I did warn you I might ramble n a bit, but it's such a fascinating subject, & it consumes me trying to examine it.
So, the last component in self-examination of my results.
Age, & mental dexterity.
I 6 Table, & in fact, PLO8 DYM's are quite complex if you really analyse how many different decisions, at different stages of each hand, & each DYM, we have to make. Of course, the only REALLY big decisions (general DYM strategy apart) are 4 handed. This is where it really matters. 4 handed, this is the part I love best of all, this is the fun part. I could happily sit out the first 3 or 4 Levels, they mean nothing to me. I may be wrong on that, but you'd struggle to convince me. I have an edge - or did have - so I don't need to gamble early doors with Mr Any A-2. Help yourselves fellas, I'm here to finish Top 3, not gamble early.
But do I still have the mental dexterity to 6 Table this game?
It's really hard to know. I'm at the age where our mental faculties DO decline, & I'm acutely aware of that. I test myself all the time on this, not just poker, everything. And I think I'm still OK, but we don't really know, do we?
Does someone at the onset of, say, dementia, or Alzheimers, actually KNOW that? Are they AWARE of their mental decline? None of us know the answer to that, but it has to be a consideration.
Hope that does not come across as morbid, it's not intended to be, & I'm very pragmatic about age, mortality, mental faculties & all that stuff. It comes to us all eventually, if we are lucky enough to live to a decent age. Well I've been lucky, & I've reached that age, so I need to be on full alert, all the time. And I am.
Looking back over those 2.5 years, the same pattern repeats itself. A sustained uptick, over several months, followed by a downswing. Same play, different results. But on balance, the upticks are bigger than the downswings. We have to be VERY careful here though, not to confuse adverse variance with sub-optimal play. Everyone blames variance when they arelosing, & good play when they are winning. It's not always true though, is it? It's just so easy to take the lazy route & blame variance. So, my current balance is just £40 above where it was on January 1st. Why is that? More follows....... Posted by Tikay10
i think this is very true.
Of course there will be times when we run bad but it's often used as a quick get out.
I read people saying that they have had meh variance for 6 months or so and I'm struggling with that.
Dyms are low variance. If we're still blaming runbad after 6 months then I think that we're just deluding ourselves.
"I could happily sit out the first 3 or 4 Levels, they mean nothing to me. I may be wrong on that, but you'd struggle to convince me
I'll have a go
For me the first few levels are hugely important and where many people make a lot of mistakes. These are the levels where we pick up easy chips as people don't want to get involved. By doing this we create a buffer so that we can withstand losing a flip here and there. This for me is the skill part of the game. In most dyms by the time the bubble comes around, the blinds are high. Our edge goes to a large degree when it just comes down to shoving and closing our eyes and hoping that no one has a hand.
By getting a stack early on, we're now under less pressure and even when we do have to take a player on, we're still in the game should we lose the hand.
I do wonder about this from time to time, but should the first 4 levels mean more? Are these missed opportunities? Yes you want to make the last 4 but its tricky if your short almost everytime. If I knew the answers it would be fab . I have noticed that when you do play hands early and Im assuming you hit you bet very aggressive, is it maximising the value you can win or scaring them away? I know it is quite complex because if you slow play it could come back to bite you.
Interested to see Jac and Timyraras views on the early levels? or is it different for holdem.
Away from poker? Some of this MAY have impacted my poker results actually. See, I'm a proper poker player, always looking for excuses.....
UKPC was easily the most stressful I've ever had, but I did a good job, or I think I did. It was very tough indeed, I did 6 x 18 hour days in a row, & the last day, the Monday, was a 24 hour day from when I started until when I got to bed. I had to write a daily article on top of everything else, but I coped OK with that. Some underlying tensions - don't ask - were what made it so stressful though. The event was a success though, & that's my satisfaction.
I missed my daily afternoon nap for 6 days, too. My daily routine is to get up at 5 or 5.30, do my work until around 1pm, grab an hour or two in bed, another quick clear up of e-Mails, PM's & Forum stuff, then start my evening poker session. Even when I'm in Vegas for Sky Poker in previous years, I am up from 5am until 1am, but I have to have an hours kip in the afternoon. That was not possible during UKPC. My official working week is 5 x 7.5 hours, but poker is not like that, is it?, it's a 7 day thing, & especially evenings. It's very odd - to me - that some people think Online Poker can be managed 9-5, Mon-Fri.
