Would vote for any party who would get beggers of the streets. and that includes big issue sellers.
By addressing their social needs and the points that resulted in them being homeless?
If a party tackled this issue it would encourage me to vote for them too. The creating of more 'real jobs' (not zero hours contracts and sanctions to fudge unemployment figures). There could also be more support to address levels of inequality (which is a massive and broad issue affecting most of us in one way or other).
I could go on but it has been an 11 hour work day and my head is baked. Great to see the discussion is going strong ITT!
Should the ballot paper in the referendum been more comprehensive? Voting Remain was straightforward, as all voters knew what voting Remain meant. However, voting for Brexit wasn't that straightforward, as there are a number of different options. How stupid would Theresa May seem now, walking around saying Brexit means Brexit, when we still don't know what Brexit actually means to the Government. There are a number of different types of Brexits. Some Brexit voters just wanted to leave the EU and opt for WTO rules. Other Brexit voters wanted to leave the EU, but stay in the Single Market, and the Customs Union. Others wanted to leave, but just have a trade deal. There are other choices, but what would have happened if the ballot paper had included these choices instead of just "Leave" So if the Leave voters had voted equally in terms of these 3 options, then around 34% of the leave voters will be unhappy with whatever deal we finally get. Add the 48% that voted Remain and we could end up with 82% unhappy with any deal we get.
When you look back at it all, it's incred really.
People voting for something when in reality they had no idea exactly what they were voting for. Essentially voting in the dark for something that important is beyond absurd.
And that's the crux; it was far too big a decision to go to the public lightly. And it went very lightly, with ridiculous claims written on the side of buses pretty much summing up the referendum.
Should the ballot paper in the referendum been more comprehensive? Voting Remain was straightforward, as all voters knew what voting Remain meant. However, voting for Brexit wasn't that straightforward, as there are a number of different options. How stupid would Theresa May seem now, walking around saying Brexit means Brexit, when we still don't know what Brexit actually means to the Government. There are a number of different types of Brexits. Some Brexit voters just wanted to leave the EU and opt for WTO rules. Other Brexit voters wanted to leave the EU, but stay in the Single Market, and the Customs Union. Others wanted to leave, but just have a trade deal. There are other choices, but what would have happened if the ballot paper had included these choices instead of just "Leave" So if the Leave voters had voted equally in terms of these 3 options, then around 34% of the leave voters will be unhappy with whatever deal we finally get. Add the 48% that voted Remain and we could end up with 82% unhappy with any deal we get.
When you look back at it all, it's incred really.
People voting for something when in reality they had no idea exactly what they were voting for. Essentially voting in the dark for something that important is beyond absurd.
And that's the crux; it was far too big a decision to go to the public lightly. And it went very lightly, with ridiculous claims written on the side of buses pretty much summing up the referendum.
Sigh.
I can only agree. I blame both sides. The Brexit side for their lies, but also the remain for selling it so badly. How could Wales vote to leave, when the EU gives us £650 million every year. Westminster aren't about to replace it. Although it shouldn't really be a surprise, when you get the likes of Naseem Hamed asking seriously, whether we have ever had a female Prime Minister.
What would have happened in the Scottish Independence Referendum if it had come after the EU Referendum? As you will be aware the Independence one came first and the result was 55% in favour of staying in the UK, with 45% against. Some of the factors that played out in this were threats from the UK Government that they would be kicked out of the EU, have no currency, etc, etc, etc. Now in the EU Referendum the people of Scotland clearly voted to remain in the EU with 62% in favour of staying in, and 38% against. Therefore if the EU Referendum was already done and no threat of being kicked out of the EU was therefore possible, would the people of Scotland then voted for Independence, with a view to attempting to access the EU as an independent country.
I love the irony of the Scots wanting to leave so that they can remain
For me it is not really about that Jac.
I absolutely wanted Scotland to vote in favour of independence but was unsure about the EU vote.
This was about the most passionate I have been about a political decision in my lifetime. As a 'tree hugging lefty' I am generally in favour of there being less 'borders' in the world as I feel that this is one way of encouraging better general living conditions for the 'less fortunate' in society (which is the vast majority of the population).
