It's funny, when this topic came up before there were also some successful regs who also posted with points (similar to mine) against playing the DYMs - they all got personally attacked as well, told they knew nothing etc etc......it isn't only my view.
Huffy, - you suggest I stop stating facts about game formats/returns/rake that are essentially true, on a post that asked a question directly related to those said facts? Ok, I'll stop that when you stop telling other people to stop posting, or telling them they are wrong constantly...doubt you could manage that.
My contribution has been to request that we don't keep making figures up or plucking them out of thin air.
Stick to the facts & you can debate it all day without input from me. I do, however, believe that if players wish to play DYM's - or Cash, or MTT's, or regular SNG's - that's their right & choice, they don't have to defend it, & we should not bandy around inaccurate facts about them.
It's funny, when this topic came up before there were also some successful regs who also posted with points (similar to mine) against playing the DYMs - they all got personally attacked as well, told they knew nothing etc etc......it isn't only my view. Huffy, - you suggest I stop stating facts about game formats/returns/rake that are essentially true, on a post that asked a question directly related to those said facts? Ok, I'll stop that when you stop telling other people to stop posting, or telling them they are wrong constantly...doubt you could manage that. Posted by swanstu
In Response to Re: DYM's : I don't care - nor does Sky Poker - whether players play SNG's, DYM's, MTT's or Cash. Makes no difference, just so long as they play here. I'm not going to allow airy-fairy figures to be repeatedly plucked out of the air without defending &/or rebutting them though. Can I ask that we stick to the facts please. Posted by Tikay10
I gave you some facts earlier (5.50 buyins, 4.50 winnings, how that affects returns and long run expectations, large groups of players on sharkscope etc) - but they were ignored.
If we're not allowed to make airy-fairy claims can you also apply that to the claims from others on this posting (from extremely small samples of players which ignore the above stats) that these are good formats, beatable, profitable? (or is it only stats that go against DYMs that should not be discussed)?
These debates are important for players, especially new players coming to the game, and especially those who want to take it seriously.
In Response to Re: DYM's : What facts have you stated? Posted by hhyftrftdr
Funny, you asked me to stop repeating, but then ask me to repeat what I posted, lol, so here you go:
If you win 50% of your DYM games (average player) you lose a lot of money if you play a lot of games (e.g. £5 level you're losing £1 every 2 games).
Saying that an 'average' player is a more common player (just as there are less of the extreme sharks or fish playing) there are a lot of them out there, all doing that. I'd say a 'vast majority' is a pretty fair description in that case.
Even if you do get a little better, further up the ladder of skill, you may still be losing in these games (just slightly less). That also adds to this majority, and then you finally reach the breakeven ones. If you make it to that small pool of mates circling around together with sharky fins then great, but don't bank on it.
I would also add the 'fact' (as you wanted me to repeat it only) that DYMs have a large element of shove/call/fold which impacts on how much control you have on returns.
Please note, I only posted these again because you asked me to, enjoy.
If you want to compare one format to another you need to try find close to an equivalent comparison as you can. It becomes biased if you compare turbo DYMs to deepstack cash games as they aren't the equivalent versions of there respective formats.
In Response to Re: DYM's : Funny, you asked me to stop repeating, but then ask me to repeat what I posted, lol, so here you go: If you win 50% of your DYM games (average player) you lose a lot of money if you play a lot of games (e.g. £5 level you're losing £1 every 2 games). Saying that an 'average' player is a more common player (just as there are less of the extreme sharks or fish playing) there are a lot of them out there, all doing that. I'd say a 'vast majority' is a pretty fair description in that case. Even if you do get a little better, further up the ladder of skill, you may still be losing in these games (just slightly less). That also adds to this majority, and then you finally reach the breakeven ones. If you make it to that small pool of mates circling around together with sharky fins then great, but don't bank on it. I would also add the 'fact' (as you wanted me to repeat it only) that DYMs have a large element of shove/call/fold which impacts on how much control you have on returns. Please note, I only posted these again because you asked me to, enjoy. Posted by swanstu
Not really seeing many facts amongst all that. Opinion yes, facts no.