Last week was Cheltenham Week, & I penned 2 articles per day, on top of my usual workload, so that was quite challenging. I wanted to watch all of Chelters on the TV, but come Friday, I was all out of gas, & had to go to bed after the Gold Cup & so I missed the Foxhunters. The stone in my shoe continued to pinch, so that never helped.
I'm hard dieting, too, & have shed close to 2 stone since January 16th. No lattes at the moment - boo - & no sticky buns or bread. Marv.
I'm exercising, too, for the first time in y entire life. I walk 2 miles every single weekday, & 4 miles every Saturday & Sunday. Of course, I had to abandon that during UKPC, but that apart, not missed a day since Jan 16th.
This week I have to go up to Head Office. I always feel a little awkward when I go up, there. All of the Sky Poker staff except the TV Team & myself are based there, so we are very much outsiders, & not all of them realise that & they make no allowances for it. We feel like strangers attending a party, or intruders into a clique, so it's all a bit uncomfortable. Most are very good & understand it though.
I suppose it does not help that I'm passionate about Sky Poker doing things properly, & I'm not shy in telling my colleagues what I think about our failings. I'm not exactly Billy No Mates up there, but some sensitive feathers do tend to get ruffled....
I haven't witnessed much wrong with your strategy on the few occasions I have ventured into the higher stakes DYMS.
I would guess that it may just be a downswing, which we all know we will have at some point.
Your mental faculties are a lot better than mine, I would have a meltdown multitabling 6 PL08 tables. Playing one PL08 table takes a lot of mental processing on my part. You are not the oldest player I know, there is a player called Ginn, who plays micro stakes, who is a couple of years older than you, he's 79ish, he still plays a mean game. I just hope I am still going at that age, and if I'm still playing as well as Ginn and your good self, I'll be more than delighted.
As for the players playing the £1.10 tournaments like they are freerolls, what are they thinking, don't they know that's a bob more than a guinea?
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : i think this is very true. Of course there will be times when we run bad but it's often used as a quick get out. I read people saying that they have had meh variance for 6 months or so and I'm struggling with that. Dyms are low variance. If we're still blaming runbad after 6 months then I think that we're just deluding ourselves. Posted by Jac35
"I could happily sit out the first 3 or 4 Levels, they mean nothing to me. I may be wrong on that, but you'd struggle to convince me I'll have a go For me the first few levels are hugely important and where many people make a lot of mistakes. These are the levels where we pick up easy chips as people don't want to get involved. By doing this we create a buffer so that we can withstand losing a flip here and there. This for me is the skill part of the game. In most dyms by the time the bubble comes around, the blinds are high. Our edge goes to a large degree when it just comes down to shoving and closing our eyes and hoping that no one has a hand. Posted by Jac35
In NLH, yes, but PLO8 is completely different in that regard, as we have a much wider range of playable hands & we are paying for 2 pots.
So in PLO8, no, people are NOT scared to call early doors.
I could name 6 or 8 players who, literally, limp into EVERY hand, & call ANY Raise. They all lose money of course, every one of them, but it's tough to put them on a hand or even a range, so by going to war with these boys early we increase variance.
One fella 4 bet me yesterday with K-Q-2-2 in PLO8. Imagine THAT, lol. In Level 1, what do we put him on? In Level 6, it's easy, we have made our move & we ain't going away due to FE. In Level 1, we just have no idea where we are.
I do wonder about this from time to time, but should the first 4 levels mean more? Are these missed opportunities? Yes you want to make the last 4 but its tricky if your short almost everytime. If I knew the answers it would be fab . I have noticed that when you do play hands early and Im assuming you hit you bet very aggressive, is it maximising the value you can win or scaring them away? I know it is quite complex because if you slow play it could come back to bite you. Interested to see Jac and Timyraras views on the early levels? or is it different for holdem. Ger Posted by gerardirl
It's just opinions Ger, I've played that way when I was making good returns, & I can't see any good reason to do different now.
