Think I like c-betting and firing 3 oppo dependent. So few 8x hands are around maybe UTG+1 is more likely than button to hold an 8 but with 2 out its hard, so we've likely got the over cards and the nut flush draw. I'd be calling a flop raise as a float and hoping he checks behind on turn (assuming we're vs button). We have the strongest range and equity if they don't believe us.
Think I'd go to around 4.5k (just under half) as I think this size controls the pot size a little better, probably then a bit bigger on a missed turn to pressure those mid pairs.
Decent hand this one as sometimes I might also opt to check to attempt to see the turn for free, but then it's hard to keep calling vs button and therefore might opt to raise turn.
Think I like c-betting and firing 3 oppo dependent. So few 8x hands are around maybe UTG+1 is more likely than button to hold an 8 but with 2 out its hard, so we've likely got the over cards and the nut flush draw. I'd be calling a flop raise as a float and hoping he checks behind on turn (assuming we're vs button). We have the strongest range and equity if they don't believe us. Think I'd go to around 4.5k (just under half) as I think this size controls the pot size a little better, probably then a bit bigger on a missed turn to pressure those mid pairs. Decent hand this one as sometimes I might also opt to check to attempt to see the turn for free, but then it's hard to keep calling vs button and therefore might opt to raise turn. So in summary, no idea!! Posted by bbMike
LOL. Thanks Mike. I like the "No idea" bit! :=)
It is a very tricky one, and we are still just on the flop. I'm a bit confused? Are you check/calling the flop? Or betting 4.5K? Lets suppose your 4.5K bet met with a re-raise to 12K, what do you do? (Or is the 4.5k bet you are referring to, a turn/river bet if it goes check/check on earlier streets?)
I rested to bet 4.5k on flop and would call a raise to 12k, though I'd want to know more about the standard/style of the button. I think there is a chance they can check back turn if we take this line, and can comfortably bet for value on river if one of those two cards pairs us or makes our flush. If they bet flop and turn I prefer raising turn though it could be suicide I think it would make it very tough for them.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : Hi Danny, many thanks for your response, much appreciated. Yes it is the "cold caller" that I am most wary off. I think he could have a whole range of pairs. Sometimes people play KK or AA like this, as a cold 4bet looks SO strong. Also we are 180 BB's deep, so whilst I expect most people to fold low pocket pairs, it is possible that he may consider set mining. To me his range, roughly looked like this 22-77 - 15% 88-AA - 65% AK, AQs - 10% Other - 10% I will give a few more people a chance to reply before I discuss the actual flop action. Incidently, what would you do if your flop continuation bet, met with a re-raise? Thanks again for the feedback. G Posted by StayOrGo
I think the cold caller will call one bet a reasonable amount of the time, but with our flush draw we can bet most turns and apply pressure to a lot of his hands. Also if we want to be value betting hands like QQ KK AA it makes sense to have some hands we cbet as bluff. Our ace high as it stands is unlikely good so semi bluffing it down the streets seems like a good option. We have pretty good equity vs most his holdings anyway so betting allows us to build a pot for when we do improve. I would probably be looking to fire 40-50% pot on the flop to keep his calling range wider and put in a slightly chunkier bet on the turn so that the turn bet has more fold equity.
I would be surprised if the flop cbet got reraised by the cold caller, as he shouldn't really have 8x in his hand and 66/88 is really hard to have. I probably just call the raise, as I would with AA if I had it here.
If the earlier position player showed aggression I would be more concerned, as I think he's the most likely to have an 8
A number of factors here make this a very interesting hand a spot I feel a lot of us get into.
Firstly we are representing a very strong range by 3 betting an UTG+1 raise, then you have the rather frustrating fact that the button cold calls your 3 bet with the UTG still to act AND the fact that you will now be OOP and THEN the original raiser calls.
Then there is the flop. Over cards and a the nut FD, usually a dream flop for a 3 bettor. But its a paired board, against two strong percieved ranges and we are OOP to one of them.
Ranging the UTG we can rule out AA and probably KK and AKo variations. He likely has 99-QQ, AKs and maybe AQs. I would also rule out AA for the button (not fully but versus a UTG raise and a player willing to raise that player then AA would like to get it HUs at the least and hopefully even it all in pre against one of you). Same for KK, I cant see button flatting KK and letting 2 opponents in. It strikes as AKs or QQ, maybe JJ.
