT-77,Tx9x-7x6x" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5
Results:
Trials
OUTFLOPPED
284158
26498 (9.33%)
Its only when they start calling with Suited Ax in their utg 3bet defending range that we start getting similar results closer to the first example. But no one is defending A9s unless they a regfish.
villain="tt-77,AQs-A9s" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5
Results:
Trials
OUTFLOPPED
299518
45618 (15.23%)
Poker IS about making life easier for yourselves. Start thinking about everything in ranges and not specific hands
In Response to Re: What do you do here? : you don't seem to understand. 'readless' means we dont know what villains UTG opening range is, it means we dont know what his call3b range is, or his 4b range. calling preflop might be a small mistake vs this villain once we have played with him some more and understand how he plays, but 3b/stacking off is going to be a MASSIVE mistake if this villain is someone who will just 4b/c QQ+ and fold all hands we beat except maybe TT/AQ. you seem to say that you want to 3b pre so you can make an easier decisions later on, that is not how you should be thinking about poker Posted by LOL_RAISE
mostly agree with this but what do you do if someone 3bets out of the blinds?
When we both flop overpairs it's just as messy in a 3b pot, prob more 4way pot with prem pair, so what. It's not ideal but should still be profitable I'm not sure what those figures are meant to prove. I don't doubt their accuracy, just not sure what you think they mean. Are they meant to represent opening or 3b calling range, or a mix? Most people that posted in this thread clearly think in ranges, so not sure what that comment is about Making life easier is not the primary concern in poker, although I think its prob ok to sacrifice a small amount of EV If you think you will make mistakes later in hand
Well I was kinda glad this thread had died off as its seems like a lost cause to me... maybe one person understands an ounce of what I am getting at and then its worth it. Otherwise I'm fine to agree to disagree, smile and move on.
There's no right answer, just different strategies/opinions/camps each to their own in the end.
But its important to just understand different perspectives... too often in this Clinic i see bandwagon posting with ten identical posts to the first reply.. no one learns from that apart from maybe the OP. I'm not saying everyone should disagree with everything but just bring some perspective to the table - if you wanna make the Clinic a stronger place and get the likes of 100nl+ players posting in here... then thats what it needs.
I.e. read a post by someone, agree/disagree, go away and challenge your own opinion with some studying, then reply. Don't just pick a camp or follow the first reg that replied. (this isn't aimed at you grantorino or perci or anyone in specific, just a general view of mine from posting here for a couple of months mainly in the 50nl+ threads).
So in response to your points..
When we both flop overpairs it's just as messy in a 3b pot, prob more
I don't think this is true, as we define 3 scenarios by 3betting:-
1) We fold out weak utg hands
3) We dominate his 3bet call range
2) UTG 4bets his nut range (like 9/10 50nl regs will be as they're all chasing points) so no decision post flop imo
The point being postflop we play a "bottled range" of his UTG opening hands; which excludes the top {QQ-AA,AK} and the bottom {Some broadways, small pairs, maybe suited connectors, etc) of this range.
I'm not sure what those figures are meant to prove. Are they meant to represent opening or 3b calling range, or a mix?
They represent a mix. 13% represents an UTG standard opening range, whatever "shape" you wanna give it.
The rest are varying 3bet call ranges and show how often villains ranges have >50% post flop but <50% preflop. ie they outflop us.
Most people that posted in this thread clearly think in ranges, so not sure what that comment is about
Maybe your right, maybe I was just pretty fed up with having to clarify every point I made in each of my posts. And felt like the topic was just being discussed on the merits/cons of JJ instead of a "3bet value range" as per my first post.
seems easy answer to me if some 1 had a higher pair they would reraise preflop surely im confident your ahead here so im calling down n let the lower pairs n bluffs in Posted by IDONKCALLU
Have a look at the hand again.
They couldn't re raise pre as the villain raised utg, then hero flats.
Comments
you seem to say that you want to 3b pre so you can make an easier decisions later on, that is not how you should be thinking about poker
Example 3; TT-22, (pairs yey range)Example 4; TT-77,T9s-76s (med pairs + SCs)Its only when they start calling with Suited Ax in their utg 3bet defending range that we start getting similar results closer to the first example. But no one is defending A9s unless they a regfish.villain="tt-77,AQs-A9s" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.54way pot with prem pair, so what. It's not ideal but should still be profitable
I'm not sure what those figures are meant to prove. I don't doubt their accuracy, just not sure what you think they mean. Are they meant to represent opening or 3b calling range, or a mix?
Most people that posted in this thread clearly think in ranges, so not sure what that comment is about
Making life easier is not the primary concern in poker, although I think its prob ok to sacrifice a small amount of EV If you think you will make mistakes later in hand
They couldn't re raise pre as the villain raised utg, then hero flats.