I respect - immensely - the views of Jac & Timmy, but as I replied earlier to Paul, NLH plays VERY different to PLO8, imo, due to the wider range of playable hands.
Hi Tikay, I haven't witnessed much wrong with your strategy on the few occasions I have ventured into the higher stakes DYMS. I would guess that it may just be a downswing, which we all know we will have at some point. Your mental faculties are a lot better than mine, I would have a meltdown multitabling 6 PL08 tables. Playing one PL08 table takes a lot of mental processing on my part. You are not the oldest player I know, there is a player called Ginn, who plays micro stakes, who is a couple of years older than you, he's 79ish, he still plays a mean game. I just hope I am still going at that age, and if I'm still playing as well as Ginn and your good self, I'll be more than delighted. As for the players playing the £1.10 tournaments like they are freerolls, what are they thinking, don't they know that's a bob more than a guinea? Craig P.S. You could always take up rambling Posted by 67Bhoys
Looks like I already did, judging by this mornings replies. I'll never be as good at that as Grumpy Paul though, he's the Champ.
"One regular on the Tables - decent chap - simply HATES having his Blinds attacked, so will play back with ANY FOUR. All day mate, yes please, because my Range is ALWAYS ahead of his"
In an icm heavy format like dyms the only players who benefit from you and Mr anti-steal butting heads are the other players.
You don't auto profit from players being too loose against you. You will profit when they call too loose v other players. I've seen a lot of people correcting comments such as "low stakes dyms are hard as players call you with anythng" by saying that you will profit from their loose calls long term.
It's not exactly true. You don't want to be in 60/40 spots for stacks in a dym; you do want other players to be in lots of 60/40's
If someone really is playing back wide, in a format that is icm-laden and in a variant of poker where ranges match up fairly closely it might be best to allow others to get into those big pots with a fair range advantage and auto profit from his looser that way.
And that's why I avoid banging heads early with these guys.
Level 7, 4 handed, it has to be done once we make the first move, of course. And I'm happy with that, as my ranges are good, & unless I'm short of chips, my ranges are usually well balanced.
with regard to the playing enviroment there are a tremendous amount of free resources for people to learn from now. articles/videos/twitch/forums. its not hard to become proficient in a format if you enjoy learning. standing still is moving backwards in relative terms.
one downside of not having access to your own HH database is that you cannot easily see how well you have been running, or do some clever things like seeing what situations / blind levels you do well or poorly at. you just have to make a fair and accurate assesment of your edge v the field.
I just had a PM from a well meaning friend suggesting why I may be on a losing run.
I'm not on a losing run, but I'm just not making the profits I was previously. BIG difference.
Maybe I explained it badly, but I try to everything to the best of my ability, & perhaps I'm not doing that at the moment, hence the self examination & self-doubt. I'm not losing though. Yet......
with regard to the playing enviroment there are a tremendous amount of free resources for people to learn from now. articles/videos/twitch/forums. its not hard to become proficient in a format if you enjoy learning. standing still is moving backwards in relative terms. one downside of not having access to your own HH database is that you cannot easily see how well you have been running, or do some clever things like seeing what situations / blind levels you do well or poorly at. you just have to make a fair and accurate assesment of your edge v the field. Posted by TeddyBloat
That's fair comment Teddy, but we don't, so we can't, & its the same for everyone else here, so thats OK.
I'm a very harsh self-critic, & I think I know when I'm making mistakes & where I do best or worst. But we all do, don't we?
just to be clear, I wasn't calling you a loser, just commenting on the nature of PL08 SNGs.
mechanisms by which we win is something I've thought about for a while.
If every SNG was decided by a dual 4BB AI and you always had 60% vs 40%, you'd have an ROI of 10%. if its 55% vs 45% you'd be breakeven. lots of the PL08 SNG end game between good and ok players are decided by 55% vs 45% and often because you have to push to stay alive, players call and they 're ahead!
