Why? because this is a game of skill where i would like to play some flops and turns, i dont want to CALL ALL IN early with only ace high, with another player still in the pot too. If we call here, we might as well play bingo, roulette, or another non skill game. sorry, but i want to play some poker. Im only calling with AA or KK in this spot.
Rule number one - If you're like me and do not look at your cards until you have to act, if there's a misdeal or you get a walk in the BB, DON'T look at your hand - it doesn't matter and can only hurt you.
I think there are more dynamics to look at. Did the dope of the piece mate it clear he was shoving blind before you or the fellow behind you were about to act? How was the guy with the Queens holding himself? While I can agree with the fold, the way the queens have been played is a little perplexing. My regular live haunt has people calling standard raises with all manner of trash (normally suited of course) in the early going. Those Queens could easily have been KJ, KT, A8 etc. Also if you snap shoved would he have mucked the queens? It's very possible but of course depends on any read or history you have with this player. Was there any or was he a blank canvas to you?
TK, what % of hands do you think the flat caller doesn't reraise with but is willing to call off 180bb's behind 2 all-ins. In this spot we're crushing both opponent's ranges and the vast majority of the time the player acting after us will be insta folding.
Even if we get called we still have good equity against anything other than AA/KK. I think if you are going for the win outright rather than just to cash its a very easy call tbh. Also getting an early double up is a massive advantage imo (though it depends on your playing style I guess).
Beaneh. you need to read my reply properly, please. This is Live Poker, played by a recreational player, for fun. It changes the paramaters completely. I know you are a hard-nosed Pro, & very good at what you do, but most players are not, & we need to address their particular stance when replying. Blackfish. One of THE most important skills in Live Poker is paying attention to what is happening around us, it is a HUGE asset to a "Live Poker" player, more so - MUCH more so, than in Online Poker. In fact, it applies to observation generally, because you clearly missed what the OP said.....(my enboldenment). The hand is redealt and i get AK of clubs and make a 3x raise, the player to my left calls , and the player two to my left shoves his whole stack into the middle without looking at his cards, it's folded round to me. What hand do you put the flat-caller on? Do you know, or think, they may also call? If they do, what range of hands can you put them on? Do we really need to take a flip (against the flat-caller) at this stage? In my case, the answer is "NO". Because I expect to cash in this Tourney, (because it is Live, where the standard of play is "mixed" at best) and to do so, I do NOT need to take a flip this early. The benefit of an early double-up in such a comp is also dubious. IMO, of course. Posted by Tikay10
The flat caller could have absolutely anything. Surely you can't be that worried about the flat caller that you pass a chance to double up early on going in as a 67% favourite?
Beaneh. you need to read my reply properly, please. This is Live Poker, played by a recreational player, for fun. It changes the paramaters completely. I know you are a hard-nosed Pro, & very good at what you do, but most players are not, & we need to address their particular stance when replying. Blackfish. One of THE most important skills in Live Poker is paying attention to what is happening around us, it is a HUGE asset to a "Live Poker" player, more so - MUCH more so, than in Online Poker. In fact, it applies to observation generally, because you clearly missed what the OP said.....(my enboldenment). The hand is redealt and i get AK of clubs and make a 3x raise, the player to my left calls , and the player two to my left shoves his whole stack into the middle without looking at his cards, it's folded round to me. What hand do you put the flat-caller on? Do you know, or think, they may also call? If they do, what range of hands can you put them on? Do we really need to take a flip (against the flat-caller) at this stage? In my case, the answer is "NO". Because I expect to cash in this Tourney, (because it is Live, where the standard of play is "mixed" at best) and to do so, I do NOT need to take a flip this early. The benefit of an early double-up in such a comp is also dubious. IMO, of course. Posted by Tikay10
I understand what you said, but given that it is a re-deal with a tilty shover it's a go go go scenario.
The flat caller really wouldn't scare me, considering that his initial flat-calling range knowing nothing of the intention of the guy behind (unless he's giving off some massive stack of chips in hand/acting out of turn tell), is super wide and once the action goes open-reship and we call what range of hands is he calling with there?? IF we had shoved do you think the guy who flat called is calling all in with QQ?
If this was a bigger buyin comp and or I thought we had some major skill advantage over the entire field then go for it as is without the misdeal previously I would sigh fold with it i'm grinning.
The point Tikay is making (correct me if I'm wrong) is simply that as recreational player, we want to get as much value from our £30 buy in as possible - we want to enjoy the live experience, the banter etc for as long as possible so if that means folding few hands early, that suits us! When we pay £5 for cinema ticket, we don't want to then have someone tell us what happens in the film because we want two hours entertainment and experience it for ourselves...likewise when I pay £40 for Spurs ticket, I don't want someone to tell me the result after one minute because I want to watch the match, get the full 90 minutes experience and value for my money!
Ok folding AK here isn't the optimal poker play and it's snap call for those who are in the tournament to win/earn some decent money etc (as I would be looking to do) but for some, who are there just for nights entertainment (instead of spending £30 on drinking session) there's no real problem with folding! I've sat at table with someone before who let themselves get down to 2BB's before shoving because his mates were still in the tournament so rather than sitting on his own waiting for them to finish or hitting the blackjack tables as he would inevitably do, he decided to wait it out - eventually shoved with JJ and doubled up so then could spend a little longer in the tournament!
To the "proper" players around the table, this was met with some under the breath comments like "you should've shoved earlier because you're still short stacked after doubling up" which is of course sensible tournament strategy but in this instance, holding out suited this players needs so who are we to argue?
Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : I understand what you said, but given that it is a re-deal with a tilty shover it's a go go go scenario. The flat caller really wouldn't scare me, considering that his initial flat-calling range knowing nothing of the intention of the guy behind (unless he's giving off some massive stack of chips in hand/acting out of turn tell), is super wide and once the action goes open-reship and we call what range of hands is he calling with there?? IF we had shoved do you think the guy who flat called is calling all in with QQ? If this was a bigger buyin comp and or I thought we had some major skill advantage over the entire field then go for it as is without the misdeal previously I would sigh fold with it i'm grinning. Posted by beaneh
He called one shove so why wouldn't he call a second shove with even better odds on his money? With the speed he called i believe he would have.
Rule number one - If you're like me and do not look at your cards until you have to act, if there's a misdeal or you get a walk in the BB, DON'T look at your hand - it doesn't matter and can only hurt you. I think there are more dynamics to look at. Did the dope of the piece mate it clear he was shoving blind before you or the fellow behind you were about to act? How was the guy with the Queens holding himself? While I can agree with the fold, the way the queens have been played is a little perplexing. My regular live haunt has people calling standard raises with all manner of trash (normally suited of course) in the early going. Those Queens could easily have been KJ, KT, A8 etc. Also if you snap shoved would he have mucked the queens? It's very possible but of course depends on any read or history you have with this player. Was there any or was he a blank canvas to you? Posted by TommyD
It was only the first level and he hadn't played a hand yet, personally i don't want to get involved with AK with another player still to act, i believe the skill level at my table was below average and by risking all my chips on this hand i'm nullifying the skill advantage that i believe i had over most of the table.
In reference to optimal strategy, isn't it optimal to play more boards against worse players than it is to get it all in pre flop? That's my opinion anyway.
Beaneh. you need to read my reply properly, please. This is Live Poker, played by a recreational player, for fun. It changes the paramaters completely. I know you are a hard-nosed Pro, & very good at what you do, but most players are not, & we need to address their particular stance when replying. Blackfish. One of THE most important skills in Live Poker is paying attention to what is happening around us, it is a HUGE asset to a "Live Poker" player, more so - MUCH more so, than in Online Poker. In fact, it applies to observation generally, because you clearly missed what the OP said.....(my enboldenment). The hand is redealt and i get AK of clubs and make a 3x raise, the player to my left calls , and the player two to my left shoves his whole stack into the middle without looking at his cards, it's folded round to me. What hand do you put the flat-caller on? Do you know, or think, they may also call? If they do, what range of hands can you put them on? Do we really need to take a flip (against the flat-caller) at this stage? In my case, the answer is "NO". Because I expect to cash in this Tourney, (because it is Live, where the standard of play is "mixed" at best) and to do so, I do NOT need to take a flip this early. The benefit of an early double-up in such a comp is also dubious. IMO, of course. Posted by Tikay10
I don't know, i just had a look at sharkscope! Yeesh!!
In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : It was only the first level and he hadn't played a hand yet, personally i don't want to get involved with AK with another player still to act, i believe the skill level at my table was below average and by risking all my chips on this hand i'm nullifying the skill advantage that i believe i had over most of the table. In reference to optimal strategy, isn't it optimal to play more boards against worse players than it is to get it all in pre flop? That's my opinion anyway. Posted by kirstii
I agree with the point you raised under optimal strategy and as I stated in my OP I can agree with the fold. From your reply I'm surmising that you haven't played against the fellow with Queens before (in other games apart from this tourney) and that was what I was referencing when I said 'blank canvas.'
Some key points I'd just like to clear up:
Was the tilt monkey making it obvious he was going to push all in blind before the Queens flatted your raise?
How was the fellow with the Queens acting? Did he quickly call your initial raise, did he look at his cards for the first time after your raise and if so what was his reaction? Was he acting strong or weak? When Mr Tilty shoved did he get excited? How was he acting when you were in the tank?
I can totally agree with the fold with an unknown quantity in the pot at this early stage and would of probably taken a similar line as you to try to avoid early flips to try and gain advantage of the edge I had over a longer period.
What would people here do in the exact same situation in the first level of the World Series of Poker main event? Posted by BrownnDog
I would fold because i'd gone all the way to america and it's a 10k buyin. 30quid down the casino with a bunch of numpties who don't understand mis-deals, snap fist pump shove.
What would people here do in the exact same situation in the first level of the World Series of Poker main event? Posted by BrownnDog
Take away the money factor and I'm snap calling as its the right call. I'd like to think I could call if it was the EXACT situation. But $10k means more to me than it does to you so I'd cry, then use up so much time thinking about it, the clock would get called on me by some impatient woman, cry again. Then time out. Then donk off my stack in the next hour thinking "Why didn't I call?!?"
Comments
Why? because this is a game of skill where i would like to play some flops and turns, i dont want to CALL ALL IN early with only ace high, with another player still in the pot too. If we call here, we might as well play bingo, roulette, or another non skill game. sorry, but i want to play some poker. Im only calling with AA or KK in this spot.
Even if we get called we still have good equity against anything other than AA/KK. I think if you are going for the win outright rather than just to cash its a very easy call tbh. Also getting an early double up is a massive advantage imo (though it depends on your playing style I guess).
In reference to optimal strategy, isn't it optimal to play more boards against worse players than it is to get it all in pre flop? That's my opinion anyway.