In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : Good to here they weren't ruthless with you, at least priority doesn't look too far from your grasp again : ) Posted by Poker_Fail
Thanks PF :-)
Very pleasing little session tonight:
Played 11 £22s W 8 L 3 Played 9 £11s W 7 L 2 Played 1 £16.50 W 1 Bankroll - £628.02 Poker points - 2,145
Whisper it but I think this is the highest my bankroll has been since beginning this challenge. It's always nice to be on a high and still have a weekend day (ie good games ) to come. Can almost smell the £33s... Probably just jinxed everything :-)
that,s the name of the game jc at the higher levels; it,s win big, lose big.
you are still doing well though, keep going.
not playing as much myself, but came 3rd in f/football free roll y/day won £25 and got c4p today £15 so over the $400 barrier 4 the 1st time, so still very pleased with the way it,s heading; balance £416.67
Great stuff devon, getting close. Congrats on the freeroll cash, 3rd place, that's a huge field that one isn't it?
Better (if small) session for me tonight:
Played 6 £11s W 5 L 1 Played 2 £16.50s W 1 L 1 Played 4 £22s W 3 L 1 Bankroll - £614.02 Poker points - 2,585 (which means that if the month was to end now I would be benefiting under the new regime)
Can't really quibble with using DYM's at relatively low levels as a means of building a bankroll and can't fault John for the generous advice he gives here.
My issues with this thread are:
Firstly, once we have our Bankroll upto say £1k, what then? I suspect games either become super tough at higher levels or there just isn't enough liquidity to keep playing the volume we need to sustain our progress.
I have not really researched this and correct me if I'm wrong, but don't think these games really exist on the larger sites (or if they did the same issues as above would apply)
Secondly, you only need to look at Sharkscope to see how disproportionately the site wins due to rake versus what even a decent winning player can make out of these games.
Thirdly, maybe most importantly, as we build our bankroll we are picking up very few useful poker skills/experience that will transfer to other types of game.
I have moved back to cash now as i found it difficult to put in the volume required and remain interested in DYM's - PS this is not just sour grapes... I do think John's advice is a great way to build a modest bankroll
nice to see u winning at the £22,s jc, about time....lol
hi simonnatur, some interesting thoughts. i have been playing dym,s for about 7 weeks now, after coming across jc,s brilliant post,by accident i might add. and am i soooooo glad i did. played afew micro,s to test the water, won at all levels. now playing @ £3.30 won £210 b/roll at £420.57
so once i get to just over £500 asuming i can keep on winning, will probably/almost definately, move up to £5.50,s.
regarding your point on what happens when we get our b/roll up to 1k i think we just keep on playing more of the same,don,t we?, if you can get to 1k,then surely just carry on untill you get to 2k, although,i know what u mean.(LET U KNOW WHEN I GET THERE......lol)
regarding how much the site wins of course they win,as it,s there business to win, they win on every type of game. don,t think they have taken anything from me though, for the past 7 weeks, (sure have made up for that playing cash)
as you say,as we are building our b/roll, i think we probably are picking up some usefull skills along the way, although i,m sure alot of cash players would disagree with that, (as some talk about dym,s as "not real poker") well i,ve got news for you boys,it is,and it pays, just the same as it does for you!
Can't really quibble with using DYM's at relatively low levels as a means of building a bankroll and can't fault John for the generous advice he gives here. My issues with this thread are: Firstly, once we have our Bankroll upto say £1k, what then? I suspect games either become super tough at higher levels or there just isn't enough liquidity to keep playing the volume we need to sustain our progress. I have not really researched this and correct me if I'm wrong, but don't think these games really exist on the larger sites (or if they did the same issues as above would apply) Secondly, you only need to look at Sharkscope to see how disproportionately the site wins due to rake versus what even a decent winning player can make out of these games. Thirdly, maybe most importantly, as we build our bankroll we are picking up very few useful poker skills/experience that will transfer to other types of game. I have moved back to cash now as i found it difficult to put in the volume required and remain interested in DYM's - PS this is not just sour grapes... I do think John's advice is a great way to build a modest bankroll Posted by simonnatur
Hi simonnatur,
Good post and hats off to you for voicing your opinions. I will just offer some of my own opinions on the points you have raised.