IMO ICM goes out the window at 4 handed 4BB play in PL08. You'd always call with AA2, but are only 65% ish AIPF. 65% of 33% (33% is the maximum % equity in DON SNG) is 21%. all things being equal, you had 25% if you folded.
I think you should chip up during the early levels, why wouldn't you? At least in the short term you can use your image, in that knowone will/would play back as a bluff. One has to enter pots with perceived weaker players to win their chips, waiting to the end game is weaker strategy against better players, because at the end, the edges are probably less than 10%, ie the rake (which I'm not obsessed with btw).
Thanks for mentioning the tournament thing to the bosses, the UKOPS got ca 100 players, maybe more people will play if there are reg higher tournaments, time will tell.
lastly, I disagree about the 1.1 tournaments being a lottery. its a strategy adjustment compared to the 5.5 game. The player pool has the weakest players, therefore your value hands get paid. You can wait till 4BB, get top 5% hand, get paid, even though you always have it, come back and still place! in that respect, you can also recover from mistakes. the 5.5 game is much harder, fewer players making huge errors and it always feels like after 10 mins you have 10BB!
just to be clear, I wasn't calling you a loser, just commenting on the nature of PL08 SNGs. mechanisms by which we win is something I've thought about for a while. If every SNG was decided by a dual 4BB AI and you always had 60% vs 40%, you'd have an ROI of 10%. if its 55% vs 45% you'd be breakeven. lots of the PL08 SNG end game between good and ok players are decided by 55% vs 45% and often because you have to push to stay alive, players call and they 're ahead! IMO ICM goes out the window at 4 handed 4BB play in PL08. You'd always call with AA2, but are only 65% ish AIPF. 65% of 33% (33% is the maximum % equity in DON SNG) is 21%. all things being equal, you had 25% if you folded. I think you should chip up during the early levels, why wouldn't you? At least in the short term you can use your image, in that knowone will/would play back as a bluff. One has to enter pots with perceived weaker players to win their chips, waiting to the end game is weaker strategy against better players, because at the end, the edges are probably less than 10%, ie the rake (which I'm not obsessed with btw). Thanks for mentioning the tournament thing to the bosses, the UKOPS got ca 100 players, maybe more people will play if there are reg higher tournaments, time will tell. lastly, I disagree about the 1.1 tournaments being a lottery. its a strategy adjustment compared to the 5.5 game. The player pool has the weakest players, therefore your value hands get paid. You can wait till 4BB, get top 5% hand, get paid, even though you always have it, come back and still place! in that respect, you can also recover from mistakes. the 5.5 game is much harder, fewer players making huge errors and it always feels like after 10 mins you have 10BB! Posted by suzy666
No no, I was not suggesting you were saying any such thing Suzy, not at all. Someone else wrote to me & suggested that.
Strategy adjustment in the £1.1 games? Yes, that's completely fair comment. Thing is, I can play 1 £5.50 or £11 game in 35 minutes, & one £1.1 MTT in 2 hours or more. If I could play TEN £1.1 MTT's an hour, yes, I'd be there like a shot. Unforch, I don't have the mental agility to play DYM's alongside MTT's, as e have to think SO differently.
Anyway, you've awakened my sleeping Diary, which I'm grateful for. I used to report my numbers every day, but who wants to read that day after day? So a chance to natter more generally was good.
If I am running bad/not feeling it I just reduce the number of tables I am multi-tabling, even down to a single table.
I would wager that if sufficent £10 PLO8 DYM's ran, and you one-tabled them, you would be closer to the magical 60% win rate.
I don't believe age is a factor in your downswing, the standard of the format you specialise in has got much more competitive and there are less free chips available. In PLO8 you rarely get 2 poor players in a DYM, whereas in similar stakes in NLHE you can frequently.
Just like in any form of gambling, when we assess form most punters remember the most recent run/match, and this is adversley shown in prices. As you know from next-door the profeesionals are able to see past this "recentism" and accurately calculate the true price of each competitor/team. Continuing that analogy, you would always be a shade of odds-on to cash in any PlO8 DYM, and I would back you at odds-against in any given DYM, irrespective of your recent downswing.
Ultimately, if during your worst downswing, you are still making a tiny profit, and having hours of "free" entertainment an evening, the world ain't such a bad place mate.