I feel there are fundamental antagonisms between Scottish values and principles and those of the UK. Scottish people are generally of a more socially orientated political persuasion than the UK as a whole. This conflicts with the Scottish sense of identity and I feel that whether it was a financial success or not that Scotland should have been separate from the UK so we could promote our own values and principles.
I was comfortable voting in the Scottish referendum as I thought I had enough information to make an informed choice.
I did not vote in the EU referendum as I thought this was far too complex an issue to say for sure one way or the other. Although I had wrote a couple of papers on the EU referendum which were very well received (think I managed my highest ever marks in academic essays on the issue) I could see so many pros and cons and to pick one or the other side would almost have boiled down to a coin flip.
After the EU vote, and reading the dialogue coming from those who had won, I realised that I personally did not want the mindset that was driving the decision to shape UK/EU politics. There really was a 'taking our country back', 'close the borders' and 'get our £350 million a week for the NHS' mentality driving a chunk of the 'leave' voters. Ultimately I also feel there are much fewer antagonisms between Scottish values and principles and those of the EU than there are between Scotland and the UK.
I do also feel as Haysie pointed out that we were lied to. As someone who felt passionate about the issue I can remember very clearly Mr Cameron overtly threatening the Scottish voters by saying we would not be in the EU if we left the UK but that we could be if we remained in the UK.
Should the ballot paper in the referendum been more comprehensive? Voting Remain was straightforward, as all voters knew what voting Remain meant. However, voting for Brexit wasn't that straightforward, as there are a number of different options. How stupid would Theresa May seem now, walking around saying Brexit means Brexit, when we still don't know what Brexit actually means to the Government. There are a number of different types of Brexits. Some Brexit voters just wanted to leave the EU and opt for WTO rules. Other Brexit voters wanted to leave the EU, but stay in the Single Market, and the Customs Union. Others wanted to leave, but just have a trade deal. There are other choices, but what would have happened if the ballot paper had included these choices instead of just "Leave" So if the Leave voters had voted equally in terms of these 3 options, then around 34% of the leave voters will be unhappy with whatever deal we finally get. Add the 48% that voted Remain and we could end up with 82% unhappy with any deal we get.
When you look back at it all, it's incred really.
People voting for something when in reality they had no idea exactly what they were voting for. Essentially voting in the dark for something that important is beyond absurd.
And that's the crux; it was far too big a decision to go to the public lightly. And it went very lightly, with ridiculous claims written on the side of buses pretty much summing up the referendum.
Sigh.
I can only agree. I blame both sides. The Brexit side for their lies, but also the remain for selling it so badly. How could Wales vote to leave, when the EU gives us £650 million every year. Westminster aren't about to replace it. Although it shouldn't really be a surprise, when you get the likes of Naseem Hamed asking seriously, whether we have ever had a female Prime Minister.
Some of the reasons you heard from people for why they voted leave were pretty amazing. I am leaving because they sell Polish sausage in Tesco. I am voting leave to stop illegal immigration.
I find it confusing how people can both take our jobs and come over here and be on benefits.
People tend to see jobs going from UK born people and link it to EU workers when it is not the case in some situations. Modernisation has lost lots of jobs, at the supermarket you can scan your own items which will mean less till operatives. At the bank you can do most things at the ATM and are encouraged to do so, again means less staff. If companies can invest in a machine to do things instead of staff then they will.
I am not saying that all of the leave voters had poor reasons as there were some who had well thought out reasons to leave. I do think the leave campaign played on the emotions of people and gave them someone to blame for their problems. I do think it was far to complicated a situation for us to be expected to have a meaningful vote on it.
I love the irony of the Scots wanting to leave so that they can remain
For me it is not really about that Jac.
I absolutely wanted Scotland to vote in favour of independence but was unsure about the EU vote.
This was about the most passionate I have been about a political decision in my lifetime. As a 'tree hugging lefty' I am generally in favour of there being less 'borders' in the world as I feel that this is one way of encouraging better general living conditions for the 'less fortunate' in society (which is the vast majority of the population).
