Just read this thread by chicknMelt completely agree with what he's said and needs changing in line with other poker sites. Very small amount of players can make a worthwhile profit with 10% rake at turbo DYMS If this was halved to 5% volume same as heads up games are. It would benefit EVERYONE?! Personally I'm on SNGS -1.9% 4th highest volume this year and through promos/rake or v weak tables/times its a scrape but at 5% on a regular basis I think volume through the site at all times would increase significantly making a chance for a lot more players to win at these games long term with more significant profits for a lot more players and I think game volume increase significantly through the site at a guess increase 3x more?! I for one at 5% may start to put a lot more volume on non promo times and it would be a great option to have. I don't have the time to just play for rake back for dyms. Sky is a great site overall many benefits but this is probably the worst thing about it currently and its not a avenue that many players can go down on a regular basis. Really think 5% would be win win for everyone?!
I've been saying same thing as Melt since about 2013 for SNGs and Turbos.
Turbo DYMs - I've played about 20k DYMs on here lifetime and won at a decent ROI, but I play these during double points, and even then I table select pretty hard because I believe that's the only way to be break even or win before RB. They're not really Turbo DYMs either, they're Hyper DYMs. 4-5% rake and I'd probs open reg these. 10% and I won't touch them because they're unbeatable.
Regular SNGs could definitely be dropped to 5% rake too, just to try and encourage regs to start games, at which point recs might also start joining and these games actually start to run.
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BH rake - Can't see this dropping on Sky given their popularity. Even if the rake is more than other sites, I can't see it making business sense, particularly if Sky Poker isn't going to be around this time next year. They're just not going to gain the players to make up for it IMO. I'd obvs like a rake drop though, as would any player.
Turbo BH rake - Contrary to the above, this defo needs dropping. Definitely puts me off playing these games whenever I have played the occasional MTT session in the past.
One of the top regs has crushed them games (£11turbo dym) over a pretty significant sample up to a fairly recent date, i'd hazard a guess the breakeven/losing stretches are not related to the games getting tougher but the fact alot of them players have been mass multitabling for promos/rb this year and sacrificing edge to do so or they simply are not good actually very good regs, i may be wrong though as i don't play them games and wouldn't know who many of the regs are.
As far as i'm aware lower stake turbo dyms and spin up games are amongst the most popular games on the site, probably because all varieties of recs find them fun to play and don't care about the rake, so it's unlikely sky are bothered about changing anything whilst that continues to be the case. I think it's just a balance that you have to accept playing on Sky high rake= significantly softer player pool, the people who are aware and can't make money in spite of this have the option to play the other sites you mention and Sky are probably not bothered to lose that particular % of the player pool.
fwiw i'm a high volume hu hyper player so completely understand the points you're making in regards to competitors rake compared to skys, just a few factors that also need to be taken into consideration when questioning why it is the case.
You are lucky the rake isn't 10% for HUSNGs!
fwiw, I would accept paying more rake on sky than other places... but when it gets to double your nearest competitor, it doesn't seem right.
The rake for HU hypers is relatively as high on Sky compared to other sites you mention, two major sites are actually less than 2% rake for the same games at mid/high stakes as opposed to the 5% on Sky. It's not that I completely disagree with your points the rake is very high when compared to other sites, it's just that i think a few other quite important factors needed to be considered in the argument.
Would any current turbo dym regs honestly be happy if the site lowered rake but to do this cut back on promos/rakeback and every game had 4/5 decent players, what is the incentive then to play on sky as opposed to the other sites?
Just to keep you appraised, I've passed the thread upstairs, though I doubt they'll comment, as they rarely contribute to business sensitive discussions on the Forum.
Once the thread has had a little more time to breathe, I'll comment (for better or worse...), as the thread lacks a little balance, though that's now starting to be addressed as the day goes on. Good forum threads do that, with sentiment swinging back & forth as both sides of the debate are developed.
Have to say, I do think the whole issue of product pricing needs to be looked at with a wider lens & perspective generally rather than just looking at a single product price.
Please keep the feedback & comments coming, it's all good.
One of the top regs has crushed them games (£11turbo dym) over a pretty significant sample up to a fairly recent date, i'd hazard a guess the breakeven/losing stretches are not related to the games getting tougher but the fact alot of them players have been mass multitabling for promos/rb this year and sacrificing edge to do so or they simply are not good actually very good regs, i may be wrong though as i don't play them games and wouldn't know who many of the regs are.
