Medium as in stakes and do you prefer cash games or MTTs ?
Medium stakes ye. The guys at high are proper crushers and unbeatable.
Mainly cash or zoom PLO unless UKOPS or WCOOP is on.
OK mate what's the main site you play on like ? With you saying ZOOM PLO I assume you play on Stars also. Do you think 50nl on Sky is way softer than 50nl on Stars whether it be normal or ZOOM tables ?
My main problem in the past has been my mental game.
My last attempt I was 6 tabling 10nl with a £150 bank roll. I genuinely believe that I can beat 10nl but I have no evidence to support this, at least not over a decent sample. I know 100% I am a decent winner at 4nl over a decent sample, however I know this is not hard at all for anyone with basic poker knowledge.
The first day or two I was up at least 5 buy-ins then on the third day I dropped back to even or just below what I started with on day one and this had a real negative impact on my thought process. Writing it now it seems pathetic as It was probably only a 3 day (15 hour BE stretch) and I would of probably overcome it if I kept on playing. Its just that I had never had such a long BE stretch at 4nl even though it was only roughly 7.5k hands.
I understand that volume is the key to moving up and you should not beat yourself up over a loosing session here and there as the higher the stakes you play, the better your opponents will be and the higher the variance will be.
I'm thinking maybe wait till I have £400 (40 buy-ins for 10nl) then like K0BAYASHl said play something along the lines of 4 x 10nl and 2 x 4nl tables. I think the more buy-ins that I have the more comfortable I am going to feel as like last time starting with just 15 buy-ins and then dropping to below what I started with I felt the pressure that if I don't win a few buy-ins in the next day or so I am going to have to move down again which is something I did not want.
Nothing comes close to experience. It really is the be all and end all. The more you play the better you will get in every aspect including the mental side.
Thanks for your reply, can I ask whether you play for a living or for fun/side income, what stakes you play and HU or 6-max ?
Play for fun/Side income. Always nice to have an extra income. I mainly play HU, sometimes ill dabble in the spin ups. Used to grind 10/20/30nl but just do HU for the time being.
Goodluck with your next move. You will crush 10nl. Its just ABC tight Aggro.
Medium as in stakes and do you prefer cash games or MTTs ?
Medium stakes ye. The guys at high are proper crushers and unbeatable.
Mainly cash or zoom PLO unless UKOPS or WCOOP is on.
OK mate what's the main site you play on like ? With you saying ZOOM PLO I assume you play on Stars also. Do you think 50nl on Sky is way softer than 50nl on Stars whether it be normal or ZOOM tables ?
50NL on Sky is way softer in a vacuum but because Stars is so busy in comparison if you are a pimp master table selector then Stars is actually softer.
Thanks for your reply, can I ask whether you play for a living or for fun/side income, what stakes you play and HU or 6-max ?
Play for fun/Side income. Always nice to have an extra income. I mainly play HU, sometimes ill dabble in the spin ups. Used to grind 10/20/30nl but just do HU for the time being.
Goodluck with your next move. You will crush 10nl. Its just ABC tight Aggro.
Medium as in stakes and do you prefer cash games or MTTs ?
Medium stakes ye. The guys at high are proper crushers and unbeatable.
Mainly cash or zoom PLO unless UKOPS or WCOOP is on.
OK mate what's the main site you play on like ? With you saying ZOOM PLO I assume you play on Stars also. Do you think 50nl on Sky is way softer than 50nl on Stars whether it be normal or ZOOM tables ?
50NL on Sky is way softer in a vacuum but because Stars is so busy in comparison if you are a pimp master table selector then Stars is actually softer.
Do you think even now there is no RB on Stars it is still more profitable to play 50nl there appose to Sky ? I mean I understand the added benefits for some people of playing at Stars like the use of HUDS (personally I like it without HUDS) better software, better traffic etc.
Do you have a decent sample size at 50nl on Stars and if so and you don't mind posting your win rate ? Talking NLHE here also not PLO.
I've never played NL cash on Stars. Only MTTs and PLO Zoom.