I feel there are fundamental antagonisms between Scottish values and principles and those of the UK. Scottish people are generally of a more socially orientated political persuasion than the UK as a whole. This conflicts with the Scottish sense of identity and I feel that whether it was a financial success or not that Scotland should have been separate from the UK so we could promote our own values and principles.
I was comfortable voting in the Scottish referendum as I thought I had enough information to make an informed choice.
I did not vote in the EU referendum as I thought this was far too complex an issue to say for sure one way or the other. Although I had wrote a couple of papers on the EU referendum which were very well received (think I managed my highest ever marks in academic essays on the issue) I could see so many pros and cons and to pick one or the other side would almost have boiled down to a coin flip.
After the EU vote, and reading the dialogue coming from those who had won, I realised that I personally did not want the mindset that was driving the decision to shape UK/EU politics. There really was a 'taking our country back', 'close the borders' and 'get our £350 million a week for the NHS' mentality driving a chunk of the 'leave' voters. Ultimately I also feel there are much fewer antagonisms between Scottish values and principles and those of the EU than there are between Scotland and the UK.
I do also feel as Haysie pointed out that we were lied to. As someone who felt passionate about the issue I can remember very clearly Mr Cameron overtly threatening the Scottish voters by saying we would not be in the EU if we left the UK but that we could be if we remained in the UK.
What I was trying to ask is that out of the 55% who voted against Independence, how many would have changed their mind, if we had already voted to leave the EU. Would it have been enough to change the outcome? Particularly as Scotland voted so clearly in favour of remaining in the EU. So did many of the 55% vote in favour of staying part of the UK because they were more concerned about staying in the EU.
Should the ballot paper in the referendum been more comprehensive? Voting Remain was straightforward, as all voters knew what voting Remain meant. However, voting for Brexit wasn't that straightforward, as there are a number of different options. How stupid would Theresa May seem now, walking around saying Brexit means Brexit, when we still don't know what Brexit actually means to the Government. There are a number of different types of Brexits. Some Brexit voters just wanted to leave the EU and opt for WTO rules. Other Brexit voters wanted to leave the EU, but stay in the Single Market, and the Customs Union. Others wanted to leave, but just have a trade deal. There are other choices, but what would have happened if the ballot paper had included these choices instead of just "Leave" So if the Leave voters had voted equally in terms of these 3 options, then around 34% of the leave voters will be unhappy with whatever deal we finally get. Add the 48% that voted Remain and we could end up with 82% unhappy with any deal we get.
When you look back at it all, it's incred really.
People voting for something when in reality they had no idea exactly what they were voting for. Essentially voting in the dark for something that important is beyond absurd.
And that's the crux; it was far too big a decision to go to the public lightly. And it went very lightly, with ridiculous claims written on the side of buses pretty much summing up the referendum.
Sigh.
I can only agree. I blame both sides. The Brexit side for their lies, but also the remain for selling it so badly. How could Wales vote to leave, when the EU gives us £650 million every year. Westminster aren't about to replace it. Although it shouldn't really be a surprise, when you get the likes of Naseem Hamed asking seriously, whether we have ever had a female Prime Minister.
Some of the reasons you heard from people for why they voted leave were pretty amazing. I am leaving because they sell Polish sausage in Tesco. I am voting leave to stop illegal immigration.
I find it confusing how people can both take our jobs and come over here and be on benefits.
People tend to see jobs going from UK born people and link it to EU workers when it is not the case in some situations. Modernisation has lost lots of jobs, at the supermarket you can scan your own items which will mean less till operatives. At the bank you can do most things at the ATM and are encouraged to do so, again means less staff. If companies can invest in a machine to do things instead of staff then they will.
I am not saying that all of the leave voters had poor reasons as there were some who had well thought out reasons to leave. I do think the leave campaign played on the emotions of people and gave them someone to blame for their problems. I do think it was far to complicated a situation for us to be expected to have a meaningful vote on it.