First of all, what happens when we reach £1k? Well the simple answer is, of course, you do what you want with it. Some people might simply want to withdraw it and put it towards a holiday and then rinse repeat. If you want a poker bankroll, though, and have built it up for that reason (more likely I would suspect and certainly the reason I have done it) then you still have options to do whatever you want. When I originally did this I spun £60 upto £1k and then just kept going. I got it upto about £3.5k and that put me in a position to earn around £1,850 C4P a month. Others will want to do other things, as I myself might do this time. I have other ambitions in poker outside of grinding DYMs like wanting to play the big MTTs, all SPTs, all vegas qualifiers etc etc. I suspect DYMs will still play a large part in building/maintaining my roll for these.
With regards to the games becoming super tough, of course they do to a certain extent. There are still weaker players at all levels, though, and I think that, with a bit of table selection, you'll always be able to find decent games. I have been table selecting a fair bit already in the £22s which has helped a lot I think. With the liquidity as well, I think the volume of games running has dropped slightly, 1267 would be a good person to ask on this I'm sure I've seen him say that it has. I still think there's plenty enough there to be going at, though. Finally I believe you are correct in saying that DYMs don't exist on larger sites, I only play on Sky to be honest.
Your second point about the site making a large amount of money from DYMs is probably true. But then I don't think that's a reason for winning players to be worried. The site is entitled to make it's money in my opinion. My own SS graph is very unimpressive but I think if you looked at some of the bigger names like Nutter's or 1267's they'd be more impressive. Either way, you have to factor in C4P, which doesn't show on SS (or maybe there's a way it does, I wouldn't know?). I certainly wouldn't mind breaking even month after month in DYMs if it earnt me rakeback equivalent to a 'proper job'.
Your third point is more or less bang on and is an excellent point. While you can improve your 'proper poker' game slightly, you're right that there isn't too much you can do, you must play the format correctly. So playing DYMs could, in a way, hold your game back. Each player must decide if, for them, building a decent BR relatively straightforwardly, outweighs that consideration.
Finally, thanks again for your post, I thought it was a very interesting one and I wish you the very best of luck in your cash journey. Kind regards, JC.
well done JC, now your playing at your normal level I am sure you will cruise the next half
DYM’s imo only improve your SAT and end of MTT play were stacks are shallow
DYM ‘s teach you nothing about deep stack poker
I have given them a break for while as they are really starting to annoy me, maybe it’s just variance or I am playing badly – either way I may give them another shot just to get to the £5 level once I feel I actually want to
The thing is, I should be able to beat the £3 level I am playing after breezing through £1 & £2 levels, but I can’t :S
Question to JC/Deveonfish anyone else that cares to answer
If we play DYM’s with a tight strategy and we get no cards, we are forced into a 60/40 shove fest near or at the bubble. Are we happy with this and even though we open our range as the blind levels increase if we still run card dead are we just happy to be near or at the bubble shoving any 2 and hope for a 60/40.
Are we just 100% risk averse and preserving our equity for as long as possible until we:
a)get a premium hand or slightly below prem hand when blind rise and your stack is relatively shallow
b)forced into shoving because we are very short and we simply can not fold
Are we essentially playing for a double up and then stick not twist
well done JC, now your playing at your normal level I am sure you will cruise the next half DYM’s imo only improve your SAT and end of MTT play were stacks are shallow DYM ‘s teach you nothing about deep stack poker I have given them a break for while as they are really starting to annoy me, maybe it’s just variance or I am playing badly – either way I may give them another shot just to get to the £5 level once I feel I actually want to The thing is, I should be able to beat the £3 level I am playing after breezing through £1 & £2 levels, but I can’t :S Question to JC/Deveonfish anyone else that cares to answer If we play DYM’s with a tight strategy and we get no cards, we are forced into a 60/40 shove fest near or at the bubble. Are we happy with this and even though we open our range as the blind levels increase if we still run card dead are we just happy to be near or at the bubble shoving any 2 and hope for a 60/40. Are we just 100% risk averse and preserving our equity for as long as possible until we: a) get a premium hand or slightly below prem hand when blind rise and your stack is relatively shallow b) forced into shoving because we are very short and we simply can not fold Are we essentially playing for a double up and then stick not twist All the best Posted by rancid
Hi rancid, thanks mate.
