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ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR

Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 153,741
edited December 2021 in Strategy

I have just Posted a Blog by John Connor, the thread title says it all.

This chap does very welll indeed at DYM's (those who know how to check these things will know that) & he's shared his thoughts with us, which is very kind of him.

It's quite a long piece, but it's as good as I've seen, & if you cannot improve at least ONE aspect of your DYM play from reading it, well you are not reading it properly.

Johgn is happy to take questions, feedback, & constructive criticism, but most of all, he's a winning DYM player, & wants to share his knowledge with the rest of us.

So, Post any questions you have for him on this thread, please. I've asked that the "Comment" section of the Blog be restricted to "thanks John" type comments, NOT questions about it. By keeping all the questions & answers in one place - on this Thread - we will all yield greater benefit.

On behalf of Sky Poker, & our players, or at least, those who want to improve their game, our sincere thanks, it's a monumental effort.

The Blog is HERE
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Comments

  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 153,741
    edited February 2014

    My "starter" question for John.

    Raise sizes.

    The current fashion is for much smaller raise sizes, but I happen to agree with you, different size Raises are needed for different situations, skillsets, buy-in levels, & stages of the DYM. 

    The hard-cases & snarlers, maybe some of the more erudite players, too,  are going to slate you for your raise sizes, because the current fashion is for smaller Raises.

    How would you counter that argument?
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited February 2014
    I really enjoyed reading that JC, thanks so much for your efforts.

    my query is about "squeeze plays"

    when i grinded dyms for 3 months (£3.30 to £11) i think i got into alot of trouble trying to pick up the dead money squeezing with air, which probably affected my overall profits.

    When there was 1 or more limper, it was very tempting to go all in and hoping for folds. Would you recommend this strategy, or should i have resisted the temptation, because often they limp called with things like Q8, and i was sometimes behind!!! :)

    Also How do you combat "limp callers" in general?

    EDIT.. one more question regarding limpers do you often try to take it away post flop when there is enough play, because i found that if i was in the BB, they like limping and then min betting any flop!! very frustrating and hard to play against
  • JohnConnorJohnConnor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    My "starter" question for John. Raise sizes. The current fashion is for much smaller raise sizes, but I happen to agree with you, different size Raises are needed for different situations, skillsets, buy-in levels, & stages of the DYM.  The hard-cases & snarlers, maybe some of the more erudite players, too,  are going to slate you for your raise sizes, because the current fashion is for smaller Raises. How would you counter that argument?
    Posted by Tikay10
    Hi Tikay,

    You're of course right, some will slate my raise sizes for being on the large size. As stated in the blog this is one area that I would encourage players to experiment with. 

    Personally I raise on the larger size to give the raise more chance of getting through, which is usually my primary goal, of course. I found that smaller (2.5x) raises were not as effective at doing this and the 3x raises, I would say, are most effective upto the £11 DYM level or against weaker fields in general.

    In tough fields, and if you rail a high stakes DYM, you will see that some of the best players continually raise funny amounts in the 2.2x kind of range. I would certainly not recomend against this against strong fields.

    That's the argument, really, raising more gives you a higher success rate, but raising less means your success rate doesn't have to be so high in the first place. It's really about finding a balance. I find that the balance tends to come down on the higher side against weaker fields and the lower side against stronger ones.

    Two footnotes to the above:

    1) While raising bigger pre-flop creates a larger pot (undesired), this is not such a big problem in DYMs as it may be in, say, an MTT. This is because, as I have alluded to in the blog, DYM stacks are shallow and you're largely 'playing the hand to the end' or not on the flop.

    2) I think it's interesting that some of the more modern players (who advocate raising 2.2x to steal), actually advocate raising 3x when in the small blind to negate the positional disadvantage (ie to give them more chance of taking down the pot pre-flop). This is the same reason my raises are on the large size, to discourage action.
  • JohnConnorJohnConnor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    I really enjoyed reading that JC, thanks so much for your efforts. my query is about "squeeze plays" when i grinded dyms for 3 months (£3.30 to £11) i think i got into alot of trouble trying to pick up the dead money squeezing with air, which probably affected my overall profits. When there was 1 or more limper, it was very tempting to go all in and hoping for folds. Would you recommend this strategy, or should i have resisted the temptation, because often they limp called with things like Q8, and i was sometimes behind!!! :) Also How do you combat limp callers in general?
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    Hi Greg, thanks.