Yes the huds and stuff suck plus all the additional software hence why I don't play it there. You just can't beat all that scripting ****. However if you wana be a douchebag and use a script then Stars is more profitable than Sky at 50NL.
You asked about the difference between 4nl-10nl and 20nl+ on Sky and, in my experience, you'll find two trends the higher you go:
Firstly, the average ratio of solid regs to weaker recreational players per table increases. Table selecting gets a bad rap sometimes but it becomes increasingly important as you climb the stakes a little. The brutal reality is that if you have 6 equally skilled players on the same table, they will all be losing due to the rake.
The second difference you'll find is in the general level of aggression in the games. This will be most pronounced pre flop so be prepared to face 3bets and 4bets at a noticeably higher frequency.
In terms of the best approach for yourself moving forward, it really depends upon where you feel you are currently at in your poker skill set and what your immediate goals are. Pounding out the highest level of volume you can profitably muster at whichever stakes you are currently beating is undoubtedly a good way of maximising your hourly, but it's also a pretty poor way of improving as a player - you spend far too much of your playing time auto-piloting and making too many rushed decisions.
I think the best course of action would be a combination of 6 tabling your chosen stakes for the purpose of building your bankroll, but then also putting aside some time each week where you only play one or two tables at the most. Use these low volume sessions as a training aide and think about each spot far more deeply than you would normally. You don't even have to be involved in a hand for this to be useful. For example, if you have a trivial fold pre flop, ask yourself what your 3bet range would look like here? When a flop comes and you're not involved, think about what your value range would be and what hands in your range would make the best bluffs... I'm sure you get the gist. This extra time is also a good opportunity to take more comprehensive notes on frequently faced opponents.
Finally, although it will vary at times, I'd say 50nl as a whole is a little softer on Sky than it is on Stars. For what it's worth though, Stars have very recently banned seating scripts, so finding decent tables is probably a bit more manageable over there now than it was (although rakeback remains virtually non-existent).
You asked about the difference between 4nl-10nl and 20nl+ on Sky and, in my experience, you'll find two trends the higher you go:
Firstly, the average ratio of solid regs to weaker recreational players per table increases. Table selecting gets a bad rap sometimes but it becomes increasingly important as you climb the stakes a little. The brutal reality is that if you have 6 equally skilled players on the same table, they will all be losing due to the rake.
The second difference you'll find is in the general level of aggression in the games. This will be most pronounced pre flop so be prepared to face 3bets and 4bets at a noticeably higher frequency.
In terms of the best approach for yourself moving forward, it really depends upon where you feel you are currently at in your poker skill set and what your immediate goals are. Pounding out the highest level of volume you can profitably muster at whichever stakes you are currently beating is undoubtedly a good way of maximising your hourly, but it's also a pretty poor way of improving as a player - you spend far too much of your playing time auto-piloting and making too many rushed decisions.
I think the best course of action would be a combination of 6 tabling your chosen stakes for the purpose of building your bankroll, but then also putting aside some time each week where you only play one or two tables at the most. Use these low volume sessions as a training aide and think about each spot far more deeply than you would normally. You don't even have to be involved in a hand for this to be useful. For example, if you have a trivial fold pre flop, ask yourself what your 3bet range would look like here? When a flop comes and you're not involved, think about what your value range would be and what hands in your range would make the best bluffs... I'm sure you get the gist. This extra time is also a good opportunity to take more comprehensive notes on frequently faced opponents.
Finally, although it will vary at times, I'd say 50nl as a whole is a little softer on Sky than it is on Stars. For what it's worth though, Stars have very recently banned seating scripts, so finding decent tables is probably a bit more manageable over there now than it was (although rakeback remains virtually non-existent).
Great post, thanks again for taking the time to write that mate
My general aim is to improve as a player strategically and also try and master the mental side of the game which in my opinion is way harder than the strategy side.
It makes a lot of sense what you said as to playing maybe 5 days a week at my usual 4nl stakes to keep building the bank roll then using the other 2 days as training sessions whilst playing the next stakes up and less tables.