As far as i'm aware lower stake turbo dyms and spin up games are amongst the most popular games on the site, probably because all varieties of recs find them fun to play and don't care about the rake, so it's unlikely sky are bothered about changing anything whilst that continues to be the case. I think it's just a balance that you have to accept playing on Sky high rake= significantly softer player pool, the people who are aware and can't make money in spite of this have the option to play the other sites you mention and Sky are probably not bothered to lose that particular % of the player pool.
fwiw i'm a high volume hu hyper player so completely understand the points you're making in regards to competitors rake compared to skys, just a few factors that also need to be taken into consideration when questioning why it is the case.
You are lucky the rake isn't 10% for HUSNGs!
fwiw, I would accept paying more rake on sky than other places... but when it gets to double your nearest competitor, it doesn't seem right.
The rake for HU hypers is relatively as high on Sky compared to other sites you mention, two major sites are actually less than 2% rake for the same games at mid/high stakes as opposed to the 5% on Sky. It's not that I completely disagree with your points the rake is very high when compared to other sites, it's just that i think a few other quite important factors needed to be considered in the argument.
Would any current turbo dym regs honestly be happy if the site lowered rake but to do this cut back on promos/rakeback and every game had 4/5 decent players, what is the incentive then to play on sky as opposed to the other sites?
Its already like this, or was when I played at least. You are lucky if you find a game with less than 4 regs, especially during peak times. If you monitor the lobbies endlessly and game select hard you can catch a few though.
-edit-
Promos generally make the gamers tougher, and the prizes tend to go to a few select regs...so I'm not sure many of the dym [population would be that annoyed at less dym promos (rake races). Could be wrong though.
I don't play Poker online anymore as I didn't have the backing funds to play a decent enough level to make it worthwhile but I thought i'd check the site out as I know it's going through a transition period....
The thing is, right, if you aren't happy with the rake levels and believe other websites are offering a better deal then why aren't you playing there instead? In other words, what is it you prefer about Sky and aren't we to assume by you still playing here that those things are a bigger factor for you than the rake levels?
Its already like this, or was when I played at least. You are lucky if you find a game with less than 4 regs, especially during peak times. If you monitor the lobbies endlessly and game select hard you can catch a few though.
-edit-
Promos generally make the gamers tougher, and the prizes tend to go to a few select regs...so I'm not sure many of the dym [population would be that annoyed at less dym promos (rake races). Could be wrong though.
While I can compete in any given rakerace if I'm motivated enough to do so, I personally prefer the streak style promos where there is still a reward for being better at the game (i.e. I'm more likely to win any given game and I can put in more volume than random 1 tabling rec, therefore I'm far more likely to win enough games in a row to win a prize) but there's also some opportunity for any given player to just heater 15 games in a row and win the promo regardless of how many tables they play or how good/bad they are at the game.
I'm a fan of the Golden Tickets promo for similar reasons - Rewards volume but still gives incentive to recs to play as well because they can still get 10 points playing one table of 4nl for a couple of hours and win the top prize.
Thanks for the feedback TK, nice to know it has been passed on.
No worries Andy.
Oh, & well done (?) on making the FT Bubble in last night's Main. Unless I'm mistaken, you must have been playing that (& no doubt several other MTT's) in parallel with getting this thread up & running. Impressive multi-tasking that......
I am a regular of sorts in the TDYMs and could maybe answer a few points on why I continue to play the games despite the high rake.
First off, sharkscope will show me to be a lifetime loser in these games, over a 36k sample I have an average buyin of £7.66 and an average ROI of just under -1%.
The rakeback gained over the month is 30% as a priority member (assuming you are hitting 10,000 points) and the way I see it is that for every buyin I would be raking enough for 30% back of each buyin. This would make the games essentially 7% rake games rather than 10%.
Given I am currently a -1% ROIer this would change to +2% ROIer with rakeback included. Added to that the promos help keep the games full with double points and leaderboards.
I do think the TDYMs should be raked at 5% max as the edges are so thin with 2 min levels. 3-4% rake is about right for these types games in an ideal world however I would wonder whether Sky would keep the rakeback program and other promos if that were the case. Overall I think Sky make the games appealing enough to continue to play them.
Have been testing out new formats this year to see if more can be made elsewhere as it's pretty heavy going for not a lot of money. I have noticed that the games are more reggy recently and even seeing more good MTTers having a go thus making some games impossible to beat long term even with rakeback.
