In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : It's probably supposed to be an ICM fold. I probably click call anyway, because folding is no fun, and A267ds looks pretty. Posted by EvilPingu
Forget about ICM you have Tikay covered and can knock him out thus denting his stats, therefore auto call. That is the point of Hi Lo DYMs isn't it?
It is an interesting spot, is there any way to accurately run numbers Andy?
Given its TK raising, he knows that Golly is likely to ship, thus meaning he is prepared to go to at least 600, leaving him 1200ish behind, can't really ever see him folding that (in fact I can't think of a situation that TK ever opens then flats to a reraise, so IMO you have to be prepared for it all going in preflop).
If you are happy to get it in then call pre if not then fold.
As played I call every time, Eon has approx 1700, so even if you lose you will be ahead of him and the blinds are only 100/50 plenty play still left, the upside is you could potentially knock both out, and its TK THE ROBOT (A4C FTW ;-))
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Did you see the one last night when Tikay went out to KKK8? I genuinely felt sorry for him, although that is a character flaw I need to sort out! Posted by Enut
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : It's probably supposed to be an ICM fold. I probably click call anyway, because folding is no fun, and A267ds looks pretty. Posted by EvilPingu
Old dog...new trick.....lose a 4 handed DYM with a very short stacked away player :-)) Posted by VespaPX
Still don't quite know how that one got away from me.
I was sort of powerless to do anything though, as Ger & John (onejohn) had me handcuffed to my left. But I did not NEED to do anything, the 4th player had less than a BB.
It was something like this, in seat order, with blinds 100-200 or 150-300, something like that......
Shortie - less than a BB
Me, 2,200
Ger, 5,500
John 4,500
Ger & John were not messing about - the shortie had been away all game I think, it was just a matter of time. So John was not interfering from the Button, & the Shortie was forced all-in each time.
And he won EVERY time. For something like 2 or 3 levels, blinds were eventually 300-600 & he had not lost a single hand. And he had been forced all-in every time.
And my stack just dwindled, & dwindled......
Amazing game, PLO8. The fella played something like 20 hands "blind", & never lost one.
If I had found a playable hand, I could have raised into Ger or John, but I never did. And I did not NEED to. Or so I thought......
Or, in plain English, it is a formula which calculates the equity of our stack at a given point.
For the hand in question, it was a DYM with 5 players left, & blinds were 50-100. Pommy had 4,200, so in this case, assuming it was a £3 DYM, Pommy's chip equity was very close to £6.
In effect, he had the game locked, & could play conservatively/defensively, as he cannot (should not) lose this one. (Another player had 3,600, Eon 1,700, me 1,775 & Golly 600).
So those are the facts we need to know before we put any chips in the middle or make a marginal/risky play. We currently have huge equity, & cannot (within reason) lose this game.
"Teeks, this hand is bugging me. Hope you don't mind me posting it here for your readers views. If you think it should be in the clinic would have no problem if you move it. I really did not know what to do in this spot."
To view the hand, go to the foot of the previous page.
2) What range of hands do you think I open with in this spot?
3) Do you think you NEED to play this hand?
There is a massive difference between calling & raising. You flatted a 350 open, but did not close the action, so Golly then jammed & I rejammed. Now you called the extra 1,400 or whatever it was. So q4 is.....
4) If we think our hand is strong enough to CALL 1,700 with, why would we not raise in the first place? If we are prepared to call here, then surely we should be raising in the first place?
For better or worse, rightly or wrongly, I have a set of disciplines I use when playing. These are generalisations applicable to this specific spot. In different circumstances, (4 players, very big blinds, these change). Let's assume I am you, with your hand & chip stack.
1) RAISING is much much better than calling.
2) If I have the game locked, I won't be getting involved here. Why would I risk a game I have locked? It's a DYM (3 paid the same) not an MTT where we want to win all the chips.
3) A-2 is not necessarily a Premium hand, & we have missed the point of PLO8 if we think it is. And if we DO play A-2, make sure it is a good A-2. For instance, A-2-3-x (x, preferably a paint card) is MUCH stronger than A-2 without the 3, as we avoid the likelihood of a counterfeit.