The point is if we are to bet this flop we know that this is likely going to be a 2 or even 3 barrell situation. If we check and call i dont think we give away the value of our hand as we could easily be doing this with AA,KK so therefore we can try and hit without being blown off our hand, get some information but also set up a situation where we could c/r the turn and look super strong wether we hit or not. If anyone raises or continues after that we can be almost certain we are behind and get away on the river.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : I think the cold caller will call one bet a reasonable amount of the time, but with our flush draw we can bet most turns and apply pressure to a lot of his hands. Also if we want to be value betting hands like QQ KK AA it makes sense to have some hands we cbet as bluff. Our ace high as it stands is unlikely good so semi bluffing it down the streets seems like a good option. We have pretty good equity vs most his holdings anyway so betting allows us to build a pot for when we do improve. I would probably be looking to fire 40-50% pot on the flop to keep his calling range wider and put in a slightly chunkier bet on the turn so that the turn bet has more fold equity. I would be surprised if the flop cbet got reraised by the cold caller, as he shouldn't really have 8x in his hand and 66/88 is really hard to have. I probably just call the raise, as I would with AA if I had it here. If the earlier position player showed aggression I would be more concerned, as I think he's the most likely to have an 8 Posted by FeelGroggy
Thanks for this Danny. your logic is well explained. I think there are lots of viable options here.
However, as I feel fairly certain he has a pocket pair, I decide to check.
Will detail the remaining flop action and the turn card in the next post.
i bet call a reraise here. he may have a house but we playing for a flush and then get it so folding shouldnt be a option unless he shoves then massive decision
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : I think the cold caller will call one bet a reasonable amount of the time, but with our flush draw we can bet most turns and apply pressure to a lot of his hands. Also if we want to be value betting hands like QQ KK AA it makes sense to have some hands we cbet as bluff. Our ace high as it stands is unlikely good so semi bluffing it down the streets seems like a good option. We have pretty good equity vs most his holdings anyway so betting allows us to build a pot for when we do improve. I would probably be looking to fire 40-50% pot on the flop to keep his calling range wider and put in a slightly chunkier bet on the turn so that the turn bet has more fold equity. I would be surprised if the flop cbet got reraised by the cold caller, as he shouldn't really have 8x in his hand and 66/88 is really hard to have. I probably just call the raise, as I would with AA if I had it here. If the earlier position player showed aggression I would be more concerned, as I think he's the most likely to have an 8 Posted by FeelGroggy
Nice one Groggy, that is what I was trying to say!
Really don't see any merit in checking the flop here, we have a tonne of equity against a pretty well defined range (BTN) and can apply pressure on a tonne of turns. I also don't really see how we can win a lot chips by taking this line if we are to improve.
Given the check call on the flop I would be check calling the turn then leading the river. Unless he flopped the house the Kd is a really bad card for him so you might think he checks behind a lot of the mid pairs we think he has, but some oppo might just think they can bully off a range like yours on a paired boarded with 3 suited cards. So as ever it's going to be read dependent. I don't think you'd get much value from check raising this turn, so instead leading river might look weird enough that he pays you off.
A number of factors here make this a very interesting hand a spot I feel a lot of us get into. Firstly we are representing a very strong range by 3 betting an UTG+1 raise, then you have the rather frustrating fact that the button cold calls your 3 bet with the UTG still to act AND the fact that you will now be OOP and THEN the original raiser calls. Then there is the flop. Over cards and a the nut FD, usually a dream flop for a 3 bettor. But its a paired board, against two strong percieved ranges and we are OOP to one of them. Ranging the UTG we can rule out AA and probably KK and AKo variations. He likely has 99-QQ, AKs and maybe AQs. I would also rule out AA for the button (not fully but versus a UTG raise and a player willing to raise that player then AA would like to get it HUs at the least and hopefully even it all in pre against one of you). Same for KK, I cant see button flatting KK and letting 2 opponents in. It strikes as AKs or QQ, maybe JJ. The point is if we are to bet this flop we know that this is likely going to be a 2 or even 3 barrell situation. If we check and call i dont think we give away the value of our hand as we could easily be doing this with AA,KK so therefore we can try and hit without being blown off our hand, get some information but also set up a situation where we could c/r the turn and look super strong wether we hit or not. If anyone raises or continues after that we can be almost certain we are behind and get away on the river.
Cheers for this Craig, it's a good summation of the dilemma. Posted by CraigSG1
OK, we've had a few posts in still referring to the flop play. With Groggy's thoughts of C-betting 40-50% pot and following it up with a bet on most turns being highly supported.
So temporarily back to the flop question.
My "problem" with this, is as follows:
Lets just say that the cold caller (Button) does have an over pair.
He's certainly going to at least call the flop bet, and not knowing what the turn will bring, he may well call the turn too. It is also possible that the UTG+1 may have an over pair too, but not as likely as the Button.
Let say we are fortunate enough for just the Button to have the over pair and that he doesn't have a diamond, and that his overpair is < JJ. That would be a lot of things in our favour as it was.
Lets just say, he has TT (no diamond), if we got it all in now, we'd have 48.69% equity. Generally I like to feel that I have > 50% in these scenarios. The problem for me is the paired board. It gives the TT four outs that counterfeit our flush or over card. And remember this is a potentially favourable scenario.