With regards to the £3s I'm sure that's just varience mate, it does present itself in really weird ways like this sometimes.
About being card dead, and folding to the shove/fold stages, I definately think we're happy with this, if you really are that card dead. The main thing with DYMs is getting to the bubble and then playing it correctly, simple as that. Fold equity is you're best friend at the end of DYMs and a couple of steals when the blinds are really high will often mean you dodge the 60/40 (40/60 w/e) altogether anyway. Couple this with all those times you're not card dead and you get an early double up or whatever, and I definately think you have a winning proposition.
The other thing I might do, if I have been so card dead I haven't played a single hand, is go for a steal with any two cards. It depends on your opponents/situation etc though.
Hope that makes some sense and addresses what you were actually asking, if not please give me a shout.
Having read a couple of other blogs on the internet as well as yours, I noticed that the other ones on the internet both mentioned ICM.
As I am only rolled for lower stakes DYM's, I imagine the majority of players at these levels wouldn't know what ICM is, and will happily make mathematically incorrect calls as a result. However, at the higher levels, do the majority of players take this into account, and how much does this effect decisions?
Hi JohnConnor, Having read a couple of other blogs on the internet as well as yours, I noticed that the other ones on the internet both mentioned ICM. As I am only rolled for lower stakes DYM's, I imagine the majority of players at these levels wouldn't know what ICM is, and will happily make mathematically incorrect calls as a result. However, at the higher levels, do the majority of players take this into account, and how much does this effect decisions? Posted by EvilPingu
ICM is law
Google this
"ICMIZER"
Math’s based so does not cater for in game dynamics
Very good as a post game analysis tool, but remember garbage in, garbage out
In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : ICM is law Google this "ICMIZER" Math’s based so does not cater for in game dynamics Very good as a post game analysis tool, but remember garbage in, garbage out Posted by rancid
hi rancid, got to agree with jc, regarding beating the £3.30 level, think you probably got it in your mind a bit too. if anything i would be playing even more games as you know u r a decent player, playing less decreases your chance of winning imo.
i know u enjoy your cash games and nothing wrong with mixing it up, as 4 myself,i deffo prefer dym as it is so much more clear cut, u know what u r going 2 win/lose each game, u r 50/50 at worst every game, and u don,t even have 2 win,as u get paid coming 3rd.
it doesn,t get much better than that 4 me!
on the other hand, playing cash. to win, u gotta beat 5 guy,s probably all playing diferently, so gotta figure that out, even getting your money in good, there,s no guarantee u will win then there,s the blinds 2 pay,every 6 hands, the rake 2 pay on each bet, the dreaded river card 2 miss when winning the dreaded river card 2 hit when behind, . i could go on,but sure you,re getting the picture. "just my opinion",anyway.
i know u will figure it out, as i have, for the moment,at least.
Comments
Very pleasing little session tonight:
Played 11 £22s W 8 L 3
Played 9 £11s W 7 L 2
Played 1 £16.50 W 1
Bankroll - £628.02
Poker points - 2,145
Whisper it but I think this is the highest my bankroll has been since beginning this challenge. It's always nice to be on a high and still have a weekend day (ie good games ) to come. Can almost smell the £33s... Probably just jinxed everything :-)
keep it going
devon
Played 3 £11s L 3
Played 2 £16.50s W 2
Played 1 £22 W 1
Bankroll - £640.02
Played 11 £11s W 2 L 9
Played 4 £22s W 2 L 2
Bankroll - £551.02
at the higher levels;
it,s win big,
lose big.
you are still doing well though,
keep going.
