it's kind of a delicate risk/reward balancing act & most late stage scenarios are totally unique based on stack sizes & opponents.
table image goes a long way, some players are feared, some targeted, some always get respect when they raise - it's important to try & be aware of how you're perceived by each & every opponent.
from there you can plan the best way to progress - whether you can cruise for a while, whether you need to get involved, who you can pressure & who to try & avoid.
it's only really by experience that you get more comfortable in these stressful situations & believe me, even the pros get it horribly wrong more times than you'd think; i don't care how many chips you have, no ones a shoe-in to final table when there's 16 players left,
back in the day i learnt a lot just railing the last few tables, you get to understand the ebb & the flow, when the good players apply pressure, when they know they should back-off
try not to get disheartened, learn from your mistakes & you'll get there eventually
1. try & get a good nights sleep the night before the event
2. set off with time to spare - there's nothing worse than being delayed & then stressing about getting there in time; you want to walk in & take your seat feeling relaxed
3. don't waste time fretting about who might be on your table - it is what it is.
if you sit down & sam trickett is sat to your left view it as a fantastic opportunity to play with one of the greats rather than rueing your luck - negativity will handcuff your game
4. try to maintain a positive mindset - you're gonna win some pots, you're gonna lose some pots, what's crucial is that you keep an eye on the big picture;
your goal should be to get through the day - hopefully you'll have more chips than you started with but some days you just have to survive & value your short stack even if it's just 15k from a 30k starting stack when the average is 75k.
i can't tell you the amount of times (myself included) that i've seen players mentally give up & throw away a 20bb stack 'cos it's not worth coming back with such a short stack is it'.
poppycock, day 2 is another day, new table, maybe new luck - no give up!
5. try to enjoy the experience - you'll probably go through every emotion known to man during a 10hr stint at the tables; just realise that everyone else goes through the same emotional rollercoaster ride & it doesn't seem quite so daunting.
6. i truly believe that anyone can make a final table - yeah you need a sprinkling of rungood but the main ingredient is self-belief.
I have a question about a hand I played in the UKPC Main event at the weekend. Its the hand I went out on, and its been bugging me ever since...
Blinds 600/1200 ante 200
Hero's stack: around 80k
Reads on the table from 1.5 hrs play.
player A: a very active middle aged gentleman, seems reasonably solid but has been opening a wide range of hands from all positions.
Player B: pro, TAG.
Hero image: nutural/weak. Only played a few hands and have given up when played back at. My image could be on the timid side. My stack had dwindled from 95k at the start of the day.
Both players have more chips than hero...
Action:
Hero opens from Mid position with JJ to 2.5k
Player b flats
Player A raises to 9.8k from the SB
What now?
I wasnt sure what to do here, flatting for such a large % of my stack didnt seem attractive. It doesnt define the hand and leaves me guessing for my whole stack.
But then shoving also seemed a bit on the large side, I do get folds from some hands that will have plenty of equity Ax, KQ SCs etc, but I will mostly get called by hands that crush me or are flipping.
I did also think about folding, with the slow structure and an average stack, I can possibly find some less slose spots. On the other hand, the table seems tough. no free chips from what I have seen so far. folding seemed a bit weak.
What would you do and why?
What I did and Why
I shoved, this is why:
There was already around 20k in the pot (my 2.5k, player b's 2.5k, the blinds, antes and the 9.8k raise from player A) which was around 1/4 of my stack.
Player A had been one of, if not the most active player on the table. I hadn't seen him 3bet yet though.
The raise sizing made me think his range was weighted towards hands that want to take down the hand now. Typically people raise larger with hands like AK/AQ/ SCs smal PPs (hands where they would rather take down the pot than play out of position), than they do with AA/KK. My view was that the raise was on the larger side, so was more likely to be AQ/AK than AA/KK
It looked like a perfect squeeze spot - a slightly timid player opens, a pro hoping to play a pot in position flats..