Why do I continue to play them? - they are pretty fun and quick! You get into loads of interesting spots and the focus required can be intense to eek out small profit, it's not for everyone and I can totally understand why others would find them unappealing.
For the long-term I would wonder whether or not the games will continue to run at the same rate with the high rake. Time will tell.
If spin up games were rake free for HU play we would just be losing money long term and they'd be very abusable. We already offer double points on them to incentivise games starting.
I am a regular of sorts in the TDYMs and could maybe answer a few points on why I continue to play the games despite the high rake.
First off, sharkscope will show me to be a lifetime loser in these games, over a 36k sample I have an average buyin of £7.66 and an average ROI of just under -1%.
The rakeback gained over the month is 30% as a priority member (assuming you are hitting 10,000 points) and the way I see it is that for every buyin I would be raking enough for 30% back of each buyin. This would make the games essentially 7% rake games rather than 10%.
Given I am currently a -1% ROIer this would change to +2% ROIer with rakeback included. Added to that the promos help keep the games full with double points and leaderboards.
I do think the TDYMs should be raked at 5% max as the edges are so thin with 2 min levels. 3-4% rake is about right for these types games in an ideal world however I would wonder whether Sky would keep the rakeback program and other promos if that were the case. Overall I think Sky make the games appealing enough to continue to play them.
Have been testing out new formats this year to see if more can be made elsewhere as it's pretty heavy going for not a lot of money. I have noticed that the games are more reggy recently and even seeing more good MTTers having a go thus making some games impossible to beat long term even with rakeback.
Why do I continue to play them? - they are pretty fun and quick! You get into loads of interesting spots and the focus required can be intense to eek out small profit, it's not for everyone and I can totally understand why others would find them unappealing.
For the long-term I would wonder whether or not the games will continue to run at the same rate with the high rake. Time will tell.
Fair play, You almost made DYM's sound not terrible.
Rake free spins hu would be wonderful but a terrible idea for sky. Not that it affects me in the slightest but think the rake for turbo dym's is probably too high, but can't imagine sky benefitting from reducing it. Guess the higher rake is a trade off for the softer games for those that are willing to pay the additional rake. For winning players put off by the higher rake it just makes it better for the regs who play it. Dropping rake probably sounds better in theory than in practice where the games probably toughen up slightly and rakeback would be lower by virtue of paying less rake.
If spin up games were rake free for HU play we would just be losing money long term and they'd be very abusable. We already offer double points on them to incentivise games starting.
Fair enough - My thinking was that losing the HU rake would be offset by keeping more games running, then more people joining those HU games and keeping the rake coming in once they join, as opposed to the game breaking.
What about maybe half rake then? Tbh my experience on the cash tables in general is that games just break HU between 2 regs the vast majority of the time, and I don't think double points is either advertised well enough or a significant enough discount for regs to take it into consideration and keep games running
Might be useful to put some solid figures from my experiences into this discussion.
If you 6 table the £11 turbo DYM format for 120 hours per month (28 hours per week), you will play 3k games and earn 30k points. This allows for starting, and winding down a session when you have less than 6 tables running. You would obviously need to play longer if you play in periods when there are not enough players around.
Assuming you don't have any weeks where you dip under 2k points, you will earn £1050 (3.5p per point) in rewards payments for the month. This could be less if there have been any double points promotions, as the monthly part of the payment (£450) is calculated on rakeback.
Add to this the Priority benefits including, Priority monthly draw, MTT bubble insurance, Jackpot boost and Birthday bonus , plus having a decent shot at the promotions Sky run. You can pick up some of the lower prizes in the rake races, and have a decent chance in the raffles.
Using the £1050 figure on £33k turnover per month, and assuming you can break even on the games, that works out at £8.75 per hour plus benefits.
For every negative 1% of profit you would lose £330 per month, or £2.75 per hour.
So yes, at 10% it gets very tight even for the best players.
Had a quick read through the thread, a few thoughts came to mind.
Sky isn't actually significantly softer than other sites in my opinion. I think that is vastly over rated by some people in this thread. The standard of player is largely based on the stakes you are playing. It doesn't really matter what site you are playing on. Also, sky has quite a poker community, a lot of people that play poker as a hobby and are interested in and actively try to get better rather than just punters coming for a quick gamble.
Rake should be at a level where people think its still possible to make a profit, or you will only ever be low stakes games running. Because if they care about the money, they care about their chance to win.