I think I am going to start a Cash Game Log to track my progress through the stakes. I tried on Cardschat but there just wasn't that much interest. It seems like a pretty decent environment here at Sky Poker Forum and even though people are aware they will be playing against certain people they are still willing to give advice and discuss certain topics which I think is very selfless.
@ Duesenberg, KOBAYASHI and kapowblamz thanks for all your replies and making me feel welcome here at the forum. I will be making a progress thread at some point tomorrow and I hope that you's will all pop in from time to time. GL to all of you lot at the tables
You asked about the difference between 4nl-10nl and 20nl+ on Sky and, in my experience, you'll find two trends the higher you go:
Firstly, the average ratio of solid regs to weaker recreational players per table increases. Table selecting gets a bad rap sometimes but it becomes increasingly important as you climb the stakes a little. The brutal reality is that if you have 6 equally skilled players on the same table, they will all be losing due to the rake.
The second difference you'll find is in the general level of aggression in the games. This will be most pronounced pre flop so be prepared to face 3bets and 4bets at a noticeably higher frequency.
In terms of the best approach for yourself moving forward, it really depends upon where you feel you are currently at in your poker skill set and what your immediate goals are. Pounding out the highest level of volume you can profitably muster at whichever stakes you are currently beating is undoubtedly a good way of maximising your hourly, but it's also a pretty poor way of improving as a player - you spend far too much of your playing time auto-piloting and making too many rushed decisions.
I think the best course of action would be a combination of 6 tabling your chosen stakes for the purpose of building your bankroll, but then also putting aside some time each week where you only play one or two tables at the most. Use these low volume sessions as a training aide and think about each spot far more deeply than you would normally. You don't even have to be involved in a hand for this to be useful. For example, if you have a trivial fold pre flop, ask yourself what your 3bet range would look like here? When a flop comes and you're not involved, think about what your value range would be and what hands in your range would make the best bluffs... I'm sure you get the gist. This extra time is also a good opportunity to take more comprehensive notes on frequently faced opponents.
Finally, although it will vary at times, I'd say 50nl as a whole is a little softer on Sky than it is on Stars. For what it's worth though, Stars have very recently banned seating scripts, so finding decent tables is probably a bit more manageable over there now than it was (although rakeback remains virtually non-existent).
Great post, thanks again for taking the time to write that mate
My general aim is to improve as a player strategically and also try and master the mental side of the game which in my opinion is way harder than the strategy side.
It makes a lot of sense what you said as to playing maybe 5 days a week at my usual 4nl stakes to keep building the bank roll then using the other 2 days as training sessions whilst playing the next stakes up and less tables.
I think I am going to start a Cash Game Log to track my progress through the stakes. I tried on Cardschat but there just wasn't that much interest. It seems like a pretty decent environment here at Sky Poker Forum and even though people are aware they will be playing against certain people they are still willing to give advice and discuss certain topics which I think is very selfless.
@ Duesenberg, KOBAYASHI and kapowblamz thanks for all your replies and making me feel welcome here at the forum. I will be making a progress thread at some point tomorrow and I hope that you's will all pop in from time to time. GL to all of you lot at the tables
You’re welcome. Will follow your progress thread with interest when you start it. I may be a silent reader though
My advice Alan fwiw would be not to skip 10nl. You said that tilt is a major issue for you, it's far easier to be pragmatic at 10nl than it is at 20 or 30. It's quite common to be a winning player and lose 5 bi in a session, that's £100 at 20nl if you tilt at 4nl then losing £100 will take some adjusting too. The rake at 10nl is absurd and a real bugbear of mine, it makes the games difficult to beat for beginners and I'm certain this puts people off poker who otherwise at a reasonable rake level would be winning players and take shots higher moving money up the poker ecosystem (are you reading sky?) 10nl players and below pay the highest percentage of rake and get the lowest percentage of rakeback as no one makes priority. As for standard as mentioned above it's just the number of regs increases as you go higher. There are a handful of 10nl regs who could crush 20nl but choose not to play any higher than 10, most likely due to my opening statement.