What Happened
I shoved, and got snapped off by AA. AA held and I exited.
it's very read/game flow dependant but i prefer flatting, seeing a flop & re-evaluting with position - could see myself giving up on some flops, peeling others with a view to maybe giving up depending how i feel about his hand on the turn.
whilst not ideal, it's not the end of the world if we do 10k pre & 10 or 12k on the flop, we'd still have 50bb which, irrelevant of what the average is is still a fine stack.
tough spot given villians style, i've def shoved here in similar-ish situations in the past, the problem is you either pick up the 15k or do the whole 80k when he has it.
this sometimes helps me keep a level head when i'm playing well; the next time you face a tricky spot, ask yourself 'what would timex do?' (insert own hero of choice) pretty sure he wouldn't shove Posted by yoyo
Good advice...I guess alot of the time we do know deep down what the correct annswer is... we just have to have the balls to pull it off.
not sure if it makes much difference, but the pot was closer to 20k, 25k + if I called. I'd expect roughly a half pot bet on the flop with this player, that I would call on most boards. So on the turn I would have roughly 50k behind with 50k in the pot.
still though - ur right, timex would still flat pre and then soul read his way to making the correct moves postflop...I read recently that you should only EVER bet for value, or as a bluff. Any other reason should come secondary (information, protection, easier decisions etc) and can be achieved by betting different amounts. I guess my move was neither value or a bluff and its only real positive was protection vs overcards.
I dont think it would have made any difference in this instance, because the board was 9 high with no real draws anyway. Are you ever able to get away from a pot like this on a 9 high board with JJ? say for example you had flatted pre, flop is 9 high, turn is also below a 9 and the villain shoves 50k into a 50k pot, do you call for your tourney life?
Timex will do just fine for the hero... $4m in cashes this year so far. And didnt that include 3 consecutive 7 figure scores. the man is a machine. Been a fan for a while, but this year makes the rest of his career look average, which is crazy.
Something else I'm interested in, how did the standard compare to other £1k events you have played? My guess is that it would be similar, but slightly softer simply because of the large number of qualifiers. I felt like I held my own pretty well and I'll be trying to satelite into some more of the UK tours.
def softer than the average 1k, not that it did me any good whatsoever.
obv a lot of the time we are going to see boards with no overcards which does make it tougher to play - i think the turn will be crucial point in the hand - i can def let JJ go on a low board, it just comes down to how you feel, how you perceive the guy, to call it off or fold & survive.
hopefully the next time we are better able to calmly assess the best course of action.
no one style of play is right or wrong & i'm far from advocating a super-nit style but, i'd wager, if we look at sundays FT at least 3 of the players there would have just folded to the 3b, avoiding any guesswork & just waiting for better spots;
sometimes the tortoises get there & it's good to recognise what they do well.
I would like to know your opinion when in MTT at a fairly late stage where blinds are say 200/400 (or 400/800 etc) and you have 10,000 chips..everyone folds round and your in the SB vs BB you see someone will chuck it in 95% of the time, what range of hands are you happy doing this with, i know its table dependent to a certain extent, but it seems this is a area i might be to passive on and only wait till i have a Ace high hand..or sometimes i like to flat call it then win it with a bet on the flop?.... also i would be interested to hear your opinion when your in the BB and the SB is continually shoving, or raising you..what do you do?
Ok, Thanks for the advice. I took your advice and played around on pro poker tools a bit... this is what I came up with
If the player is capable of bluffing, (raising hands other than just TT-AA, AQ, AK) then you should be flatting preflop, and hoping that your head is clear enough to make good post flop decisions based on the board and action. If I think the villain is likely to fire more than one bullet a high percentage of the time, whether they hit or not, I think I might just fold anyway. I would expect to have around 60% equity if the villain has a balanced bluff/value range.
If the player is tight, and is likely to be weighted towards value with their 3bet range, then you should just fold. You have 47% equity vs TT-AA and AQ, AK, and crucially, you are unikely to get value from many of them since you will mostly either be dominated by an overpair, or the villain will miss the flop and just have A high when you are ahead.
I think it is a clear mistake to shove, unless you think your opponent will call a shove pretty wide (88+, KQ+). and even then its close.
Do you have any interesting hands from the UKPC you think you might have gotten wrong?
Another hand, I'd be interested in your opinion on, again from the UKPC...
Hero 28k, Blinds 200/400, ante 50
Hero has Ad4x in the SB
Been at the table for ages. Villain has a big stack (70k), and opens wide in position, is a good player (GUKPT winner) and I have seen him make a couple of good laydowns.
