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DYM and MTT Tournament Play

cobbler78cobbler78 Member Posts: 65
edited March 2010 in Poker Chat
I have been playing regularly for around 6 months now, and until recently have been playing the £5 DYM tournaments, my sharkscope graph was gradually going up, but with the 10% rake even if you win 5 and lose 4 you are not in any profit (well 50p). I found that I probably won around 65%-70% of these games over about 500 games, which was boosting my bankrole but only very gradually. I then started playing a few £3 tournaments and the £5 Velocity at 11.10pm every night and I have found, although you win less frequesntly, when you do actually cash it is usually for a decent amount (I finished 4th on Monday and 4th last night in the Velocity with around 120 runners each time) I have basically been playing with the same strategy as I used to some success on the DYM tables and is seems to have served me well.

So what I was wondering is:

What is a good win/cash ratio on the DYM tables when you are only doubling your money and what is a good win/cash ratio in the MTT's. Also, are the tactics employed really that different?
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Comments

  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited March 2010
    dym... aim for 60%+ super consistently and you should grind out a steady but slow profit.
  • cobbler78cobbler78 Member Posts: 65
    edited March 2010
    That is a really slow profit though isn't it? over 100 games I would be up by £50 on the £5 tables, that meants investing £550 and winning £600, surely a better return could be had on a consistent basis on the MTT's, id like to think out of 100 MTT's I would cash at least 30 times for more than £20 on average...or is this too optomistic?
  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited March 2010
    well 60% is the minimum really... and if you are 2 tabling+ you should be able to make like at least £1.50 an hour. It is slow profit but it can at least be a consistent profit... if you really want to make money and are good enough play cash games... mtts are too inconsistent but can yield massive wins.
  • webby234webby234 Member Posts: 1,781
    edited March 2010
    you would not cash 30 times out of 100 imo
  • ACESOVER8sACESOVER8s Member Posts: 1,307
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play:
    That is a really slow profit though isn't it? over 100 games I would be up by £50 on the £5 tables, that meants investing £550 and winning £600, surely a better return could be had on a consistent basis on the MTT's, id like to think out of 100 MTT's I would cash at least 30 times for more than £20 on average...or is this too optomistic?
    Posted by cobbler78
    I've seen estimates banded about that even the best in the world cash in approx 16 - 17% of MTT's they enter. Difference being that a low cash in a large tourney will probably be 3 times your buy in and a win will be HUGE return. So MTT speciaists cash very infrequently but when they do they cash BIG!!!

    If your looking for a way to make moeny then the only real consistant way is to play cash. Plenty of people get good at DYM's but like you say the return on investment is poor from them, also as the variance in MTT's is so high it's difficult to get a consistent revenue from these.

    As the Great Man TIkay himself would say "It's Cash for Dough & Tournaments For Show"
  • hurst05hurst05 Member Posts: 1,567
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play:
    you would not cash 30 times out of 100 imo
    Posted by webby234
    i think you could, i cash in the majority of deep stack i play in, i think its very possible, even playing the the main events, if your good enough you will cash alot more than 30 out of 100, just what i think
  • hurst05hurst05 Member Posts: 1,567
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play:
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play : I've seen estimates banded about that even the best in the world cash in approx 16 - 17% of MTT's they enter. Difference being that a low cash in a large tourney will probably be 3 times your buy in and a win will be HUGE return. So MTT speciaists cash very infrequently but when they do they cash BIG!!! If your looking for a way to make moeny then the only real consistant way is to play cash. Plenty of people get good at DYM's but like you say the return on investment is poor from them, also as the variance in MTT's is so high it's difficult to get a consistent revenue from these. As the Great Man TIkay himself would say "It's Cash for Dough & Tournaments For Show"
    Posted by ACESOVER8s
    the best in the world are playing at bigger sites where the fields that they play in will consistent of thousands of entrants etc, at sky the most you will get is 700 which is what u get for the 12k BH i believe, unless its a tourny such as a freeroll or TKO etc
  • ACESOVER8sACESOVER8s Member Posts: 1,307
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play:
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play : the best in the world are playing at bigger sites where the fields that they play in will consistent of thousands of entrants etc, at sky the most you will get is 700 which is what u get for the 12k BH i believe, unless its a tourny such as a freeroll or TKO etc
    Posted by hurst05
    True they do play thousands of entrants but as such they pay out further down the field. A 30 man MTT would prob pay top 3 but a 3000 man MTT would pay top 300 (and this is minimum you would possibly find it as 5 out of 30 and 500 out of 3000 depending on payout structure) so it's the percantage of the field that you finish in.

    When you say you cash in most deepstacks you play are you refering to ones you play on other sites? 