The only fact you put is that if you win 50% of your games, then you're losing due to rake. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? All games on Sky are raked, DYMs are raked just the same as every other format.
The solution is, of course, to win more than 50% of your games. To do that you might need to put some study time in your schedule, or put the hours in at the tables. Thats why the people who win in that format on this site earn it. Of course they are beatable but like everything in life, its not handed to you on a plate.
There will be plenty of people who break even and are content about that; they get their poker fix, and it doesn't cost them much in the long run.
Aside from all that, I'm struggling to see what your point is or what point you're trying to make? You don't like DYMs, we all know that, bit weird that you spend so much time trying to downplay them.
In Response to Re: DYM's : Not really seeing many facts amongst all that. Opinion yes, facts no. The only fact you put is that if you win 50% of your games, then you're losing due to rake. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? All games on Sky are raked, DYMs are raked just the same as every other format. Posted by hhyftrftdr
So the entry fees and payouts aren't facts?? - ok, so essentially you would deny even obvious facts (even TK would allow me those facts, )
They're not actually raked identically, if you look at different payout structures or cash rake, potential returns/profit make them a different trade-off in terms of rake. But the point about rake is also in combination with the game structure/features. Combine the two and 'Bingo' (quite literally in many turbo DYMs, lol)
As a player I find all formats interesting to debate, but these specifically as they are a dominant sng format on here - why would I not be interested given that, I play here (though not these any more), and I'd actually prefer people moving across to other games personally to give more action elsewhere (yes, I know that's a personal reason but you asked why I should have any interest, there's an answer).
Out of interest, do you play DYMs (primarily) Matt? I find the format so limited, especially when blinds increase rapidly (turbos) - surely playing in shove/fold/call games is hardly a good 'development' format for any player's poker game? Cash can be far more subtle across a session in comparison and many more aspects to the game involved. I know DYMs aren't only shove/call/fold but a large part of them at the key part of the game are. Posted by swanstu
I rarely play DYMs and hardly ever play cash. I am good at MTTs and it was the format I enjoyed when I first started playing and seemed to have a natural talent for them so chose that as my format.
People play poker for different reasons, some like the challenge, some play for fun, some for money.
If someone said they want to be the best poker player in the world and they were only going to play DYMs then everyone would say they are wrong but when we dont know why people are playing the game we cant judge their game format to be good, bad or indifferent.
In Response to Re: DYM's : So the entry fees and payouts aren't facts?? - ok, so essentially you would deny even obvious facts (even TK would allow me those facts, ) They're not actually raked identically, if you look at different payout structures or cash rake, potential returns/profit make them a different trade-off in terms of rake. But the point about rake is also in combination with the game structure/features. Combine the two and 'Bingo' (quite literally in many turbo DYMs, lol) As a player I find all formats interesting to debate, but these specifically as they are a dominant sng format on here - why would I not be interested given that, I play here (though not these any more), and I'd actually prefer people moving across to other games personally to give more action elsewhere (yes, I know that's a personal reason but you asked why I should have any interest, there's an answer). Posted by swanstu
I covered that with this....''The only fact you put is that if you win 50% of your games, then you're losing due to rake''
Many people work round this by being A) good at the game and Volume.
I still don't understand what point it is you're trying to make? Yet again you've had various things pointed out to you and yet again you're talking tripe. Rinse and repeat from the last thread, and inevitably the next thread too.
There is a good point in here Stu-it is a shame that your combative style is getting in the way.
The rake is very high on DYMs-i cannot for the life of me understand why £5.50 DYMs are much more popular than the £5.25 SNGs, which have half the rake. If the roles were reversed, I'm sure the rake on DYMs would be reduced to levels that are more beatable for many more players...