If rake is reduced more people will be encouraged to play, because they think they can actually win. Fun players will play for longer, because they haven't lost as quick. It gives much more opportunity for higher stakes to run, because more people have won and moved up in stakes and recreational players that care about their investment still see opportunity to profit.
Bit of an eye opener this thread, I don't play many DYM's, but when I do it was the Turbo format and this year I have only played them during the streak promotion as that was good fun.
The important bit of this thread for me is that it seems that no one (or possibly 1 or 2) has managed to make a profit at the TDYM format over a decent sample size. I wouldn't expect to be a winning player at something straight away, however the incentive should be there that if you work hard enough then you can win, but it seems that this isn't likely and even the top players are relying on rake back and promos to make profit - this is wrong and makes it appear that the rake charged by Sky on this format is ripping people off. I totally understand that a company can charge what they like and if people like a product they are sometimes happy to pay a bit more, but it has put me off playing them having read this.
Personally I've got no problem with the 10% rake on current TDYM's (which is what I play most often) as I am profitable on them. However, it does surprise me that Sky do not have a competitive rake level in comparison with other websites.
I was already considering spending more time on other sites rather than Sky because of the lack of £55 TDYM's running at the moment. Learning that their rake is not competitive pushes me closer to making that jump to other websites. Why would I not take the effective "free profit" that the lower rake would provide on another site?
Comments
Agree with everything else, but this isn't true, maybe more variance for coming first, but far less variance per game
Turbo DYMs - I've played about 20k DYMs on here lifetime and won at a decent ROI, but I play these during double points, and even then I table select pretty hard because I believe that's the only way to be break even or win before RB. They're not really Turbo DYMs either, they're Hyper DYMs. 4-5% rake and I'd probs open reg these. 10% and I won't touch them because they're unbeatable.
Regular SNGs could definitely be dropped to 5% rake too, just to try and encourage regs to start games, at which point recs might also start joining and these games actually start to run.
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BH rake - Can't see this dropping on Sky given their popularity. Even if the rake is more than other sites, I can't see it making business sense, particularly if Sky Poker isn't going to be around this time next year. They're just not going to gain the players to make up for it IMO. I'd obvs like a rake drop though, as would any player.
Turbo BH rake - Contrary to the above, this defo needs dropping. Definitely puts me off playing these games whenever I have played the occasional MTT session in the past.
The rake for HU hypers is relatively as high on Sky compared to other sites you mention, two major sites are actually less than 2% rake for the same games at mid/high stakes as opposed to the 5% on Sky. It's not that I completely disagree with your points the rake is very high when compared to other sites, it's just that i think a few other quite important factors needed to be considered in the argument.
Would any current turbo dym regs honestly be happy if the site lowered rake but to do this cut back on promos/rakeback and every game had 4/5 decent players, what is the incentive then to play on sky as opposed to the other sites?
Afternoon.
Just to keep you appraised, I've passed the thread upstairs, though I doubt they'll comment, as they rarely contribute to business sensitive discussions on the Forum.
Once the thread has had a little more time to breathe, I'll comment (for better or worse...), as the thread lacks a little balance, though that's now starting to be addressed as the day goes on. Good forum threads do that, with sentiment swinging back & forth as both sides of the debate are developed.
Have to say, I do think the whole issue of product pricing needs to be looked at with a wider lens & perspective generally rather than just looking at a single product price.
Please keep the feedback & comments coming, it's all good.
Thanks.
-edit-
Promos generally make the gamers tougher, and the prizes tend to go to a few select regs...so I'm not sure many of the dym [population would be that annoyed at less dym promos (rake races). Could be wrong though.
The thing is, right, if you aren't happy with the rake levels and believe other websites are offering a better deal then why aren't you playing there instead?
I'm a fan of the Golden Tickets promo for similar reasons - Rewards volume but still gives incentive to recs to play as well because they can still get 10 points playing one table of 4nl for a couple of hours and win the top prize.
Oh, & well done (?) on making the FT Bubble in last night's Main. Unless I'm mistaken, you must have been playing that (& no doubt several other MTT's) in parallel with getting this thread up & running. Impressive multi-tasking that......
I am a regular of sorts in the TDYMs and could maybe answer a few points on why I continue to play the games despite the high rake.
First off, sharkscope will show me to be a lifetime loser in these games, over a 36k sample I have an average buyin of £7.66 and an average ROI of just under -1%.