It will always be a mystery to me that people could vote Leave, when they didn't have a clue what that meant. Half our immigrants come from Europe. Many have good jobs, but many others do jobs that Brits don't really want, like fruit picking, cleaning, working behind bars etc. As I said earlier we do have the right to send them back if they have no job in 3 months, but we just don't bother. Hardly Europes fault. Some of the trade deals we are trying to do with countries like Australia, India, etc will be conditional upon us granting them extra visas. So we will just be swapping Europeans for Austalians and Indians. If there was more awareness at the time of the vote, a Leave majority could never have happened. Would the people of Wales knowingly have voted away £650 million per year? I realise that NI voted in favour of remaining, but how could anyone in NI vote to leave if you take into account the border problem. No one in Ireland wants a border anywhere. Lastly, and amazingly, Michael Gove, who had a prominent seat on the Brexit bus, has just promised to pay our farmers £10 billion per year until 2024. Our net contributions to the EU are £9billion per year, so maybe the bus should have said "Maybe £350million per week to the NHS from possibly 2025, or sometime later.
Theresa May will probably regret her response to the NHS crisis for a very long time. When confronted will the facts that people had died in hospital corridors, in ambulances, 55,000 operations had been cancelled, cancer treatments had been postponed, etc, etc, etc, she responded with "Nothing is perfect." Incredible.
We are still in the E.U. we have not left yet, our Country is in ruins from years of being in the E.U. We never got to vote then now we have the remain camp say foul play, the leave won because who wanted another 20 year of the same. We are told the Economy is booming but services in decline, prices & taxes go up, wages, living standards go down. The younger generation deprived of Apprenticeships, Pensions, now Paying for Education. Up to their eye balls in debt even before they start so what chance getting on the housing ladder.
Don't start me of't. If there is another vote then a vote for remain is vote for the same.
We are still in the E.U. we have not left yet, our Country is in ruins from years of being in the E.U. We never got to vote then now we have the remain camp say foul play, the leave won because who wanted another 20 year of the same. We are told the Economy is booming but services in decline, prices & taxes go up, wages, living standards go down. The younger generation deprived of Apprenticeships, Pensions, now Paying for Education. Up to their eye balls in debt even before they start so what chance getting on the housing ladder.
Don't start me of't. If there is another vote then a vote for remain is vote for the same.
The EU don't actually run our country, that is what the Government does. What makes you think that the EU is to blame for any of the above? Its our Government that is telling you that the economy is booming, not the EU. You are confused.
Comments
If a party tackled this issue it would encourage me to vote for them too. The creating of more 'real jobs' (not zero hours contracts and sanctions to fudge unemployment figures). There could also be more support to address levels of inequality (which is a massive and broad issue affecting most of us in one way or other).
I could go on but it has been an 11 hour work day and my head is baked. Great to see the discussion is going strong ITT!
People voting for something when in reality they had no idea exactly what they were voting for. Essentially voting in the dark for something that important is beyond absurd.
And that's the crux; it was far too big a decision to go to the public lightly. And it went very lightly, with ridiculous claims written on the side of buses pretty much summing up the referendum.
Sigh.
How could Wales vote to leave, when the EU gives us £650 million every year. Westminster aren't about to replace it.
Although it shouldn't really be a surprise, when you get the likes of Naseem Hamed asking seriously, whether we have ever had a female Prime Minister.
As you will be aware the Independence one came first and the result was 55% in favour of staying in the UK, with 45% against. Some of the factors that played out in this were threats from the UK Government that they would be kicked out of the EU, have no currency, etc, etc, etc.
Now in the EU Referendum the people of Scotland clearly voted to remain in the EU with 62% in favour of staying in, and 38% against.
Therefore if the EU Referendum was already done and no threat of being kicked out of the EU was therefore possible, would the people of Scotland then voted for Independence, with a view to attempting to access the EU as an independent country.
I absolutely wanted Scotland to vote in favour of independence but was unsure about the EU vote.
This was about the most passionate I have been about a political decision in my lifetime. As a 'tree hugging lefty' I am generally in favour of there being less 'borders' in the world as I feel that this is one way of encouraging better general living conditions for the 'less fortunate' in society (which is the vast majority of the population).