My advice Alan fwiw would be not to skip 10nl. You said that tilt is a major issue for you, it's far easier to be pragmatic at 10nl than it is at 20 or 30. It's quite common to be a winning player and lose 5 bi in a session, that's £100 at 20nl if you tilt at 4nl then losing £100 will take some adjusting too. The rake at 10nl is absurd and a real bugbear of mine, it makes the games difficult to beat for beginners and I'm certain this puts people off poker who otherwise at a reasonable rake level would be winning players and take shots higher moving money up the poker ecosystem (are you reading sky?) 10nl players and below pay the highest percentage of rake and get the lowest percentage of rakeback as no one makes priority. As for standard as mentioned above it's just the number of regs increases as you go higher. There are a handful of 10nl regs who could crush 20nl but choose not to play any higher than 10, most likely due to my opening statement.
Nice post Makes sense what you are saying mate, if I struggle to handle loosing sessions at 10nl then 20nl will most probably have a bigger impact on my mental game.
I am going to follow Duesenberg's advice and keep building my roll at 4nl but slowly add in a few 10nl sessions mainly for training purposes where I will be note taking and trying to think a lot more in depth about what I am doing and why.
Playing 6-8 tables at 4nl I am just playing on auto pilot and am sure I will be missing out on a lot of +EV spots. I mean there is no problem with it if you are already a winning player at that stake but when you first move up I am sure the best approach will be to take your time and really think about your decisions.
Are you a cash game player mate and if so what stakes ? GL anyway
I started playing on sky 4 years ago at 20nl and I didn't even consider thinking about an hourly rate until the past year. I think the main thing you should do is to just enjoy playing and getting better rather than thinking about the money side of things. As you play more you will get better and the money will come too. A lot of pros nowadays constantly worry about how much they make per hour and I think this has had such a negative effect on poker with pretty much all games that run online now are mostly based around waiting for fish. Obviously you will have a better hourly playing with fish however wheres the fun if you don't learn a thing or two a long the way of moving up stakes. My advice to trying to build up a roll would be to mix up your game selection and do try your best to play good games but also mix it up and challenge yourself too, when your at a comfortable roll to play that stake of course I think also a lot of the smaller stakes tournaments sky offer nowadays are pretty great value and would definitely help with building your roll even if they can seem slow and boring sometimes.
Nice to see @alancarr12 make a rare appearance on the forum and I think his point about prioritising improving over obsessing about your hourly is spot on.
If things go well then I've no doubt you'll be meeting @H3nry at the tables pretty soon. If you find yourself on @alancarr12's table then things will have gone very well indeed!
On the subject of mental game, I'm sure you'll be familiar with this but, in case you're not, The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler is probably the seminal text on the subject and is well worth invetsing in.
I started playing on sky 4 years ago at 20nl and I didn't even consider thinking about an hourly rate until the past year. I think the main thing you should do is to just enjoy playing and getting better rather than thinking about the money side of things. As you play more you will get better and the money will come too. A lot of pros nowadays constantly worry about how much they make per hour and I think this has had such a negative effect on poker with pretty much all games that run online now are mostly based around waiting for fish. Obviously you will have a better hourly playing with fish however wheres the fun if you don't learn a thing or two a long the way of moving up stakes. My advice to trying to build up a roll would be to mix up your game selection and do try your best to play good games but also mix it up and challenge yourself too, when your at a comfortable roll to play that stake of course I think also a lot of the smaller stakes tournaments sky offer nowadays are pretty great value and would definitely help with building your roll even if they can seem slow and boring sometimes.
Thanks for popping in mate I get were your coming from as improving as a player should be everybody's main goal and also like you said it's pretty boring after a while of just playing in games you know you can beat.
The goals I am going to set from now on are just going to be volume goals and setting time aside each week to study and improve my game.
If you don't mind me asking @alancarr12 apart from the obvious hard work that you have put in to get to where you are at now, what do you think was the best learning curve for you moving up the stakes ?