    I definately think there's a place for squeezes like this and it's one of my favourite plays to be honest. You have to pick your opponents, though, obviously. Sometimes it won't be possible as you'll have no reads etc. But, if you can, try and look out for the HBL's as I (following Moshman) note people. Before you put an "HBL" note on someone make sure you have seen them limp/fold a couple of times first, to be sure (in one game it may be hard, but over months of playing with the same faces, these traits become really easy to pick up). Then, the best spots are when one "HBL" limps in and then the small blind makes up. This is going to be such a high percentage spot for you to squeeze, and it will usually be (as I'm sure you know) all-in to give yourself maximum leverage.

    Finally, maybe an obvious point but just to be clear, don't try any fancy squeeze plays if the money in the pot simply isn't worth it, wait until the late/mid stages.
  • JohnConnorJohnConnor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited February 2014
    In Response to ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    I have just Posted a Blog by John Connor, the thread title says it all. This chap does very welll indeed at DYM's (those who know how to check these things will know that) & he's shared his thoughts with us, which is very kind of him. It's quite a long piece, but it's as good as I've seen, & if you cannot improve at least ONE aspect of your DYM play from reading it, well you are not reading it properly. Johgn is happy to take questions, feedback, & constructive criticism, but most of all, he's a winning DYM player, & wants to share his knowledge with the rest of us. So, Post any questions you have for him on this thread, please. I've asked that the "Comment" section of the Blog be restricted to "thanks John" type comments, NOT questions about it. By keeping all the questions & answers in one place - on this Thread - we will all yield greater benefit. On behalf of Sky Poker, & our players, or at least, those who want to improve their game, our sincere thanks, it's a monumental effort. The Blog is HERE
    Posted by Tikay10
    Thanks, Tikay. I found it very interesting and quite coincidental to see the excerpt you chose to put in the introduction to the blog. This is because just this morning (I was going to start a thread but held off when I got your email) I decided to start a new challenge to turn a bankroll of under £20 into £1,000. I will use this thread to record progress if anyone is interested.
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,925
    edited February 2014

    Bloggage of the highest order, never in doubt.

    Congrats mate, enjoy all the plaudits that will inevitably come your way!

    My question, maybe going off on a slight tangent, so maybe you can wait until the initial rush of ?'s dies down before answering.....

    As a dym player with 10k+ games behind him, what did you find the biggest challenge when you sacrificed dym time to take a real shot at playing cash? 

    Also, what advice would you give to micro stakes dym'ers who become distressed and frustrated by the rake at their level? 
  • skolsuperskolsuper Member Posts: 4
    edited February 2014
    Ctrl+F, "ICM", not found, close page.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 153,741
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    Ctrl+F, "ICM", not found, close page.
    Posted by skolsupe
    r
    Oh my, a very big Sky Poker welcome to Lord James Keys.

    Post more, Mr K!


    For those of us not quite that far along the road, James, would you like to enlighten us with your thoughts on how ICM helps us in DYM's, please?
  • JohnConnorJohnConnor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    Bloggage of the highest order, never in doubt. Congrats mate, enjoy all the plaudits that will inevitably come your way! My question, maybe going off on a slight tangent, so maybe you can wait until the initial rush of ?'s dies down before answering..... As a dym player with 10k+ games behind him, what did you find the biggest challenge when you sacrificed dym time to take a real shot at playing cash?  Also, what advice would you give to micro stakes dym'ers who become distressed and frustrated by the rake at their level? 
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Hi JJ, thanks mate.

