I personally don't mind sharkscope, however, I have to agree, I think there should be an opt in rule rather than an opt out policy.
When I joined Pokerstars sharkscope were not allowed to show my stats unless I opted in.
One or Two questions i would like to ask.........
1. How does the information that sharkscope scrape become public information in the first instance? 2. Can disclosure of this information be stopped somehow within the software? 3. If sharkcope are not allowed to show stats from pokerstars players without opting in, then why does the same rule not apply to Sky Poker?
I realise that once information becomes public and is without copyright, it can be used for all manor of things, but we should really be asking how this information is released/obtained and is there anything that could or should be done about it..
Will answer the questions you've asked a bit later, or in the morning. Keep them coming, terrific discussion. I need to pop up to my allotment for an hour. Posted by Tikay10
Best get them carrots covered up....snow is on the way
I stopped playing on 888 because it no longer appears on sharkscope. If sky are thinking of doing the same then I will reluctantly spend my time elsewhere. So hopefully this thread is not implying that it will!
I use ss like most but it's mainly just to check my own progress but agree with rancid-ban the lot of em!!!
On another note, if sharkscope get this data from sky (and the rest) and then sell this information and the statistics they derive and it's less than 100% accurate, why don't sky (and the rest) gather their own 100% accurate data/statistics and sell it to their own punters? Something seems morally more wrong with this but it is essentially the same thing!
Quite happy to sit on the fence with Sharkscope. I use it, obviously being an MTT player, but I wouldn't be too fussed if it disappeared overnight.
A couple of things it is useful for include catching out liars but more seriously and importantly, and speaking from experience, it can be a kick up the @rse/wake up call/insert cliché here for poor/losing players.
I had no idea how much down I was on Sky until someone mentioned it one day. I was actually pretty shocked at the amount. I didn't even know SS existed at the time!
I think Lambert made a valid point in that the kind of people who will abuse you about your SS stats are also the kind of people who will just abuse you full stop.
Think the main thing about Sharkscope is the misinformation out there about it.
Discussions like this and spreading the facts about SS is the way forward.
I'd advise anyone who sees SS stats being used in an offensive way to try and educate players about the tool.
With the new tables that have chat easily visible, hopefully we as a community can help players with this tricky issue.
In Response to Re: Thinking out loud - Sharkscope. : Yup, fair comment - but they SELL that information! PS - You CAN hide it, as some other Online sites already have stopped Sharkscope doing so unless the player chooses to opt in, or that is as I understand it. "It's OK as long as people know when they sign up they are being tracked". But they don't. Do you think a poker newbie KNOWS that? There is nothing in Sky Poker's T & C's which says "another site may publish your Sky Poker results unless you specifically opt out". Sky poker do not knowingly allow it, it just happens. For the record, yeah, I like Sharkscope, too, but that's hardly the point. Posted by Tikay10[/QUOYE
sharkscope should be banned why should the average player have his/her results shown too all and sundry? if people want too know how good/bad u are they should play you and build up they,re own knowledge of you.not look for advantages on other players through third party sites.which sky doe,s not condone..whatever way you look at it it is cheating and defeats the purpose of skys refusal too allow huds and other poker helpers..this is what makes the average player wonder if online poker reallty is fair and random! why should players who play the game for fun have they,re results published on a site that openly supports allsorts of different ways too basically cheat the average every day player?the so called better players should not need these sites if they are so good anyway.i remember not so long ago when sky did the rake the rake promotion and all the so called top players of sky where up in arms at the fact these players where going too receive the the same privileges that they had and where worried about if they would be able too win as often as they had been. the reason i like many others play on sky is the fact they don,t support these sites. But as i have asked before why has sky not tried too stop sites like these publishing results from skys games/tournaments. as if sky want too keep the trust they have from normal recreational players they must keep it fair and unhindered as it is supposed to be on sky...as the way it is it seems like sky is happy too allow 3rd partys too publish sky players results even although sky doe,s not support 3rd party interference....or so they claim..i also note it is the so called better players that are all for sharkscope! i wonder why that is?if you are as good as you think you are the only info you should have on a player is the info you have gained by playing your opponent not using what is basically a tool for stalking opponents? thats just my opinion....p.s if other sites can make sharkscope have too have players opt in before they can publish results why has sky not done the same?after all sky prides itself on having a level playing field!and not allowing 3rd party software too run alongside its own software?