not playing as much myself,
but came 3rd in f/football free roll y/day
won £25
and got c4p today £15
so over the $400 barrier 4 the 1st time,
so still very pleased with the way it,s heading;
balance £416.67
nite all
devon
won 10 lost 7
won £3.90
bankroll £420.57
£500 target getting that bit closer
devon
Better (if small) session for me tonight:
Played 6 £11s W 5 L 1
Played 2 £16.50s W 1 L 1
Played 4 £22s W 3 L 1
Bankroll - £614.02
Poker points - 2,585 (which means that if the month was to end now I would be benefiting under the new regime)
Having read thread for a while although i was pretty sure you,d have advanced since last time - I,m sure you,ll keep on the up and up
Paul
Can't really quibble with using DYM's at relatively low levels as a means of building a bankroll and can't fault John for the generous advice he gives here.
My issues with this thread are:
Firstly, once we have our Bankroll upto say £1k, what then? I suspect games either become super tough at higher levels or there just isn't enough liquidity to keep playing the volume we need to sustain our progress.
I have not really researched this and correct me if I'm wrong, but don't think these games really exist on the larger sites (or if they did the same issues as above would apply)
Secondly, you only need to look at Sharkscope to see how disproportionately the site wins due to rake versus what even a decent winning player can make out of these games.
Thirdly, maybe most importantly, as we build our bankroll we are picking up very few useful poker skills/experience that will transfer to other types of game.
I have moved back to cash now as i found it difficult to put in the volume required and remain interested in DYM's - PS this is not just sour grapes... I do think John's advice is a great way to build a modest bankroll
about time....lol
hi simonnatur,
some interesting thoughts.
i have been playing dym,s for about 7 weeks now,
after coming across jc,s brilliant post,by accident i might add.
and am i soooooo glad i did.
played afew micro,s to test the water,
won at all levels.
now playing @ £3.30
won £210 b/roll at £420.57
so once i get to just over £500
asuming i can keep on winning,
will probably/almost definately,
move up to £5.50,s.
regarding your point on what happens
when we get our b/roll up to 1k
i think we just keep on playing more of the same,don,t we?,
if you can get to 1k,then surely just carry on
untill you get to 2k,
although,i know what u mean.(LET U KNOW WHEN I GET THERE......lol)
regarding how much the site wins
of course they win,as it,s there business to win,
they win on every type of game.
don,t think they have taken anything from me though,
for the past 7 weeks,
(sure have made up for that playing cash)
as you say,as we are building our b/roll,
i think we probably are picking up some usefull skills
along the way,
although i,m sure alot of cash players would disagree with that,
(as some talk about dym,s as "not real poker")
well i,ve got news for you boys,it is,and it pays,
just the same as it does for you!
anyway,
i,ve had my say,
good luck with the cash,simonnatur
best wishes,
devon
Good post and hats off to you for voicing your opinions. I will just offer some of my own opinions on the points you have raised.
First of all, what happens when we reach £1k? Well the simple answer is, of course, you do what you want with it. Some people might simply want to withdraw it and put it towards a holiday and then rinse repeat. If you want a poker bankroll, though, and have built it up for that reason (more likely I would suspect and certainly the reason I have done it) then you still have options to do whatever you want. When I originally did this I spun £60 upto £1k and then just kept going. I got it upto about £3.5k and that put me in a position to earn around £1,850 C4P a month. Others will want to do other things, as I myself might do this time. I have other ambitions in poker outside of grinding DYMs like wanting to play the big MTTs, all SPTs, all vegas qualifiers etc etc. I suspect DYMs will still play a large part in building/maintaining my roll for these.
With regards to the games becoming super tough, of course they do to a certain extent. There are still weaker players at all levels, though, and I think that, with a bit of table selection, you'll always be able to find decent games. I have been table selecting a fair bit already in the £22s which has helped a lot I think. With the liquidity as well, I think the volume of games running has dropped slightly, 1267 would be a good person to ask on this I'm sure I've seen him say that it has. I still think there's plenty enough there to be going at, though. Finally I believe you are correct in saying that DYMs don't exist on larger sites, I only play on Sky to be honest.