    1) If I understand this question properly (and the highlighted part is the crux of the question) then the answer is undoubtedly Cash4Points. DYMs offer such a great rakeback deal, when compared to the size of your bankroll. I have made 28,000 points a month playing £33 and £55 DYMs with a 'roll I would only have been comfortable playing 50NL with (of course I needed to learn at much lower stakes anyway) so the loss of Cash4Points was huge for me. I'm fairly sure it me a load less hours to eanr those 28,000 points than it would have if I was playing NL50 (possibly even higher I'm not sure?)

    If I miss understood the question and it was more to do with challenges of cash play vs DYM play then just give me a shout :-)

    2) This is a good question because the topic often arises and I always keep out of it. I keep out because the answer is always provided by an authoritative source, anyway. It is (unfortunately??) very unlikely to ever change. Sky is a business, people pay the 20% rates so it will stay. I do feel for them, though, as 20% is pretty high.

    The real, simple, answer though is this. It's there, there's nothing you can do about it, you just have to beat it. You 'only' have to progress to the £3.30 level to get to the 10% rake band. Another option would be saving and  depositing enough to play £3.30s instead. I wouldn't recomend that, though, to be honest, I would recomend advancing up the levels. At the end of the day, if you can't scrape more than a 60% win rate (required to beat 20% rake) in the 30p and 60p DYMs, then you probably can't attain more than a 55% win rate (required to beat 10% rake) in the higher ones.
  • JockBMWJockBMW Member Posts: 2,653
    edited February 2014
    Hi John,

    Brilliant Blog, thanks for sharing your experience.

    What do you do when you accumulate a big stack, say 4000+ chips.  I am often in two minds as to weather I sit back and let the others fight it out, or get involved with Cat 1 hands. 

    Your Thoughts?
  • PiAnOpLaYaPiAnOpLaYa Member Posts: 554
    edited February 2014
    28k points just seen how much rakeback that is!!! £1250 + 25% thats good work!
  • POKERTREVPOKERTREV Member Posts: 9,607
    edited February 2014
    Hi John Conner.
    Thanks for a really great read, which i'm sure will in many ways help my DYM game.

    With reference to "Cooperation Play" and "people betting into dry flops" you go on to say this is a huge mistake unless you are 100% sure to win the hand.

    I have on many occasions been involved in the "Cooperation Play" however, on occasions some players do not cooperate (Entirely their choice) and bet into a dry pot when a player is all-in. So obviously on these occasions we can see that the other player/s are not going to cooperate.

    So here is a bit of a 3 barrel question i'm afraid

    How do we continue our strategy here?
    Should we just keep folding to the small all-in? (at the risk of leaking chips)
    or
    Do we try to play our hands against the uncooporating player/s?

    Thanks
    Pokertrev
  • JohnConnorJohnConnor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited February 2014
    Thanks for the feedback and questions guys, much appreciated. Just got to nip out now but will be back online later this evening to address all of them.
  • skolsuperskolsuper Member Posts: 4
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : Oh my, a very big Sky Poker welcome to Lord James Keys. Post more, Mr K! For those of us not quite that far along the road, James, would you like to enlighten us with your thoughts on how ICM helps us in DYM's, please?
    Posted by Tikay10
    Sorry for trolling tikay but this is what will happen if you insist on posting links on twitter.

    As for DYM strategy, I can't be bothered to go into ICM here, just google it and you'll find many people have explained it better than I ever could, but I will say that writing a DYM strategy article without ICM is like writing a recipe book without timings or quantities for the ingredients. Yeah Jamie Oliver does it but that doesn't make it right.