In Response to Re: Thinking out loud - Sharkscope. :
In Response to Re: Thinking out loud - Sharkscope. : Yup, fair comment - but they SELL that information! PS - You CAN hide it, as some other Online sites already have stopped Sharkscope doing so unless the player chooses to opt in, or that is as I understand it. "It's OK as long as people know when they sign up they are being tracked". But they don't. Do you think a poker newbie KNOWS that? There is nothing in Sky Poker's T & C's which says "another site may publish your Sky Poker results unless you specifically opt out". Sky poker do not knowingly allow it, it just happens. For the record, yeah, I like Sharkscope, too, but that's hardly the point. Posted by Tikay10[/QUOYE
sharkscope should be banned why should the average player have his/her results shown too all and sundry? if people want too know how good/bad u are they should play you and build up they,re own knowledge of you.not look for advantages on other players through third party sites.which sky doe,s not condone..whatever way you look at it it is cheating and defeats the purpose of skys refusal too allow huds and other poker helpers..this is what makes the average player wonder if online poker reallty is fair and random! why should players who play the game for fun have they,re results published on a site that openly supports allsorts of different ways too basically cheat the average every day player?the so called better players should not need these sites if they are so good anyway.i remember not so long ago when sky did the rake the rake promotion and all the so called top players of sky where up in arms at the fact these players where going too receive the the same privileges that they had and where worried about if they would be able too win as often as they had been. the reason i like many others play on sky is the fact they don,t support these sites. But as i have asked before why has sky not tried too stop sites like these publishing results from skys games/tournaments. as if sky want too keep the trust they have from normal recreational players they must keep it fair and unhindered as it is supposed to be on sky...as the way it is it seems like sky is happy too allow 3rd partys too publish sky players results even although sky doe,s not support 3rd party interference....or so they claim..i also note it is the so called better players that are all for sharkscope! i wonder why that is?if you are as good as you think you are the only info you should have on a player is the info you have gained by playing your opponent not using what is basically a tool for stalking opponents? thats just my opinion....p.s if other sites can make sharkscope have too have players opt in before they can publish results why has sky not done the same?after all sky prides itself on having a level playing field!and not allowing 3rd party software too run alongside its own software? Posted by churchy18
No it shouldn't.
No they weren't.
You seem very anti sharkscope Churchy, any reason why?
You argue why Sky hasn't followed another sites example and make people opt in to view stuff as opposed to opting out. I could counter that by saying why should I have to opt in to chart my own progress (or lack of)?
Sharkscope just exists. It's just there. If people want to use it then fill your boots. If not, then don't lose any sleep over it. And if you want to keep results secret, then just have your account locked.
I'm glad it's encouraged some good discussion though.
Churchy, please space things out a little more. It's tough reading a single block of text.
I'm not much of a sharkscope user myself, as I rarely play MTT's. I don't have a particular interest, so don't think I'm coming at this with a partisan view. Anyway, a couple of things I'd say in response to your post:
If good players would prefer sharkscope to remain, it is only because they have put the effort in to become good players and have discovered such tools. I actually think that many recreational, break even and losing players use scope as well. These are the players who seek to improve their game. It has to be repeated that it is not Sharkscope that publish tournament and SNG results, it is Sky Poker and every other poker site. Scope only take that information and collate it to present it in another manner.
The advantage that sharkscope allows over a new player unfamiliar with it is very limited, anyway. It generally becomes apparent very early whether someone knows what they're doing. Sharkscope might tell you if a player has lost money over a prolonged period but it doesn't tell you how they play their draws, pairs or monsters. It's greatest use is in monitoring your own progress but, in my opinion, even that is limited in its usefulness.
The Rake The Rake issue is nothing to do with players fearing that they might not win so often. I won't go into details because this post would be deleted, however the problem is that RTR tagged players are paid more rakeback for doing the exact same thing as the rest of us. The players earning over 30k points a month would be unaffected but you and I, the recreational players, are the ones disadvantaged; effectively paying more for the same service.
I'm very surprised that Scope has generated so much debate, to be honest. It just offers the same information available to everyone in a refined manner. As I've said, it doesn't charge people for providing that public information, it charges for interpreting that information for players. They charge for their service.