I am much more comfortable playing this hand aggressively on a non-paired board where our equity against TT would go up to 54.14%. This difference may not seem much but it's significant imo. It is also possible, (but I agree, unlikely) that he already has a full house or quads and that we are virtually/actually drawing dead.
I totally respect Danny and his supporters' opinions here, but I feel the flop play for me, on balance, is a check/call.
Also Danny and I have differing views on playing hands like AJs pre flop, when faced with an open raise. I like to either fold or 3bet and Danny is often happy to call. We still often disagree on these sorts of things.
As I am sure some of you may know. I helped Danny with his game in the early stages (And I am very pleased with how well he has done)
There is an important point here for anyone receiving coaching/mentoring. And also for those giving the advice.
My advice if you are being mentored/coached is as follows:
1) Take it all in with an open mind.
2) Try the advice, see how it works for you.
3) As you improve and develop your own style, use what works for you and ditch what doesn't.
Danny has done this supremely.
It's a bit like when you are a kid. Everything your parents tell you about their perspective on life you deem to be true, because you know no different. However as you grow up, you realise that some of those things you agree with and some you don't. So you develop the good ones, and re-align your opinions of those that don't serve you. Poker coaching should be like this imo, and the coach also should never be so rigid that he enforces his style onto his student.
I helped Danny with the fundamentals, but now he has his own wings, he flies in his own way. And good luck to him! (Same is true in a way with my son Gary, Limp2Lose)
Cheers and GL to all those who are trying to improve their game, and also to those helping them to do so.
Check call the turn i would , pot control , the problem doing this tho it gives oppos chance to house up but my thinking is they could already have the house so keeping losses to a minimin,i am always wary of paired boards.
an opinion of a novice well not a novice but a low stakes player hope you dont mind
OK, we've had a few posts in still referring to the flop play. With Groggy's thoughts of C-betting 40-50% pot and following it up with a bet on most turns being highly supported. So temporarily back to the flop question. My "problem" with this, is as follows: Lets just say that the cold caller (Button) does have an over pair. He's certainly going to at least call the flop bet, and not knowing what the turn will bring, he may well call the turn too. It is also possible that the UTG+1 may have an over pair too, but not as likely as the Button. Let say we are fortunate enough for just the Button to have the over pair and that he doesn't have a diamond, and that his overpair is < JJ. That would be a lot of things in our favour as it was. Lets just say, he has TT (no diamond), if we got it all in now, we'd have 48.69% equity. Generally I like to feel that I have /> 50% in these scenarios. The problem for me is the paired board. It gives the TT four outs that counterfeit our flush or over card. And remember this is a potentially favourable scenario. I am much more comfortable playing this hand aggressively on a non-paired board where our equity against TT would go up to 54.14%. This difference may not seem much but it's significant imo. It is also possible, (but I agree, unlikely) that he already has a full house or quads and that we are virtually/actually drawing dead. I totally respect Danny and his supporters' opinions here, but I feel the flop play for me, on balance, is a check/call. Also Danny and I have differing views on playing hands like AJs pre flop, when faced with an open raise. I like to either fold or 3bet and Danny is often happy to call. We still often disagree on these sorts of things. As I am sure some of you may know. I helped Danny with his game in the early stages (And I am very pleased with how well he has done) There is an important point here for anyone receiving coaching/mentoring. And also for those giving the advice. My advice if you are being mentored/coached is as follows: 1) Take it all in with an open mind. 2) Try the advice, see how it works for you. 3) As you improve and develop your own style, use what works for you and ditch what doesn't. Danny has done this supremely. It's a bit like when you are a kid. Everything your parents tell you about their perspective on life you deem to be true, because you know no different. However as you grow up, you realise that some of those things you agree with and some you don't. So you develop the good ones, and re-align your opinions of those that don't serve you. Poker coaching should be like this imo, and the coach also should never be so rigid that he enforces his style onto his student. I helped Danny with the fundamentals, but now he has his own wings, he flies in his own way. And good luck to him! (Same is true in a way with my son Gary, Limp2Lose) Cheers and GL to all those who are trying to improve their game, and also to those helping them to do so. G Posted by StayOrGo
:-)
i think the beauty of poker is that there's so much that's open to interpretation
When we hit the flush I actually quite like a smallish donk lead. I think if we consider his range he has a lot of weak SD value hands as opposed to air which he'll keep betting with. He could also percieve a smallish lead as a blocker bet. I would also be looking to bet the river as well. If we get raised I'd just call and then check call river
This is why i would bet the 2 streets in my earlier post-my betting suggests good overpair rather than the flush. hope to get action from weaker flushes etc
Comments
Will detail the remaining flop action and the turn card in the next post.
Blinds 250/500 Antie 75
Cheers,
G
Posted by CraigSG1