Stu I think you run into hostility here because you are so dismissive of thr format labelling it as highly luck based and likening it to Russian Roulettes. That is quite offensive to winning players who have worked hard on their games and play to become winning players over many years. You also talk about the format having a high degree of push/shove/fold play, there's a big degree of skill, knowledge and experience involved in honing these decisions. In fact I'd go as far to say that is where the vast majority of dym players fail because they lack this knowledge and skill.
Someone else mentioned, think it was pingu, that dym's would not be advisable for a newbie to start with. I'd actual argue the opposite and dym's are a great place to start. The majority of rec players are too loose and too passive in their general play, a decent grounding in dym's should teach recs to play tighter ranges in general, improve their short stack play and should improve their shove/call ranges for those later stages in mtt's. Obviously to be successful in mtts you need to develop your knowledge and skill to be able to play flops and the down the streets etc and adjust those call/fold ranges but I think DYM's would give many recs a decent foundation on which to build on.
Stu I think you run into hostility here because you are so dismissive of thr format labelling it as highly luck based and likening it to Russian Roulettes. That is quite offensive to winning players who have worked hard on their games and play to become winning players over many years. You also talk about the format having a high degree of push/shove/fold play, there's a big degree of skill, knowledge and experience involved in honing these decisions. In fact I'd go as far to say that is where the vast majority of dym players fail because they lack this knowledge and skill. Posted by jdsallstar
There is skill in shove/call/fold - but there is also undeniably a loss of skill once the button's pressed, and variance kicks in. You can't decide the cards at that point (otherwise we'd argue RRs are skill games too).
For some pros perhaps they can ride that sufficiently well, for an average player it's worse than hopeless - as I said this is a point that has to be linked to rake and payout.
In Response to Re: DYM's : There is skill in shove/call/fold - but there is also undeniably a loss of skill once the button's pressed, and variance kicks in. You can't decide the cards at that point
There's no skill involved once you've pushed the button to shove or fold in cash or MTT poker either. I don't see what these two sentences add to your argument at all.
In Response to Re: DYM's : There is skill in shove/call/fold - but there is also undeniably a loss of skill once the button's pressed, and variance kicks in. You can't decide the cards at that point (otherwise we'd argue RRs are skill games too). For some pros perhaps they can ride that sufficiently well, for an average player it's worse than hopeless - as I said this is a point that has to be linked to rake and payout. Posted by swanstu
"but there is also undeniably a loss of skill once the button's pressed, and variance kicks in. You can't decide the cards at that point"
Is that not exactly the same for every single hand in every single format? You choose the cards to raise fold or call with and click a button....you choose the right cards you win long term choose the wrong ones you lose. Deciding what the next cards are I find difficult in all formats
Swanstu what are you on about?! "but there is also undeniably a loss of skill once the button's pressed, and variance kicks in. You can't decide the cards at that point" Is that not exactly the same for every single hand in every single format? You choose the cards to raise fold or call with and click a button....you choose the right cards you win long term choose the wrong ones you lose. Deciding what the next cards are I find difficult in all formats Posted by jdsallstar
Really need to explain this to you guys?
We were talking (as JD posted about) about pre-flop action all in, of course.
The point is obvious to any poker player surely, there's a big difference being all-in without knowing what cards will come out, and playing through the streets without knowing the cards....?
(I didn't think I'd have to explain that difference here to poker players?) Shove all in trust heavily to luck, play through streets carefully, much less so.
...or in other words, there are far more unknowns/variables left to chance in a pre-flop all in move or call, than there are when playing through the streets, or a later street all-in move/call.
(I'm sure you all knew that, but pretended not to for some reason?)