The rakeback gained over the month is 30% as a priority member (assuming you are hitting 10,000 points) and the way I see it is that for every buyin I would be raking enough for 30% back of each buyin. This would make the games essentially 7% rake games rather than 10%.
Given I am currently a -1% ROIer this would change to +2% ROIer with rakeback included. Added to that the promos help keep the games full with double points and leaderboards.
I do think the TDYMs should be raked at 5% max as the edges are so thin with 2 min levels. 3-4% rake is about right for these types games in an ideal world however I would wonder whether Sky would keep the rakeback program and other promos if that were the case. Overall I think Sky make the games appealing enough to continue to play them.
Have been testing out new formats this year to see if more can be made elsewhere as it's pretty heavy going for not a lot of money. I have noticed that the games are more reggy recently and even seeing more good MTTers having a go thus making some games impossible to beat long term even with rakeback.
Why do I continue to play them? - they are pretty fun and quick! You get into loads of interesting spots and the focus required can be intense to eek out small profit, it's not for everyone and I can totally understand why others would find them unappealing.
For the long-term I would wonder whether or not the games will continue to run at the same rate with the high rake. Time will tell.
Rake free spins hu would be wonderful but a terrible idea for sky.
Not that it affects me in the slightest but think the rake for turbo dym's is probably too high, but can't imagine sky benefitting from reducing it. Guess the higher rake is a trade off for the softer games for those that are willing to pay the additional rake. For winning players put off by the higher rake it just makes it better for the regs who play it. Dropping rake probably sounds better in theory than in practice where the games probably toughen up slightly and rakeback would be lower by virtue of paying less rake.
What about maybe half rake then? Tbh my experience on the cash tables in general is that games just break HU between 2 regs the vast majority of the time, and I don't think double points is either advertised well enough or a significant enough discount for regs to take it into consideration and keep games running
If you 6 table the £11 turbo DYM format for 120 hours per month (28 hours per week), you will play 3k games and earn 30k points. This allows for starting, and winding down a session when you have less than 6 tables running. You would obviously need to play longer if you play in periods when there are not enough players around.
Assuming you don't have any weeks where you dip under 2k points, you will earn £1050 (3.5p per point) in rewards payments for the month. This could be less if there have been any double points promotions, as the monthly part of the payment (£450) is calculated on rakeback.
Add to this the Priority benefits including, Priority monthly draw, MTT bubble insurance, Jackpot boost and Birthday bonus , plus having a decent shot at the promotions Sky run.
You can pick up some of the lower prizes in the rake races, and have a decent chance in the raffles.
Using the £1050 figure on £33k turnover per month, and assuming you can break even on the games, that works out at £8.75 per hour plus benefits.
For every negative 1% of profit you would lose £330 per month, or £2.75 per hour.
So yes, at 10% it gets very tight even for the best players.
Sky isn't actually significantly softer than other sites in my opinion. I think that is vastly over rated by some people in this thread. The standard of player is largely based on the stakes you are playing. It doesn't really matter what site you are playing on. Also, sky has quite a poker community, a lot of people that play poker as a hobby and are interested in and actively try to get better rather than just punters coming for a quick gamble.
Rake should be at a level where people think its still possible to make a profit, or you will only ever be low stakes games running. Because if they care about the money, they care about their chance to win.
If rake is reduced more people will be encouraged to play, because they think they can actually win. Fun players will play for longer, because they haven't lost as quick. It gives much more opportunity for higher stakes to run, because more people have won and moved up in stakes and recreational players that care about their investment still see opportunity to profit.
The important bit of this thread for me is that it seems that no one (or possibly 1 or 2) has managed to make a profit at the TDYM format over a decent sample size. I wouldn't expect to be a winning player at something straight away, however the incentive should be there that if you work hard enough then you can win, but it seems that this isn't likely and even the top players are relying on rake back and promos to make profit - this is wrong and makes it appear that the rake charged by Sky on this format is ripping people off. I totally understand that a company can charge what they like and if people like a product they are sometimes happy to pay a bit more, but it has put me off playing them having read this.
Personally I've got no problem with the 10% rake on current TDYM's (which is what I play most often) as I am profitable on them. However, it does surprise me that Sky do not have a competitive rake level in comparison with other websites.
I was already considering spending more time on other sites rather than Sky because of the lack of £55 TDYM's running at the moment. Learning that their rake is not competitive pushes me closer to making that jump to other websites. Why would I not take the effective "free profit" that the lower rake would provide on another site?