4) RAISING with A-2 is far better than calling with A-2 - simply because the odds change dramatically as we force folds most of the time.
5) I much prefer to be "first to raise". If I have, say, A-Q-9-3, I can raise with this if nobody else has. Once someone else raises, my hand value completely changes, & now it's a fold. We must be prepared to change our mind based on what happens in front of us. This might be the biggest fault some of us have - we see our cards, think "ooh, this is a raising hand", but then when someone else opens, our hand value has decreased. If someone else opens, our hand now needs to be MUCH stronger.
6) There will NOT be a "low" board 35% of the time. So, if we extend that to, say, 1,000 hands, every time we call 1,000 chips with a low only hand, we are giving away 350 chips in equity. (A low hand can of course win without the low coming - Sets, Boats, Flushes, straights etc, so it is less than 35% in reality, call it 25%).
7) Remember ALWAYS we only enter pots we think we have a chance to scoop. We won't scoop them all, or even many, but that must be our thinking. I am entering this hand to scoop.
8) Do I need to play this hand? I have 4,200 chips, someone else has 3,600, & one player just 600.
9) If I play this hand I could bust 2 players. Equally, & more likely mathematically, we won't scoop.
10) I COULD bust 2 players here. It's mathematically unlikely with an A-2 hand though. It's more likely that instead of having the game locked, we are back in the pack. Even more crucially, do I really want to risk doubling up a competent player when I already have the game semi-locked?
It's not clear cut - it's neither terrible or great, it's quite close. So on balance, it's marginal.
The one thing, above all others I dislike about this play is just calling 350 with a hand which we were eventually prepared to call 1,750 with. If it is really worth 1,750, (which means it is a MONSTER) we should raise in the first place.
All IMO, of course.
What I have explained is my thinking in these spots.
Worth noting that we should be able to assign ranges to all of the regulars.
We know for example, that when Eon, Alexis, Whizzy, Ger etc raise, their hand is generally well "balanced", with a combo of A-2-3 & some paint. It could also be a very strong paint hand - A-K-K-Q DS for example. We almost always know where we are with these guys.
Some players tend to turn up with weird stuff quite a lot, so we call then much wider. Usually when they actually have a proper hand......;)
We even have 1 player who has what would be a raising hand if there were no action ahead of him. Say A-Q-9-3. But it goes pot, repot in front of him. But he STILL sticks with his original plan. This is a fold 100% of the time.
So, having waffled on about that 1 hand for an hour, how am I doing generally?
From mid September until early December, I've been on a huge heater, & the roll hit an all time high.
Last week, I managed the near impossible - 6 straight losing nights, but only £5 & £10 per night. Then, on Sunday, I ended £60 up, plus my Rewards money of £16, so it was a small profit for the week.
This week, same thing - small losses most night until Friday, when I knocked £47 in, ouchio. It was especially painful as I was £30 up after 29 games, but decided to play on to take advantage of 2X points. And lost 9 of the next 12, to go from £30 up to £47 down.
Last night I was in a big hole again, £26 down after 19 games, but then won 9 from 12 to pull it back to a £6 loss.
It is more than likely that this week will be a losing week though - my first in many months. Boo.
Some run bad, but quite a few mistakes & bad decisions. I've run a bit bad in the £11 & £16.50 games this week, but there have not been that many, except on Friday, when I played poorly overall.
Still loving the game though, & can't wait to start paying every night.
I'm on the hunt for points today. Was hoping for 1,500, but the traffic has been relatively quiet most nights, so I'm only on 1,299, & so 1,500 is highly unlikely. But you never know, so I might start early, maybe 4pm if there is any traffic around.
Bear with me as I have no idea at your game. Why don't you just flat and check down? By shoving you're going to drive Pom out of the pot on many occasions and now rather than 2 against 1 to bust Golly, it's just you Posted by Jac35
Well I could, I suppose, but how do I know Pommy won't pot it behind me? If there is a risk of that, I'm gonna retaliate first.
You could be right, but I'm assuming that Pommy will fold if I repot it - he only has 350 invested, & he only called, so it's hard to visualise he'll call 1,700 with a hand he just called 350 with. I could not visualise any hand he would call 1,750 with having just flatted to 350.