By that I mean was it skype study groups, training sites, private coaching, youtube, hand analysis etc ? It's just so refreshing to see someone who was playing 20nl 4 years ago playing the highest stakes available now and also happy to play other high stakes regs and not just bum hunting the "fun players" So big credit to you
There is already a bunch of guys on the Forum who have formed a Study Group, & their results have been startling. It's not done "on" the Forum, in fact i don't know how they do it or on which digital platform. They call themselves "Crusher Study Group", perhaps a little ironically, but they are good helpful guys, trust me. If it's of interest to you, let me know & I'll put you in touch with them.
You still going to start a "Progress" Diary on here? Hope so, you write very eloquently, & I'm quite sure it would gain a lot of traction & feedback.
Nice to see @alancarr12 make a rare appearance on the forum and I think his point about prioritising improving over obsessing about your hourly is spot on.
If things go well then I've no doubt you'll be meeting @H3nry at the tables pretty soon. If you find yourself on @alancarr12's table then things will have gone very well indeed!
On the subject of mental game, I'm sure you'll be familiar with this but, in case you're not, The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler is probably the seminal text on the subject and is well worth invetsing in.
Good luck
Heard lots of good stuff about Jared Tindlers work and have also watched a few of his videos on youtube. I have the PDF version of the book you mentioned saved on my laptop but have not started reading it yet.
@Duesenberg Talking about books in general are there any other good ones that you would recommend ? The only two I have read are "The theory of poker" by David Sklansky and "Crushing the micros" by BlackRain79
There is already a bunch of guys on the Forum who have formed a Study Group, & their results have been startling. It's not done "on" the Forum, in fact i don't know how they do it or on which digital platform. They call themselves "Crusher Study Group", perhaps a little ironically, but they are good helpful guys, trust me. If it's of interest to you, let me know & I'll put you in touch with them.
You still going to start a "Progress" Diary on here? Hope so, you write very eloquently, & I'm quite sure it would gain a lot of traction & feedback.
Hi @Tikay10 that's a kind offer mate If it is a study group for cash game players then yes I would be interested in getting in touch with them.
As for the progress diary yes I am going to start one on here as out of the 3 forums I have visited this has the best atmosphere and most helpful and generally accepting posters by a long shot. I have been made to feel so welcome and have received some really good advice from people who owe me nothing and at some point will be playing against me.
So big thanks to every one who has posted here I will be making my progress thread either tonight or tomorrow and will post a link in this thread for anyone who wants to op in. GL at the tables every one
Comments
Mainly cash or zoom PLO unless UKOPS or WCOOP is on.
Goodluck with your next move. You will crush 10nl. Its just ABC tight Aggro.
Do you have a decent sample size at 50nl on Stars and if so and you don't mind posting your win rate ? Talking NLHE here also not PLO.
Yes the huds and stuff suck plus all the additional software hence why I don't play it there. You just can't beat all that scripting ****. However if you wana be a douchebag and use a script then Stars is more profitable than Sky at 50NL.
You asked about the difference between 4nl-10nl and 20nl+ on Sky and, in my experience, you'll find two trends the higher you go:
Firstly, the average ratio of solid regs to weaker recreational players per table increases. Table selecting gets a bad rap sometimes but it becomes increasingly important as you climb the stakes a little. The brutal reality is that if you have 6 equally skilled players on the same table, they will all be losing due to the rake.
The second difference you'll find is in the general level of aggression in the games. This will be most pronounced pre flop so be prepared to face 3bets and 4bets at a noticeably higher frequency.
In terms of the best approach for yourself moving forward, it really depends upon where you feel you are currently at in your poker skill set and what your immediate goals are. Pounding out the highest level of volume you can profitably muster at whichever stakes you are currently beating is undoubtedly a good way of maximising your hourly, but it's also a pretty poor way of improving as a player - you spend far too much of your playing time auto-piloting and making too many rushed decisions.
I think the best course of action would be a combination of 6 tabling your chosen stakes for the purpose of building your bankroll, but then also putting aside some time each week where you only play one or two tables at the most. Use these low volume sessions as a training aide and think about each spot far more deeply than you would normally. You don't even have to be involved in a hand for this to be useful. For example, if you have a trivial fold pre flop, ask yourself what your 3bet range would look like here? When a flop comes and you're not involved, think about what your value range would be and what hands in your range would make the best bluffs... I'm sure you get the gist. This extra time is also a good opportunity to take more comprehensive notes on frequently faced opponents.