Villain opens CO to 1k
Hero 3bets to 2.8k
Villain flats
Pot - around 7k
Flop 93d5d
Hero leads for 2.8k
Villain raises to 7.5k
Hero Shoves
My thinking behing the shove was that I was representing an overpair or better, had some robust equity (Gutshot, Backdoor FD, and possibly an A) and could get them to fold almost all of their range... What could they really have that can call? 99 and a slowplayed QQ+ possibly a FD and overcards ??
i tend to play my SB quite passive as i'm out of position.
online on sky poker where there are no antes i wouldn't consider shoving anything over a 10bb stack, but w 10 or below would def consider getting any pair, Q9+ any ace & 67s+ in
calling-wise when facing a 10bb shove from the SB in the BB, depending on opponents tendencies i'm likely to call as light as Q-10, K7+, most pairs & most aces.
this is kinda of the top of my head though i would adjust it depending on who i'm playing.
so we're looking at SB />BB & BB>SB shoving ranges? i tend to play my SB quite passive as i'm out of position. online on sky poker where there are no antes i wouldn't consider shoving anything over a 10bb stack, but w 10 or below would def consider getting any pair, Q9+ any ace & 67s+ in calling-wise when facing a 10bb shove from the SB in the BB, depending on opponents tendencies i'm likely to call as light as Q-10, K7+, most pairs & most aces. this is kinda of the top of my head though i would adjust it depending on who i'm playing. Posted by yoyo
Thanks
Another thing popped up on the way to lunch, how do you deal with someone donkbetting into you
You have A10 blinds 200/400 you raise BB 1,200 (hes fishy, likes to see a lot of flops)
He calls, you dont hit the flop, he donk bets 400 in to you..now what?
this sometimes helps me keep a level head when i'm playing well; the next time you face a tricky spot, ask yourself 'what would timex do?' (insert own hero of choice) pretty sure he wouldn't shove Posted by yoyo
I'm certainly no expert, but I think I'm probably calling to see the flop and then folding if I get the sense I'm behind (depending on board texture, betting, etc). It's maybe a bit much to be shoving that big a stack with jacks. You can certainly get away from dangerous flops and still have enough left behind to play.
I'm certainly no expert, but I think I'm probably calling to see the flop and then folding if I get the sense I'm behind (depending on board texture, betting, etc). It's maybe a bit much to be shoving that big a stack with jacks. You can certainly get away from dangerous flops and still have enough left behind to play. Posted by Slipwater
yep, that definately seems preferable to shoving.
At the time though I just couldnt see what flatting and then calling a flop bet would really leave me.... I could just see it going bet/ call, bet/fold soo much postflop. I cant imagine any board that I'd be happy calling a turn bet on - with overcards or without, since their 3bet/ 2 barrel range would be weighted towards hands that beat me??
The more I think about it, the more I like a fold. There are just so many avenues that we end up going down that lead to us really needing to know information we dont know to make the correct decision (is the villain capable of a 2barrel bluff on a 6 high board with AK?? does the villain 3bet a balanced range preflop? etc)
wierdly, this is why I ended up pushing combined with my (incorrect) bet sizing read. Wish I just folded. Might have been able to find a fold if I hadnt been card dead for the last couple of hours.
sry for the tumbleweed folks, was in dublin for the ukipt & offline for the majority of it.
unlucky last night chicken, no way did i expect to see AA there blind on blind, you'd a had me if i didn't luckbox trips w A9 on Kx9x9...
think your line A4 BB v CO looks fine once you've 3b pre, story adds up/checks out...am guessing you got the fold or maybe luckboxed a double up?
like your thorough analysis of the JJ hand, pretty sure you'll be far better prepped for any similar spots next time which is what it's all about right
In Response to Re: Ask Thewy - Tournament Q&A with Julian Thew : Thanks Another thing popped up on the way to lunch, how do you deal with someone donkbetting into you You have A10 blinds 200/400 you raise BB 1,200 (hes fishy, likes to see a lot of flops) He calls, you dont hit the flop, he donk bets 400 in to you..now what? Posted by alex1229
sometimes i'll just give up but rarely to a min bet...just raise them & you'll be surprised how often they snap fold*
sry for the tumbleweed folks, was in dublin for the ukipt & offline for the majority of it. unlucky last night chicken, no way did i expect to see AA there blind on blind, you'd a had me if i didn't luckbox trips w A9 on Kx9x9... think your line A4 BB v CO looks fine once you've 3b pre, story adds up/checks out...am guessing you got the fold or maybe luckboxed a double up? like your thorough analysis of the JJ hand, pretty sure you'll be far better prepped for any similar spots next time which is what it's all about right Posted by yoyo
Not a problem, suspected you were busy working how was UKIPT?
A9 vs my AA: ha yeah, I nearly checked back the river too...it felt a bit like a 9. but I ended up telling myself you would call with alot of other hands i beat + i was pretty short anyway. obviously, you had the 9. sigh.
my line with A4: yeah, villain passed JJ face up lol. I felt pretty lucky that he folded and it just got me thinking whether it was a bit spewy.
jj hand: ty, yeah I feel like I have it sorted in my head for next time now.
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