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'Loopy' Liz Truss 'suggested increasing pension age to 80'

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    Essexphil said:

    You do not look at taxation in the same way as the Government. Or HMRC.

    The tax system usually does not differentiate between differing types of income. It tends to look at total income, and taxes accordingly. So:-

    0-12,570-0%
    12,571-50,270-20%
    50,271+-40%
    Etc

    Now-as you rightly say-those thresholds could go up in line with inflation. But, if they did, then the income from tax drops. So-returning to my unanswered question-

    Who do you think should pay more so you can pay less?
    I am merely drawing attention to one aspect of income tax.
    The triple lock is in place to protect pensioners from inflation.
    This worked when the state pension was considerably below the personal allowance.
    As it moves closer to, and exceeds the personal allowance it is less effective.
    It will also decrease the value of any additional income.

    It just seems silly to put a plan like the triple lock in place, when freezing the personal allowance threshold clearly undermines it.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    I will make another point which is completely different from the last one.
    The Tories are threatening to reduce income tax by 1% in the budget.
    Lets take someone on 30k per year.
    Lets say they have just had a 5% increase.
    The 1% reduction would mean they would be better off by £174.
    Yet the 19% of their £1,500 increase is £285.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    Essexphil said:

    But what you are saying us that you should be exempt from paying tax on your increased income.

    Just like the young don't feel they should be paying £9k + a year for an education. While living with their parents for an extra 10 years before they can afford to buy a house. Or workers shouldn't pay an ever-increasing amount of tax, routinely including both income tax and NI on any increase. Or the wealthy elderly think that £1 million is far too small an IHT exemption.

    I get that you don't want to pay any income tax. Same is true for all of us. Who do you think should pay more so you can pay less?
    TUC boss and retail chief call for action on wealthy tax dodgers



    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/tuc-boss-retail-chief-call-060018526.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    HAYSIE said:

    TUC boss and retail chief call for action on wealthy tax dodgers



    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/tuc-boss-retail-chief-call-060018526.html
    Tory MPs beg Jeremy Hunt to abandon tax cuts that will only help the rich


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/tory-mps-beg-jeremy-hunt-to-abandon-tax-cuts-that-will-only-help-the-rich/ar-BB1iSoB2?ocid=msedgntp&pc=NMTS&cvid=2b9f5e2c18ac4a28bbfd419c337d0a85&ei=83
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    edited February 2024
    Millions of pensioners stung by income tax as ‘perverse’ state pension situation looms



    Jon Greer, head of retirement policy at Quilter, warned: “There will no doubt be a considerable number of pensioners who have additional retirement income dragged into paying tax.

    “What’s more, the reality is that we are soon set to be in the perverse situation where pensioners might have to start paying back their state pension to HMRC because of frozen allowances.”


    He added: “Given that state pensions will shortly eradicate someone’s personal allowance, any private pension provision other than the tax-free cash lump sum will therefore become taxable at their highest marginal rate.

    “For many that could mean big tax bills depending on how much they draw down.

    “Pensioners are often worst hit by frozen tax allowances because they typically will be getting their income from a number of different investments and therefore lean heavily on CGT and dividend allowances to help create a retirement income in addition to their pension.




    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/millions-of-pensioners-stung-by-income-tax-as-perverse-state-pension-situation-looms/ar-BB1j6YXu?ocid=msedgntp&pc=NMTS&cvid=42f0ae4f616b4d37b60e703ff0048ce5&ei=85
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 9,214
    Today's pensioners.

    Miles better off than the generation above them.
    Miles better off than the generation below them.

    Paid in less. Received more. Never paid their fair share. Before retirement or after retirement.

    Yet still moan.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    Essexphil said:

    Today's pensioners.

    Miles better off than the generation above them.
    Miles better off than the generation below them.

    Paid in less. Received more. Never paid their fair share. Before retirement or after retirement.

    Yet still moan.