So I want his dead money & I prefer it heads up here as Golly can't bust me & I know my hand is better than hers. And if she flukes the high, I have the low back up. By allowing Pommy to stay in I risk getting a chop. I don't want a chop, I want the lot. This gets me to 3,000 & now I'm near locked.
Bear with me as I have no idea at your game. Why don't you just flat and check down? By shoving you're going to drive Pom out of the pot on many occasions and now rather than 2 against 1 to bust Golly, it's just you. Also there will be times when you come third in the hand and bubble Posted by Jac35
Comments
Been a while, busy busy busy, but let's try & get a bit more up to date with a few replies.
I was sort of powerless to do anything though, as Ger & John (onejohn) had me handcuffed to my left. But I did not NEED to do anything, the 4th player had less than a BB.
It was something like this, in seat order, with blinds 100-200 or 150-300, something like that......
Shortie - less than a BB
Me, 2,200
Ger, 5,500
John 4,500
Ger & John were not messing about - the shortie had been away all game I think, it was just a matter of time. So John was not interfering from the Button, & the Shortie was forced all-in each time.
And he won EVERY time. For something like 2 or 3 levels, blinds were eventually 300-600 & he had not lost a single hand. And he had been forced all-in every time.
And my stack just dwindled, & dwindled......
Amazing game, PLO8. The fella played something like 20 hands "blind", & never lost one.
If I had found a playable hand, I could have raised into Ger or John, but I never did. And I did not NEED to. Or so I thought......
How are you, all good? Is Bradford still dreadful?
What is ICM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Chip_Model
Or, in plain English, it is a formula which calculates the equity of our stack at a given point.
For the hand in question, it was a DYM with 5 players left, & blinds were 50-100. Pommy had 4,200, so in this case, assuming it was a £3 DYM, Pommy's chip equity was very close to £6.
In effect, he had the game locked, & could play conservatively/defensively, as he cannot (should not) lose this one. (Another player had 3,600, Eon 1,700, me 1,775 & Golly 600).
So those are the facts we need to know before we put any chips in the middle or make a marginal/risky play. We currently have huge equity, & cannot (within reason) lose this game.
So, Pommy asked this question.
"Teeks, this hand is bugging me. Hope you don't mind me posting it here for your readers views. If you think it should be in the clinic would have no problem if you move it.
I really did not know what to do in this spot."
To view the hand, go to the foot of the previous page.
The seat order was....(chip stacks are approx.)
SM - Golly 600
BB - yeahbutno 3,600
Seat 3 - Eon 1,700
Seat 4 - tikay 1,775
Seat 5 (button) Pommy 4,250
Firstly, a question or two or Pommy.
1) What did you THINK I had?
2) What range of hands do you think I open with in this spot?
3) Do you think you NEED to play this hand?
There is a massive difference between calling & raising. You flatted a 350 open, but did not close the action, so Golly then jammed & I rejammed. Now you called the extra 1,400 or whatever it was. So q4 is.....
4) If we think our hand is strong enough to CALL 1,700 with, why would we not raise in the first place? If we are prepared to call here, then surely we should be raising in the first place?
Now let's look at some general principles.
For better or worse, rightly or wrongly, I have a set of disciplines I use when playing. These are generalisations applicable to this specific spot. In different circumstances, (4 players, very big blinds, these change). Let's assume I am you, with your hand & chip stack.
1) RAISING is much much better than calling.
2) If I have the game locked, I won't be getting involved here. Why would I risk a game I have locked? It's a DYM (3 paid the same) not an MTT where we want to win all the chips.
3) A-2 is not necessarily a Premium hand, & we have missed the point of PLO8 if we think it is. And if we DO play A-2, make sure it is a good A-2. For instance, A-2-3-x (x, preferably a paint card) is MUCH stronger than A-2 without the 3, as we avoid the likelihood of a counterfeit.
4) RAISING with A-2 is far better than calling with A-2 - simply because the odds change dramatically as we force folds most of the time.
5) I much prefer to be "first to raise". If I have, say, A-Q-9-3, I can raise with this if nobody else has. Once someone else raises, my hand value completely changes, & now it's a fold. We must be prepared to change our mind based on what happens in front of us. This might be the biggest fault some of us have - we see our cards, think "ooh, this is a raising hand", but then when someone else opens, our hand value has decreased. If someone else opens, our hand now needs to be MUCH stronger.