Finally, although it will vary at times, I'd say 50nl as a whole is a little softer on Sky than it is on Stars. For what it's worth though, Stars have very recently banned seating scripts, so finding decent tables is probably a bit more manageable over there now than it was (although rakeback remains virtually non-existent).
My general aim is to improve as a player strategically and also try and master the mental side of the game which in my opinion is way harder than the strategy side.
It makes a lot of sense what you said as to playing maybe 5 days a week at my usual 4nl stakes to keep building the bank roll then using the other 2 days as training sessions whilst playing the next stakes up and less tables.
I think I am going to start a Cash Game Log to track my progress through the stakes. I tried on Cardschat but there just wasn't that much interest. It seems like a pretty decent environment here at Sky Poker Forum and even though people are aware they will be playing against certain people they are still willing to give advice and discuss certain topics which I think is very selfless.
@ Duesenberg, KOBAYASHI and kapowblamz thanks for all your replies and making me feel welcome here at the forum. I will be making a progress thread at some point tomorrow and I hope that you's will all pop in from time to time. GL to all of you lot at the tables
The rake at 10nl is absurd and a real bugbear of mine, it makes the games difficult to beat for beginners and I'm certain this puts people off poker who otherwise at a reasonable rake level would be winning players and take shots higher moving money up the poker ecosystem (are you reading sky?) 10nl players and below pay the highest percentage of rake and get the lowest percentage of rakeback as no one makes priority.
As for standard as mentioned above it's just the number of regs increases as you go higher. There are a handful of 10nl regs who could crush 20nl but choose not to play any higher than 10, most likely due to my opening statement.
I am going to follow Duesenberg's advice and keep building my roll at 4nl but slowly add in a few 10nl sessions mainly for training purposes where I will be note taking and trying to think a lot more in depth about what I am doing and why.
Playing 6-8 tables at 4nl I am just playing on auto pilot and am sure I will be missing out on a lot of +EV spots. I mean there is no problem with it if you are already a winning player at that stake but when you first move up I am sure the best approach will be to take your time and really think about your decisions.
Are you a cash game player mate and if so what stakes ? GL anyway
If things go well then I've no doubt you'll be meeting @H3nry at the tables pretty soon. If you find yourself on @alancarr12's table then things will have gone very well indeed!
On the subject of mental game, I'm sure you'll be familiar with this but, in case you're not, The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler is probably the seminal text on the subject and is well worth invetsing in.
Good luck
The goals I am going to set from now on are just going to be volume goals and setting time aside each week to study and improve my game.
If you don't mind me asking @alancarr12 apart from the obvious hard work that you have put in to get to where you are at now, what do you think was the best learning curve for you moving up the stakes ?
By that I mean was it skype study groups, training sites, private coaching, youtube, hand analysis etc ? It's just so refreshing to see someone who was playing 20nl 4 years ago playing the highest stakes available now and also happy to play other high stakes regs and not just bum hunting the "fun players" So big credit to you
Hi @ALAN_18
Great thread, well done.
There is already a bunch of guys on the Forum who have formed a Study Group, & their results have been startling. It's not done "on" the Forum, in fact i don't know how they do it or on which digital platform. They call themselves "Crusher Study Group", perhaps a little ironically, but they are good helpful guys, trust me. If it's of interest to you, let me know & I'll put you in touch with them.
You still going to start a "Progress" Diary on here? Hope so, you write very eloquently, & I'm quite sure it would gain a lot of traction & feedback.
@Duesenberg Talking about books in general are there any other good ones that you would recommend ? The only two I have read are "The theory of poker" by David Sklansky and "Crushing the micros" by BlackRain79
As for the progress diary yes I am going to start one on here as out of the 3 forums I have visited this has the best atmosphere and most helpful and generally accepting posters by a long shot. I have been made to feel so welcome and have received some really good advice from people who owe me nothing and at some point will be playing against me.
So big thanks to every one who has posted here