In Response to Re: DYM's : There is skill in shove/call/fold - but there is also undeniably a loss of skill once the button's pressed, and variance kicks in. You can't decide the cards at that point (otherwise we'd argue RRs are skill games too). For some pros perhaps they can ride that sufficiently well, for an average player it's worse than hopeless - as I said this is a point that has to be linked to rake and payout. Posted by swanstu
This doesnt make sense. We decide the cards we go all in with, that isnt the case in RR. Once we are all in we know the odds of that hand winning long term so while we may experience variance we know long term our win rates.
...or in other words, there are far more unknowns/variables left to chance in a pre-flop all in move or call, than there are when playing through the streets, or a later street all-in move/call. (I'm sure you all knew that, but pretended not to for some reason?) Posted by swanstu
You dont explain yourself properly and then get angry with everyone for not understanding your point.
In Response to Re: DYM's : You dont explain yourself properly and then get angry with everyone for not understanding your point. Posted by MattBates
I wasn't angry, but surprised!
I thought it was pretty clear - I was replying to JDs point (and stated in many previous posts) about pre-flop shove/fold/call play - not sure why that needed 'explaining' any further?
In Response to Re: DYM's : Really need to explain this to you guys? We were talking (as JD posted about) about pre-flop action all in , of course. The point is obvious to any poker player surely, there's a big difference being all-in without knowing what cards will come out, and playing through the streets without knowing the cards....? (I didn't think I'd have to explain that difference here to poker players?) Shove all in trust heavily to luck, play through streets carefully, much less so. Posted by swanstu
Yes playing down the street will reduce the number of variables but you are still in the lap of the gods so to speak as to what cards will fall.
Your thinking that because a lot of the play is fold/shove/call decisions means that the game is impossible to beat unless you're a pro is just plain wrong. I'm no pro, miles from it, but I know if I get my money in as fav before the flop more often than not i'll make money long term. If you look up some scope graphs of winning dym players you'll also notice just how consistent their returns/results are which suggests that skill and not luck is the main factor.
In Response to Re: DYM's : Yes playing down the street will reduce the number of variables but you are still in the lap of the gods so to speak as to what cards will fall. Your thinking that because a lot of the play is fold/shove/call decisions means that the game is impossible to beat unless you're a pro is just plain wrong. I'm no pro, miles from it, but I know if I get my money in as fav before the flop more often than not i'll make money long term. If you look up some scope graphs of winning dym players you'll also notice just how consistent their returns/results are which suggests that skill and not luck is the main factor. Posted by jdsallstar
That's why I said there is some skill in pre-flop play. I guess if you have time to study pre-flop shove/call in all it's elements then you may improve results (possibly even enough to get past the small payouts and rake problems!).
But your reply is a very clever way to avoid the main point: Playing down the streets (vs pre flop shove/call) 'will reduce the number of random variables', should be the sentence you state there. For most, average, players, that amount of variance (combined with rake) is something they won't overcome in the long run.
I've argued in the past for 5% rake drop to increase number of winning players in these games to promote liquidity and make recs' money last longer. They're not unbeatable at 10%, although I would wager that the % of winners in those games is pretty low relative to other formats. Ultimately comes down to how much value you place in things like enjoyment of the game. Posted by EvilPingu
I meant to reply earlier to this post, one of the best replies thank you.
As I mentioned earlier, the OP was clearly interested in returns (not just whether he enjoyed it).
In Response to Re: DYM's : That's why I said there is some skill in pre-flop play. I guess if you have time to study pre-flop shove/call in all it's elements then you may improve results (possibly even enough to get past the small payouts and rake problems!). But your reply is a very clever way to avoid the main point: Playing down the streets (vs pre flop shove/call) 'will reduce the number of random variables', should be the sentence you state there. For most, average, players, that amount of variance (combined with rake) is something they won't overcome in the long run. Posted by swanstu
Do you just dream this stuff up?! My first sentence said "Yes playing down the street will reduce the number of variables"
Comments
In Response to Re: DYM's: Could I get in on this please?.
There's no skill involved once you've pushed the button to shove or fold in cash or MTT poker either. I don't see what these two sentences add to your argument at all.