6) There will NOT be a "low" board 35% of the time. So, if we extend that to, say, 1,000 hands, every time we call 1,000 chips with a low only hand, we are giving away 350 chips in equity. (A low hand can of course win without the low coming - Sets, Boats, Flushes, straights etc, so it is less than 35% in reality, call it 25%).
7) Remember ALWAYS we only enter pots we think we have a chance to scoop. We won't scoop them all, or even many, but that must be our thinking. I am entering this hand to scoop.
8) Do I need to play this hand? I have 4,200 chips, someone else has 3,600, & one player just 600.
9) If I play this hand I could bust 2 players. Equally, & more likely mathematically, we won't scoop.
10) I COULD bust 2 players here. It's mathematically unlikely with an A-2 hand though. It's more likely that instead of having the game locked, we are back in the pack. Even more crucially, do I really want to risk doubling up a competent player when I already have the game semi-locked?
So, for me, I'm folding in your spot.
It's not clear cut - it's neither terrible or great, it's quite close. So on balance, it's marginal.
The one thing, above all others I dislike about this play is just calling 350 with a hand which we were eventually prepared to call 1,750 with. If it is really worth 1,750, (which means it is a MONSTER) we should raise in the first place.
All IMO, of course.
What I have explained is my thinking in these spots.
And for those wondering......
I had good aces. (My hand here will ALWAYS be balanced).
Pommy had A-2-6-7dd
Golly- well I can't actually remember her hand, but it was almost certainly 4 paint cards without an ace - that is her predominant range.
Pommy scooped - he hit quad sixes.
Worth noting that we should be able to assign ranges to all of the regulars.
We know for example, that when Eon, Alexis, Whizzy, Ger etc raise, their hand is generally well "balanced", with a combo of A-2-3 & some paint. It could also be a very strong paint hand - A-K-K-Q DS for example. We almost always know where we are with these guys.
Some players tend to turn up with weird stuff quite a lot, so we call then much wider. Usually when they actually have a proper hand......;)
We even have 1 player who has what would be a raising hand if there were no action ahead of him. Say A-Q-9-3. But it goes pot, repot in front of him. But he STILL sticks with his original plan. This is a fold 100% of the time.
So, having waffled on about that 1 hand for an hour, how am I doing generally?
From mid September until early December, I've been on a huge heater, & the roll hit an all time high.
Last week, I managed the near impossible - 6 straight losing nights, but only £5 & £10 per night. Then, on Sunday, I ended £60 up, plus my Rewards money of £16, so it was a small profit for the week.
This week, same thing - small losses most night until Friday, when I knocked £47 in, ouchio. It was especially painful as I was £30 up after 29 games, but decided to play on to take advantage of 2X points. And lost 9 of the next 12, to go from £30 up to £47 down.
Last night I was in a big hole again, £26 down after 19 games, but then won 9 from 12 to pull it back to a £6 loss.
It is more than likely that this week will be a losing week though - my first in many months. Boo.
Some run bad, but quite a few mistakes & bad decisions. I've run a bit bad in the £11 & £16.50 games this week, but there have not been that many, except on Friday, when I played poorly overall.
Still loving the game though, & can't wait to start paying every night.
I'm on the hunt for points today. Was hoping for 1,500, but the traffic has been relatively quiet most nights, so I'm only on 1,299, & so 1,500 is highly unlikely. But you never know, so I might start early, maybe 4pm if there is any traffic around.
Have a lovely Sunday, whatever your plans.
You could be right, but I'm assuming that Pommy will fold if I repot it - he only has 350 invested, & he only called, so it's hard to visualise he'll call 1,700 with a hand he just called 350 with. I could not visualise any hand he would call 1,750 with having just flatted to 350.
So I want his dead money & I prefer it heads up here as Golly can't bust me & I know my hand is better than hers. And if she flukes the high, I have the low back up. By allowing Pommy to stay in I risk getting a chop. I don't want a chop, I want the lot. This gets me to 3,000 & now I'm near locked.
In theory.....