Be lucky.
Andrew.
P.S. Any chance you could mention the Turbo PLO8 format to the bosses this week please?
Comments
I did warn you I might ramble n a bit, but it's such a fascinating subject, & it consumes me trying to examine it.
So, the last component in self-examination of my results.
Age, & mental dexterity.
I 6 Table, & in fact, PLO8 DYM's are quite complex if you really analyse how many different decisions, at different stages of each hand, & each DYM, we have to make. Of course, the only REALLY big decisions (general DYM strategy apart) are 4 handed. This is where it really matters. 4 handed, this is the part I love best of all, this is the fun part. I could happily sit out the first 3 or 4 Levels, they mean nothing to me. I may be wrong on that, but you'd struggle to convince me. I have an edge - or did have - so I don't need to gamble early doors with Mr Any A-2. Help yourselves fellas, I'm here to finish Top 3, not gamble early.
But do I still have the mental dexterity to 6 Table this game?
It's really hard to know. I'm at the age where our mental faculties DO decline, & I'm acutely aware of that. I test myself all the time on this, not just poker, everything. And I think I'm still OK, but we don't really know, do we?
Does someone at the onset of, say, dementia, or Alzheimers, actually KNOW that? Are they AWARE of their mental decline? None of us know the answer to that, but it has to be a consideration.
Hope that does not come across as morbid, it's not intended to be, & I'm very pragmatic about age, mortality, mental faculties & all that stuff. It comes to us all eventually, if we are lucky enough to live to a decent age. Well I've been lucky, & I've reached that age, so I need to be on full alert, all the time. And I am.
That'll teach you to ask me random questions.....
Away from poker? Some of this MAY have impacted my poker results actually. See, I'm a proper poker player, always looking for excuses.....
UKPC was easily the most stressful I've ever had, but I did a good job, or I think I did. It was very tough indeed, I did 6 x 18 hour days in a row, & the last day, the Monday, was a 24 hour day from when I started until when I got to bed. I had to write a daily article on top of everything else, but I coped OK with that. Some underlying tensions - don't ask - were what made it so stressful though. The event was a success though, & that's my satisfaction.
I missed my daily afternoon nap for 6 days, too. My daily routine is to get up at 5 or 5.30, do my work until around 1pm, grab an hour or two in bed, another quick clear up of e-Mails, PM's & Forum stuff, then start my evening poker session. Even when I'm in Vegas for Sky Poker in previous years, I am up from 5am until 1am, but I have to have an hours kip in the afternoon. That was not possible during UKPC. My official working week is 5 x 7.5 hours, but poker is not like that, is it?, it's a 7 day thing, & especially evenings. It's very odd - to me - that some people think Online Poker can be managed 9-5, Mon-Fri.
Last week was Cheltenham Week, & I penned 2 articles per day, on top of my usual workload, so that was quite challenging. I wanted to watch all of Chelters on the TV, but come Friday, I was all out of gas, & had to go to bed after the Gold Cup & so I missed the Foxhunters. The stone in my shoe continued to pinch, so that never helped.
I'm hard dieting, too, & have shed close to 2 stone since January 16th. No lattes at the moment - boo - & no sticky buns or bread. Marv.
I'm exercising, too, for the first time in y entire life. I walk 2 miles every single weekday, & 4 miles every Saturday & Sunday. Of course, I had to abandon that during UKPC, but that apart, not missed a day since Jan 16th.
This week I have to go up to Head Office. I always feel a little awkward when I go up, there. All of the Sky Poker staff except the TV Team & myself are based there, so we are very much outsiders, & not all of them realise that & they make no allowances for it. We feel like strangers attending a party, or intruders into a clique, so it's all a bit uncomfortable. Most are very good & understand it though.
I suppose it does not help that I'm passionate about Sky Poker doing things properly, & I'm not shy in telling my colleagues what I think about our failings. I'm not exactly Billy No Mates up there, but some sensitive feathers do tend to get ruffled....
Life is good. Mostly.
So in PLO8, no, people are NOT scared to call early doors.