In Response to Re: DYM's : I covered that with this....''The only fact you put is that if you win 50% of your games, then you're losing due to rake'' Many people work round this by being A) good at the game and Volume. I still don't understand what point it is you're trying to make? Yet again you've had various things pointed out to you and yet again you're talking tripe. Rinse and repeat from the last thread, and inevitably the next thread too. Posted by hhyftrftdr
So you ignored the long term effects of rake with such a limited payout structure then - I already explained that was why they were different from rake in other formats.
You also continue to deny that there's a large aspect of shove/call/fold play in turbo DYMs, which is frankly laughable - play 50 of them and see how many go there...many.
Your points for being 'good at the game' and 'volume' surely fall into TKs category of 'vague claims' as an argument in favour?? But vague claims/figures seem to be allowed when we're supporting the DYM brigade I can see.
There's so many arguments already given its wierd you can't read/understand them. And all of these points haven't even added in the other factor that I've met a number of players who were 'friendly' with each other - the other huge elephant in the room for these formats - why on earth would I want all of those issues to consider when choosing a game format, when most of them can be removed/reduced by simply going to a cash game?
There is a good point in here Stu-it is a shame that your combative style is getting in the way. The rake is very high on DYMs-i cannot for the life of me understand why £5.50 DYMs are much more popular than the £5.25 SNGs, which have half the rake. If the roles were reversed, I'm sure the rake on DYMs would be reduced to levels that are more beatable for many more players... Posted by Essexphil
Thanks rainman - sorry if it comes across that way, not meant to be - but I find there is plenty combative style in those posting to support 'their game' on here! I post vehemently at times, when I truly believe in something.
In Response to Re: DYM's : Thanks rainman - sorry if it comes across that way, not meant to be - but I find there is plenty combative style in those posting to support 'their game' on here! I post vehemently at times, when I truly believe in something. Posted by swanstu
In Response to Re: DYM's : So you ignored the long term effects of rake with such a limited payout structure then - I already explained that was why they were different from rake in other formats. You also continue to deny that there's a large aspect of shove/call/fold play in turbo DYMs, which is frankly laughable - play 50 of them and see how many go there...many. Your points for being 'good at the game' and 'volume' surely fall into TKs category of 'vague claims' as an argument in favour?? But vague claims/figures seem to be allowed when we're supporting the DYM brigade I can see. There's so many arguments already given its wierd you can't read/understand them. And all of these points haven't even added in the other factor that I've met a number of players who were 'friendly' with each other - the other huge elephant in the room for these formats - why on earth would I want all of those issues to consider when choosing a game format, when most of them can be removed/reduced by simply going to a cash game? Posted by swanstu
Go play cash games then, or am I missing something?
In Response to Re: DYM's : Go play cash games then, or am I missing something? Posted by hhyftrftdr
Yep, you are missing the fact that this is a 'forum', somewhere you find postings and discussion/opinions. If you don't like mine that's fine, but I don't think your own opinions posted in this thread have added much to change my mind, mostly as they are about me and my postings rather than the topic in question.
Can I actually point out I didn't start this post, it was from a player obviously struggling with DYMs. I'm sure there's plenty others doing the same, and maybe reading here. I have given my advice to that poster (and others interested in poker formats) for these type of games and, thanks in part to questioning that comes back when you do so on here, in some detail!
Not sure if you're still playing these OP, but would be interested to know your thoughts.
Comments
My contribution has been to request that we don't keep making figures up or plucking them out of thin air.
Stick to the facts & you can debate it all day without input from me. I do, however, believe that if players wish to play DYM's - or Cash, or MTT's, or regular SNG's - that's their right & choice, they don't have to defend it, & we should not bandy around inaccurate facts about them.
The rake is very high on DYMs-i cannot for the life of me understand why £5.50 DYMs are much more popular than the £5.25 SNGs, which have half the rake. If the roles were reversed, I'm sure the rake on DYMs would be reduced to levels that are more beatable for many more players...