Churchy, please space things out a little more. It's tough reading a single block of text. I'm not much of a sharkscope user myself, as I rarely play MTT's. I don't have a particular interest, so don't think I'm coming at this with a partisan view. Anyway, a couple of things I'd say in response to your post: If good players would prefer sharkscope to remain, it is only because they have put the effort in to become good players and have discovered such tools. I actually think that many recreational, break even and losing players use scope as well. These are the players who seek to improve their game. It has to be repeated that it is not Sharkscope that publish tournament and SNG results, it is Sky Poker and every other poker site. Scope only take that information and collate it to present it in another manner. The advantage that sharkscope allows over a new player unfamiliar with it is very limited, anyway. It generally becomes apparent very early whether someone knows what they're doing. Sharkscope might tell you if a player has lost money over a prolonged period but it doesn't tell you how they play their draws, pairs or monsters. It's greatest use is in monitoring your own progress but, in my opinion, even that is limited in its usefulness. The Rake The Rake issue is nothing to do with players fearing that they might not win so often. I won't go into details because this post would be deleted, however the problem is that RTR tagged players are paid more rakeback for doing the exact same thing as the rest of us. The players earning over 30k points a month would be unaffected but you and I, the recreational players, are the ones disadvantaged; effectively paying more for the same service. I'm very surprised that Scope has generated so much debate, to be honest. It just offers the same information available to everyone in a refined manner. As I've said, it doesn't charge people for providing that public information, it charges for interpreting that information for players. They charge for their service. Posted by BorinLoner
+1
I think ss is perfectly fair, as Borin said, it doesn't help you know how to play against anyone. The only thing I dont like about it is that new players don't neccesarily know that their results are being collected and presented in a way thats easy to see how they have been doing.
I promised to reply to subsequent questions, so I'll have a little bash at it shortly.
Several questions, in slightly differing form, are asked repeatedly, so I'll not reply to every one, just sort of sweep them up into single replies.
I need to do things elsewhere today - mow the lawn, have an hour at the gym, & watch my Green Goddess Exercise video - so any subsequent questions later today I'll deal with tomorrow.
Enjoy your Saturday.
Don't forget, too, that I have given you all the winner of this afternoon's Hennessy Gold Cup in my weekly UKPC Video Update. Can't lose, see?*
*Terms & Conditions apply. Winners can go down as well as up.
Good morning all My ss says i am down £1200, i have been playing for over 2 years now , so i am losing about £11.52 per week . I have been verbally abused by some small minded people for been a losing player , When i have ss them a lot of the time they have opted out. Which reminds me of the old saying smashing up your neighbours furniture doesnt make yours any better. Ihave no problem with people knowing i am a losing player so i choose not to opt out. does ss record sky poker rewards payments, if not i earn between £10 to £15 per month , so my losses are under a grand not bad considering i have allowed my self £40 per week budget. All the best Rainman397. PS. DEEPSTACK @2.20PM FOR £2.20 TIKAY ALREADY REGISTERED 4 TOURNAMENT. Posted by rainman397
When I was a relative newbie to this great game we adore I was sat playing in a tournament on Sky Poker and one of the players started reeling off the profit and loss of every player on the table having a dig at a couple of them who had lost quite a lot of money. I was fuming at the time how could they do this I actually contacted customer care here to complain to be told they could not do anything about this. I seriously considered stopping playing I was that mad, I wasn't one of those losing by the way at that time. It was after this I found out about SS and that it was available on virtually all the main poker sites. I have visited the site but only read the terms and conditions faQs etc I have never used it to scope myself or anyone else for that matter even with the 5 free scopes per day you can use. At this point in time personally I feel it would be a backwards step for Sky to take any action to prevent the results being scraped as you put it (whatever that is lol) without other sites doing the same thing. You would probably just see many of the serious tournament and SAG grinders take their business elsewhere. However if as you say Tikay that other sites are moving away from allowing this scraping or taking other steps to get it stopped then I would love to see it happen here also. Posted by a00rock
I have no idea if Sky Poker will go that route.
However, several sites, some very well known & successful, have started to go down that route, & it has not harmed them at all, quite the contrary. I understand from industry chatter that other sites are also contemplating the matter. None of them have "attached" Forums where these things can be dabated & discussed, though.
I think Sky Poker will do what they think is right in the current climate.