I feel there are fundamental antagonisms between Scottish values and principles and those of the UK. Scottish people are generally of a more socially orientated political persuasion than the UK as a whole. This conflicts with the Scottish sense of identity and I feel that whether it was a financial success or not that Scotland should have been separate from the UK so we could promote our own values and principles.
I was comfortable voting in the Scottish referendum as I thought I had enough information to make an informed choice.
I did not vote in the EU referendum as I thought this was far too complex an issue to say for sure one way or the other. Although I had wrote a couple of papers on the EU referendum which were very well received (think I managed my highest ever marks in academic essays on the issue) I could see so many pros and cons and to pick one or the other side would almost have boiled down to a coin flip.
After the EU vote, and reading the dialogue coming from those who had won, I realised that I personally did not want the mindset that was driving the decision to shape UK/EU politics. There really was a 'taking our country back', 'close the borders' and 'get our £350 million a week for the NHS' mentality driving a chunk of the 'leave' voters. Ultimately I also feel there are much fewer antagonisms between Scottish values and principles and those of the EU than there are between Scotland and the UK.
I do also feel as Haysie pointed out that we were lied to. As someone who felt passionate about the issue I can remember very clearly Mr Cameron overtly threatening the Scottish voters by saying we would not be in the EU if we left the UK but that we could be if we remained in the UK.
Unlike me, but i was seeking a reaction
Campaigning was terrible from both sides.
Some of the reasons you heard from people for why they voted leave were pretty amazing.
I am leaving because they sell Polish sausage in Tesco.
I am voting leave to stop illegal immigration.
I find it confusing how people can both take our jobs and come over here and be on benefits.
People tend to see jobs going from UK born people and link it to EU workers when it is not the case in some situations. Modernisation has lost lots of jobs, at the supermarket you can scan your own items which will mean less till operatives. At the bank you can do most things at the ATM and are encouraged to do so, again means less staff. If companies can invest in a machine to do things instead of staff then they will.
I am not saying that all of the leave voters had poor reasons as there were some who had well thought out reasons to leave. I do think the leave campaign played on the emotions of people and gave them someone to blame for their problems. I do think it was far to complicated a situation for us to be expected to have a meaningful vote on it.
"Agree with all of your posts @HAYSIE
Who'd have thought those words would ever appear on the Forum?
So did many of the 55% vote in favour of staying part of the UK because they were more concerned about staying in the EU.
Half our immigrants come from Europe. Many have good jobs, but many others do jobs that Brits don't really want, like fruit picking, cleaning, working behind bars etc.
As I said earlier we do have the right to send them back if they have no job in 3 months, but we just don't bother. Hardly Europes fault.
Some of the trade deals we are trying to do with countries like Australia, India, etc will be conditional upon us granting them extra visas. So we will just be swapping Europeans for Austalians and Indians.
If there was more awareness at the time of the vote, a Leave majority could never have happened.
Would the people of Wales knowingly have voted away £650 million per year?
I realise that NI voted in favour of remaining, but how could anyone in NI vote to leave if you take into account the border problem. No one in Ireland wants a border anywhere.
Lastly, and amazingly, Michael Gove, who had a prominent seat on the Brexit bus, has just promised to pay our farmers £10 billion per year until 2024.
Our net contributions to the EU are £9billion per year, so maybe the bus should have said "Maybe £350million per week to the NHS from possibly 2025, or sometime later.
Incredible.
We are still in the E.U. we have not left yet, our Country is in ruins from years of being in the E.U. We never got to vote then now we have the remain camp say foul play, the leave won because who wanted another 20 year of the same. We are told the Economy is booming but services in decline, prices & taxes go up, wages, living standards go down.
The younger generation deprived of Apprenticeships, Pensions, now Paying for Education.
Up to their eye balls in debt even before they start so what chance getting on the housing ladder.
Don't start me of't. If there is another vote then a vote for remain is vote for the same.
Its our Government that is telling you that the economy is booming, not the EU.
You are confused.