    I am not sure how much of that is correct.
    The only comparison I have is my Father.
    He lived comfortably his whole life.
    He had a really good pension, and retired in his mid fifties.
    I havent a clue how much his state pension was, but he would have been comfortable without it.
    Although he wouldnt have ever paid tax on it.
    He bought his first house when I was two.
    He paid £2,250 for it, and his mortgage ended up at £20 per month.
    I have paid substantially more income tax, and NI contributions, over my lifetime than he ever did.

    I am fairly happy with both my own pension arrangements, and the state pension.
    I wish I was aware that I could have topped up my wifes NI stamps earlier, but I am not blaming anyone else for that.

    I was merely making the point earlier that I donrt see the point in money being given out with one hand and taken back with the other.
    That is exactly what freezing personal allowances does.

    I assume that when you refer to "todays pensioners" you are referring to those in their sixties, rather than those in their eighties, and nineties?
    The article below disputes your assumptions.

    Millennials set to become ‘richest generation in history’ – but only when their parents die


    https://uk.style.yahoo.com/millennials-set-become-richest-generation-172923394.html#:~:text=Millennials will become the richest generation in history,their parents have died, according to a study.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    Baby boomers are often said to be the luckiest generation financially — but millennials will be better off than their parents in retirement, survey finds


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/baby-boomers-often-said-luckiest-203628347.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    Essexphil said:

    Today's pensioners.

    Miles better off than the generation above them.
    Miles better off than the generation below them.

    Paid in less. Received more. Never paid their fair share. Before retirement or after retirement.

    Yet still moan.

    So double the number of over 65s are now paying income tax, compared to when the Tories came into power.
    This has been caused by the continuing freeze on personal allowances.
    A proposed further cut to NI will be of no benefit to pensioners.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    HAYSIE said:

    So double the number of over 65s are now paying income tax, compared to when the Tories came into power.
    This has been caused by the continuing freeze on personal allowances.
    A proposed further cut to NI will be of no benefit to pensioners.
    Incidentally, this is apparently a fact, rather than a moan.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,924
    Essexphil said:

    Today's pensioners.

    Miles better off than the generation above them.
    Miles better off than the generation below them.

    Paid in less. Received more. Never paid their fair share. Before retirement or after retirement.

    Yet still moan.

    This got me thinking about my own family.
    The only bit that is true is "received more".
    I suppose that as the state pension will rise over time, then each generation will receive more than the previous one.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 9,214
    edited March 2024
    There are always 2 sides to these coins.

    "Double the amount of pensioners paying tax"? Twice as many pensioners receiving sufficient income to pay.

    "Millenials will be better off in retirement". Only if the generation above them is successful in passing on its vast, unprecedented, collective wealth. Main problem being the 100% tax rate applied to people in Care Homes

    "Cut in NI will not help pensioners". Only because retired pensioners, unlike everyone else, don't pay NI to start with. Do you want to pay less than 0%?

    Your thread title sums it up. Why is it "perverse" that part of a pensioner's income is treated the same for tax purposes as people who are working? That, for example, people who no longer have a Mortgage or Dependant kids gets to keep more of their money than a 30-year-old with 2 kids and a Mortgage? On Income Tax on top of NI? With a £1 million IHT tax break?

    Finally, the "grey vote". It always comes back to the grey vote. Which always seems to revolve solely around what is best for Pensioners.

    Look at the state this country is in. I'm not a great fan of the USA, but 1 thing I have always liked is the "American Dream". The part that says we should be better off than our Parents were, and that our Kids should be better off than we are.

    I look at the World my kids are in, and I see a World that is considerably less attractive. Unable to buy houses for, on average, an extra Decade. Less attractive Pensions. Far less secure jobs. Waiting for their Parents to die, and preferably not contracting life limiting conditions that necessitate Care Homes, so they can have wealth.

    I'm 61. Do I care that, say, a 71 year old gets more tax breaks than me? No.

    I do care that today's pensioners are being subsidised by today's workers. Who are, on average, considerably less well off than you or me.

  • goldongoldon Member Posts: 9,310
    Spread the Wealth naturally ...........

    The Bank of Mum & Dad becomes the bank of Nan & Grandad....... cough!
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