Hmmmm, surely the question here is as Chickenmelt states. Is it ethical or not? We live in an age where personal information is bought and sold by a vast amount of different sources. Whilst Sky Poker may not,Sky itself does. Buy something,log onto something,inquire about something. It all gets tracked somewhere. And don,t get me started on any of the so called social networking sights. Governments used to spend millions trying to find out what the populace was thinking and doing. Now all they have to do is look on facebook! When i signed up a few weeks ago i knew that i was hopeless and that it was going to be quite painful at times and was going to cost me a few bob to improve. I certainly don,t need sharkscope to tell me that i,m cr-p and anyone who sits at a table with me will soon suss it out.Which i would have thought is what good players do. So if good players can tell when a "fish" sits down what do they need sharkscope for? Or is it a tool only useful to the players towards the top of the tree to give them the edge against players around them. Bit like a sliderule really(nice to look at but you,ve got to know how to use it!) Sorry about the digression. My feeling is that unless you opt in then your info stays within Skys domain. Just remember, when the machines rise up against us one of us is going to have to travel back in time to save the world! Posted by YOYOY
That is the key part - the default is backwards. It's about whether players should have to opt out, as at present, or opt in.
I would imagine that the "opt-in" at a players discretion would be unaffected if any action were taken.
Comments
When I joined Pokerstars sharkscope were not allowed to show my stats unless I opted in.
One or Two questions i would like to ask.........
1. How does the information that sharkscope scrape become public information in the first instance?
2. Can disclosure of this information be stopped somehow within the software?
3. If sharkcope are not allowed to show stats from pokerstars players without opting in, then why does the same rule not apply to Sky Poker?
I realise that once information becomes public and is without copyright, it can be used for all manor of things, but we should really be asking how this information is released/obtained and is there anything that could or should be done about it..
Will answer the questions you've asked a bit later, or in the morning.
Keep them coming, terrific discussion.
I need to pop up to my allotment for an hour.
Would anyone really want tourney lobbies to be secret? Not knowing who is in the tournament unless you're in it yourself?
Ger
A couple of things it is useful for include catching out liars
I had no idea how much down I was on Sky until someone mentioned it one day. I was actually pretty shocked at the amount. I didn't even know SS existed at the time!
I'm not much of a sharkscope user myself, as I rarely play MTT's. I don't have a particular interest, so don't think I'm coming at this with a partisan view. Anyway, a couple of things I'd say in response to your post:
If good players would prefer sharkscope to remain, it is only because they have put the effort in to become good players and have discovered such tools. I actually think that many recreational, break even and losing players use scope as well. These are the players who seek to improve their game. It has to be repeated that it is not Sharkscope that publish tournament and SNG results, it is Sky Poker and every other poker site. Scope only take that information and collate it to present it in another manner.
The advantage that sharkscope allows over a new player unfamiliar with it is very limited, anyway. It generally becomes apparent very early whether someone knows what they're doing. Sharkscope might tell you if a player has lost money over a prolonged period but it doesn't tell you how they play their draws, pairs or monsters. It's greatest use is in monitoring your own progress but, in my opinion, even that is limited in its usefulness.
The Rake The Rake issue is nothing to do with players fearing that they might not win so often. I won't go into details because this post would be deleted, however the problem is that RTR tagged players are paid more rakeback for doing the exact same thing as the rest of us. The players earning over 30k points a month would be unaffected but you and I, the recreational players, are the ones disadvantaged; effectively paying more for the same service.
I'm very surprised that Scope has generated so much debate, to be honest. It just offers the same information available to everyone in a refined manner. As I've said, it doesn't charge people for providing that public information, it charges for interpreting that information for players. They charge for their service.
Good morning.
I promised to reply to subsequent questions, so I'll have a little bash at it shortly.
Several questions, in slightly differing form, are asked repeatedly, so I'll not reply to every one, just sort of sweep them up into single replies.
I need to do things elsewhere today - mow the lawn, have an hour at the gym, & watch my Green Goddess Exercise video - so any subsequent questions later today I'll deal with tomorrow.
Enjoy your Saturday.
Don't forget, too, that I have given you all the winner of this afternoon's Hennessy Gold Cup in my weekly UKPC Video Update. Can't lose, see?*
*Terms & Conditions apply. Winners can go down as well as up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugugr13LD1A
No, not as far as I am aware.
However, several sites, some very well known & successful, have started to go down that route, & it has not harmed them at all, quite the contrary. I understand from industry chatter that other sites are also contemplating the matter. None of them have "attached" Forums where these things can be dabated & discussed, though.
I think Sky Poker will do what they think is right in the current climate.
I would imagine that the "opt-in" at a players discretion would be unaffected if any action were taken.