    You may go on really good runs where you cash in 5 or 6 but you can also go on really bad runs where you cash in 1 in 15 or 20.
  • webby234webby234 Member Posts: 1,781
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play:
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play : i think you could, i cash in the majority of deep stack i play in, i think its very possible, even playing the the main events, if your good enough you will cash alot more than 30 out of 100, just what i think
    Posted by hurst05
    cashing in 30 out of 100 would be a great achievemen in mttt
  • cobbler78cobbler78 Member Posts: 65
    edited March 2010
    Well i just cashed again 13th out of 127 in the £3.30 Speed Tourney. However, only cashed for £3.81...so a 51p profit. Seems hardly worth paying 11th - 20th for that, either add it to the top 10 or spread the money down further, I think you should at least double your money for a cash.
  • tikay1tikay1 Member Posts: 741
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play:
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play : cashing in 30 out of 100 would be a great achievemen in mttt
    Posted by webby234
    Great achievement? It'd  be a miracle! Nobody on earth could achieve that, except in the very short-term, & that'd only be due to favourable variance.
  • tikay1tikay1 Member Posts: 741
    edited March 2010

    Hi Cobbler.

    DYM's = very low return, offset by very low variance.

    MTT's high return when you win - very rarely = HUGE variance.

    It's a simple risk/reward equation. Less risk, less reward, more risk, more reward.

    You pays your money, & takes your choice.

    But if you want locked up money, week in, week out, statistically, cash-games are the solution.

    In football parlance, Tourneys are the FA Cup, Cash is the League.
  • cobbler78cobbler78 Member Posts: 65
    edited March 2010
    Really? so 30% is not very do-able? Usually the top 20%ish are paid, taking into account the fact that more that 10% of the field are going to be less than average, I would have thought 30 out of 100 was possible, but like I say im new to all this, ceratinly interested to hear what more experienced players think.

    At the moment, I started with £20 in my account, just after watching 865 and getting interested, I now have £80 and I have withdrawn about £400, including bonuses. I tend to play better/more carefully when I have £80 in my account hense the withdrawles, as before when I was getting up above £100 I was becoming a little lose and getting my balance dragged back down to £50, however, when it gets to this level and I can see I might have to put more cash in I tend to play more sensibly and can built it back up again.

    At the moment, im just playing for fun, sort of treating it at the moment as half profitable hobby and half a low paid part time  2nd job I can do from home. Very enjoyable all the same.
  • cobbler78cobbler78 Member Posts: 65
    edited March 2010
    By the way, I have tried cash occasionally and quite frankly im useless for some reason, any reason why??
  • elsadogelsadog Member Posts: 5,677
    edited March 2010
    Top internet mtt players have a cash rate of approx. 14% - 16%

    They could probably improve on that if they played to cash but they don't they play to win.
  • cobbler78cobbler78 Member Posts: 65
    edited March 2010
    Maybe thats it, im sort of playing to cash then building and laddering from there. Once you make the cash, your only a couple of double ups from being a contender. So why not try to make the cash, keep your money safe then go for the win from there. Seems to beat going all out for the win before you have burst the bubble and ending up with nothing.
  • tikay1tikay1 Member Posts: 741
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play:
    Really? so 30% is not very do-able? Usually the top 20%ish are paid, taking into account the fact that more that 10% of the field are going to be less than average, I would have thought 30 out of 100 was possible, but like I say im new to all this, ceratinly interested to hear what more experienced players think. At the moment, I started with £20 in my account, just after watching 865 and getting interested, I now have £80 and I have withdrawn about £400, including bonuses. I tend to play better/more carefully when I have £80 in my account hense the withdrawles, as before when I was getting up above £100 I was becoming a little lose and getting my balance dragged back down to £50, however, when it gets to this level and I can see I might have to put more cash in I tend to play more sensibly and can built it back up again. At the moment, im just playing for fun, sort of treating it at the moment as half profitable hobby and half a low paid part time  2nd job I can do from home. Very enjoyable all the same.
    Posted by cobbler78
    Hi again Cobbler.

    No - 30% is NOT do-able, except as I described earlier. NOBODY can or will acheve that, nobody ever has or ever will, end of.

    And, though it varies, it's morre like 10% of the field get paid in a standard, high-runner MTT. (Exclude very small fields).


    I'm not trying to pour cold water on your optimism, or aspirations, but these are facts, not opinions, & it's best you know where you are, imo.


    Good questions, & well done on your results to date.
  • elsadogelsadog Member Posts: 5,677
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: DYM and MTT Tournament Play:
    Maybe thats it, im sort of playing to cash then building and laddering from there. Once you make the cash, your only a couple of double ups from being a contender. So why not try to make the cash, keep your money safe then go for the win from there. Seems to beat going all out for the win before you have burst the bubble and ending up with nothing.
    Posted by cobbler78
    Sounds good to me ........ let me know how you get on.
  • cobbler78cobbler78 Member Posts: 65
    edited March 2010
    Excellent, thanks both fo your input. It all seemed too easy, but sounds like ive been a bit lucky to date. Will see how it gos, keep up the good work on the TV, good mix of humour, poker chat and advice. Great stuff.
  • cobbler78cobbler78 Member Posts: 65
    edited March 2010
    Just an update, just made my 3rd final table of the week in the 23.10 Velocity, thats 4th, 4th and 6th, so 3 times out of 5, ie 60%. I know its only short term and bow to the greater knowledge of those who have been playing longer, but my tactic of going for the cash, then the double up seems to be working rather that going for the win from the start. Its the DYM mentality but put into practice in tournament play.
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