    I would also like to add that if you're actually interested in playing poker, the strategy, the bluffing and inducing, the battle of wits that is this simple yet infinitely complicated game, then don't play DYMs. Yeah you can build your bankroll from a small investment, but you could also do that by going through rubbish bins. I don't see the appeal personally.
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,925
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : Sorry for trolling tikay but this is what will happen if you insist on posting links on twitter. As for DYM strategy, I can't be bothered to go into ICM here, just google it and you'll find many people have explained it better than I ever could, but I will say that writing a DYM strategy article without ICM is like writing a recipe book without timings or quantities for the ingredients. Yeah Jamie Oliver does it but that doesn't make it right. I would also like to add that if you're actually interested in playing poker, the strategy, the bluffing and inducing, the battle of wits that is this simple yet infinitely complicated game, then don't play DYMs. Yeah you can build your bankroll from a small investment, but you could also do that by going through rubbish bins. I don't see the appeal personally.
    Posted by skolsuper
    Patronising post of the year award.

    Note this 1 on your list Sback & Irishman. 

    The prob with taking the "use rubbish bins to build your bankroll" method, is you get your hands dirty, it's smelly, and you have to put your shoes on to do it.

    I've seen some arrogant posts from players who are supposedly role models to the micro stakers, but this probably tops the lot.


    wp tho.


  • cenachavcenachav Member Posts: 2,673
    edited February 2014
    Loved reading the blog and hope I have improved my dym game reading it. 

    Only one question. 

    Do you think it is more profitable long term to play the normal dym games or their turbo counterparts?
  • splashiessplashies Member Posts: 3,680
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : Patronising post of the year award. Note this 1 on your list Sback & Irishman.  The prob with taking the "use rubbish bins to build your bankroll" method, is you get your hands dirty, it's smelly, and you have to put your shoes on to do it. I've seen some arrogant posts from players who are supposedly role models to the micro stakers, but this probably tops the lot. wp tho.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    + 1 Well said that man.

    A great read JC, very nice job you've done there!

    P.S where you been for last few weeks?
  • ACEGOONERACEGOONER Member Posts: 1,424
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : Sorry for trolling tikay but this is what will happen if you insist on posting links on twitter. As for DYM strategy, I can't be bothered to go into ICM here, just google it and you'll find many people have explained it better than I ever could, but I will say that writing a DYM strategy article without ICM is like writing a recipe book without timings or quantities for the ingredients. Yeah Jamie Oliver does it but that doesn't make it right. I would also like to add that if you're actually interested in playing poker, the strategy, the bluffing and inducing, the battle of wits that is this simple yet infinitely complicated game, then don't play DYMs. Yeah you can build your bankroll from a small investment, but you could also do that by going through rubbish bins. I don't see the appeal personally.
    Posted by skolsuper
    This is a bit below the belt, suggesting that dyms are a waste of time. For a new player learning the basics about table position etc, I would say they are perfect.

    I note that you have only posted once before I wonder what you had to say in your last rant.

    For the record JC plays ridiculous volumes, and no doubt benefits from a significant rakeback from the site.
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : Sorry for trolling tikay but this is what will happen if you insist on posting links on twitter. As for DYM strategy, I can't be bothered to go into ICM here, just google it and you'll find many people have explained it better than I ever could, but I will say that writing a DYM strategy article without ICM is like writing a recipe book without timings or quantities for the ingredients. Yeah Jamie Oliver does it but that doesn't make it right. I would also like to add that if you're actually interested in playing poker, the strategy, the bluffing and inducing, the battle of wits that is this simple yet infinitely complicated game, then don't play DYMs. Yeah you can build your bankroll from a small investment, but you could also do that by going through rubbish bins. I don't see the appeal personally.
    Posted by skolsuper
    this is rather insulting

    especially as JC has spent ages writing a perfectly good DYM blog based on his experiences of crushing this sites dyms. No doubt ICM is a very useful tool at  regular SNG's, but i would question its relevance here.

    EDIT, maybe you would like to read the article properly and add the ICM bit in?
  • skolsuperskolsuper Member Posts: 4
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:
    In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : Patronising post of the year award. Note this 1 on your list Sback & Irishman.  The prob with taking the "use rubbish bins to build your bankroll" method, is you get your hands dirty, it's smelly, and you have to put your shoes on to do it. I've seen some arrogant posts from players who are supposedly role models to the micro stakers, but this probably tops the lot. wp tho.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Wear gloves. HTH
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