Your second point about the site making a large amount of money from DYMs is probably true. But then I don't think that's a reason for winning players to be worried. The site is entitled to make it's money in my opinion. My own SS graph is very unimpressive but I think if you looked at some of the bigger names like Nutter's or 1267's they'd be more impressive. Either way, you have to factor in C4P, which doesn't show on SS (or maybe there's a way it does, I wouldn't know?). I certainly wouldn't mind breaking even month after month in DYMs if it earnt me rakeback equivalent to a 'proper job'.
Your third point is more or less bang on and is an excellent point. While you can improve your 'proper poker' game slightly, you're right that there isn't too much you can do, you must play the format correctly. So playing DYMs could, in a way, hold your game back. Each player must decide if, for them, building a decent BR relatively straightforwardly, outweighs that consideration.
Finally, thanks again for your post, I thought it was a very interesting one and I wish you the very best of luck in your cash journey. Kind regards, JC.
well done JC, now your playing at your normal level I am sure you will cruise the next half
DYM’s imo only improve your SAT and end of MTT play were stacks are shallow
DYM ‘s teach you nothing about deep stack poker
I have given them a break for while as they are really starting to annoy me, maybe it’s just variance or I am playing badly – either way I may give them another shot just to get to the £5 level once I feel I actually want to
The thing is, I should be able to beat the £3 level I am playing after breezing through £1 & £2 levels, but I can’t :S
Question to JC/Deveonfish anyone else that cares to answer
If we play DYM’s with a tight strategy and we get no cards, we are forced into a 60/40 shove fest near or at the bubble. Are we happy with this and even though we open our range as the blind levels increase if we still run card dead are we just happy to be near or at the bubble shoving any 2 and hope for a 60/40.
Are we just 100% risk averse and preserving our equity for as long as possible until we:
a) get a premium hand or slightly below prem hand when blind rise and your stack is relatively shallow
b) forced into shoving because we are very short and we simply can not fold
Are we essentially playing for a double up and then stick not twist
All the best
With regards to the £3s I'm sure that's just varience mate, it does present itself in really weird ways like this sometimes.
About being card dead, and folding to the shove/fold stages, I definately think we're happy with this, if you really are that card dead. The main thing with DYMs is getting to the bubble and then playing it correctly, simple as that. Fold equity is you're best friend at the end of DYMs and a couple of steals when the blinds are really high will often mean you dodge the 60/40 (40/60 w/e) altogether anyway. Couple this with all those times you're not card dead and you get an early double up or whatever, and I definately think you have a winning proposition.
The other thing I might do, if I have been so card dead I haven't played a single hand, is go for a steal with any two cards. It depends on your opponents/situation etc though.
Hope that makes some sense and addresses what you were actually asking, if not please give me a shout.
Played 5 £11s W 3 L 2
Played 4 £22 W 3 L 1
Bankroll - £650.02
£10 away from the £33s so hopefully I'll get to play a few of those later today, fingers crossed.
Having read a couple of other blogs on the internet as well as yours, I noticed that the other ones on the internet both mentioned ICM.
Google this
"ICMIZER"
Math’s based so does not cater for in game dynamics
Very good as a post game analysis tool, but remember garbage in, garbage out
got to agree with jc,
regarding beating the £3.30 level,
think you probably got it in your mind a bit too.
if anything i would be playing even more games
as you know u r a decent player,
playing less decreases your chance of winning imo.
i know u enjoy your cash games
and nothing wrong with mixing it up,
as 4 myself,i deffo prefer dym as it is so much more clear cut,
u know what u r going 2 win/lose each game,
u r 50/50 at worst every game,
and u don,t even have 2 win,as u get paid coming 3rd.
it doesn,t get much better than that 4 me!
on the other hand,
playing cash.
to win,
u gotta beat 5 guy,s
probably all playing diferently,
so gotta figure that out,
even getting your money in good,
there,s no guarantee u will win
then there,s the blinds 2 pay,every 6 hands,
the rake 2 pay on each bet,
the dreaded river card 2 miss when winning
the dreaded river card 2 hit when behind,
.
i could go on,but sure you,re getting the picture.
"just my opinion",anyway.
i know u will figure it out,
as i have,
for the moment,at least.
best of luck,
devon