I could name 6 or 8 players who, literally, limp into EVERY hand, & call ANY Raise. They all lose money of course, every one of them, but it's tough to put them on a hand or even a range, so by going to war with these boys early we increase variance.
One fella 4 bet me yesterday with K-Q-2-2 in PLO8. Imagine THAT, lol. In Level 1, what do we put him on? In Level 6, it's easy, we have made our move & we ain't going away due to FE. In Level 1, we just have no idea where we are.
I respect - immensely - the views of Jac & Timmy, but as I replied earlier to Paul, NLH plays VERY different to PLO8, imo, due to the wider range of playable hands.
In an icm heavy format like dyms the only players who benefit from you and Mr anti-steal butting heads are the other players.
You don't auto profit from players being too loose against you. You will profit when they call too loose v other players. I've seen a lot of people correcting comments such as "low stakes dyms are hard as players call you with anythng" by saying that you will profit from their loose calls long term.
It's not exactly true. You don't want to be in 60/40 spots for stacks in a dym; you do want other players to be in lots of 60/40's
If someone really is playing back wide, in a format that is icm-laden and in a variant of poker where ranges match up fairly closely it might be best to allow others to get into those big pots with a fair range advantage and auto profit from his looser that way.
Teddy is EXACTLY correct.
And that's why I avoid banging heads early with these guys.
Level 7, 4 handed, it has to be done once we make the first move, of course. And I'm happy with that, as my ranges are good, & unless I'm short of chips, my ranges are usually well balanced.
one downside of not having access to your own HH database is that you cannot easily see how well you have been running, or do some clever things like seeing what situations / blind levels you do well or poorly at. you just have to make a fair and accurate assesment of your edge v the field.
Whoa, hold up.
I just had a PM from a well meaning friend suggesting why I may be on a losing run.
I'm not on a losing run, but I'm just not making the profits I was previously. BIG difference.
Maybe I explained it badly, but I try to everything to the best of my ability, & perhaps I'm not doing that at the moment, hence the self examination & self-doubt. I'm not losing though. Yet......
I'm a very harsh self-critic, & I think I know when I'm making mistakes & where I do best or worst. But we all do, don't we?
mechanisms by which we win is something I've thought about for a while.
If every SNG was decided by a dual 4BB AI and you always had 60% vs 40%, you'd have an ROI of 10%. if its 55% vs 45% you'd be breakeven. lots of the PL08 SNG end game between good and ok players are decided by 55% vs 45% and often because you have to push to stay alive, players call and they 're ahead!
IMO ICM goes out the window at 4 handed 4BB play in PL08.
You'd always call with AA2, but are only 65% ish AIPF. 65% of 33% (33% is the maximum % equity in DON SNG) is 21%. all things being equal, you had 25% if you folded.
I think you should chip up during the early levels, why wouldn't you? At least in the short term you can use your image, in that knowone will/would play back as a bluff.
One has to enter pots with perceived weaker players to win their chips, waiting to the end game is weaker strategy against better players, because at the end, the edges are probably less than 10%, ie the rake (which I'm not obsessed with btw).
Thanks for mentioning the tournament thing to the bosses, the UKOPS got ca 100 players, maybe more people will play if there are reg higher tournaments, time will tell.
lastly, I disagree about the 1.1 tournaments being a lottery. its a strategy adjustment compared to the 5.5 game. The player pool has the weakest players, therefore your value hands get paid. You can wait till 4BB, get top 5% hand, get paid, even though you always have it, come back and still place! in that respect, you can also recover from mistakes. the 5.5 game is much harder, fewer players making huge errors and it always feels like after 10 mins you have 10BB!
Strategy adjustment in the £1.1 games? Yes, that's completely fair comment. Thing is, I can play 1 £5.50 or £11 game in 35 minutes, & one £1.1 MTT in 2 hours or more. If I could play TEN £1.1 MTT's an hour, yes, I'd be there like a shot. Unforch, I don't have the mental agility to play DYM's alongside MTT's, as e have to think SO differently.
Anyway, you've awakened my sleeping Diary, which I'm grateful for. I used to report my numbers every day, but who wants to read that day after day? So a chance to natter more generally was good.