Andrea Leadsom: no-deal Brexit next week would not be so grim
A no-deal Brexit at the end of next week would be “not nearly as grim” as many believe, one of Theresa May’s senior ministers has said, as both the government and Labour indicated that cross-party talks to resolve the situation remained deadlocked.
Andrea Leadsom, the Commons leader, said preparations would mitigate many adverse effects of no deal. She also said the idea of a departure extension long enough to require the UK to hold European elections was “utterly unacceptable”.
There is currently very little sign that May will travel to next week’s emergency European council summit with the coherent plan the EU says will be necessary to grant the UK a further delay to Brexit, which is currently scheduled to happen on Friday.
At the end of last week Labour said the talks called by May with Jeremy Corbyn and his team had achieved very little as the prime minister seemed unwilling to compromise on any of her Brexit red lines, notably on Labour’s key demand for a post-Brexit customs union with the EU.
The shadow business secretary, Rebecca Long-Bailey, who was among the Labour delegation, said on Sunday that while the mood of the talks had been “quite a positive and hopeful one”, little was achieved.
“The sad thing is at the moment we haven’t seen, overall, any real changes to the deal, but we’re hopeful that will change in coming days and we are willing to continue the talks as we know the government are,” she told BBC One’s Andrew Marr Show. “But we are currently waiting for the government to come back to us now to state whether they are prepared to move on any of their red lines.”
Speaking later on the same show, Leadsom indicated that it was up to Labour to accept the customs “arrangement” already in May’s three-times-rejected deal, and that she and other Brexiter members of May’s ministerial team could not accept a full customs union.
“There are various different types of arrangements, and those discussions are still ongoing,” Leadsom said, calling May’s existing customs plan “an excellent proposal”.
Asked whether May could agree to a full customs union, Leadsom indicated not. “My expectation – and I’m not party to the discussions – is that the prime minister will only seek to agree those things that still constitute Brexit.”
She also refused to confirm she could stay in the government if a new customs plan was agreed, saying: “It depends on what that means.”
There has been speculation that MPs could force a vote to revoke article 50 entirely if the EU refuses another Brexit delay this week and a no-deal departure looms on Friday. Leadsom said she would never agree to this, and that no deal would be manageable. It’s not nearly as grim as many would advocate,” she said. “The civil service have done an amazing job of ensuring that we minimise the problems. I’m not an advocate for no deal, but it would not be nearly as bad as many like to think it would be.”
Under May’s compromise plan, announced in a Downing Street statement on Wednesday, if Labour and the government cannot agree a consensus then MPs could be asked to vote on various options, with the choice seen as binding.
But Long-Bailey said Labour had heard nothing about how this could happen: “We haven’t had any discussions really as to what a next stage would be, and the government hasn’t confirmed whether they want to adopt that approach or look at more flexible approaches.”
She refused to rule out Labour backing a revocation of article 50, saying the party wanted to stop no deal “in any situation”. Asked about possible revocation, she added: “We’ll keep all options in play.
Amid the impasse, the timetable ahead of Friday’s Brexit deadline is compressing greatly, with time seemingly too short to allow a process of government-sanctioned indicative votes by MPs before May goes to Brussels on Wednesday afternoon.
May could instead travel compelled by parliament to seek a longer extension to article 50 than the new 22 June date she has sought, and which the EU has previously refused.
A backbench bill led by the Labour MP Yvette Cooper mandating May to avoid a no-deal departure is expected to finish its progress through the Lords on Monday and then get royal assent the same day.
Before the EU potentially agrees a longer delay to Brexit it must weight up the possibility of a future, post-May government being an obstructive member of the bloc.
The Conservative backbench Brexiter Jacob Rees-Mogg on Sunday reiterated his proposal for the UK to seek to veto EU budgets and other disruptions if it stayed.
“I don’t think the EU, in its jargon, has behaved towards us with sincere cooperation,” he told Sky News’s Sophy Ridge on Sunday. “We are no longer obliged to follow sincere cooperation in return.”
He said: “When the multi-annual financial framework comes forward, if we are still in, this is our one-in-seven-year opportunity to veto the budget and to be really very difficult, and I hope that any British prime minister would take that opportunity.”
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
Yea, kinda similar to someone scoffing at “ Could happen” posts, then posting “ Could happen” post, weird huh.
Pretty weird , you would take the mickey out of an android ?post , claim it as being a lie , then when faced with the facts admit its true . Truth is the post is factually correct , we could scrap vat in its current form if we left the EU and replace it with something fairer if we wished , but whilst part of the EU we CANT . The thing is sorting the facts from the truth can be hard , when both sides are guilty of only seeing what they want to see .
So we cant while we are in the EU, except we can on sanitary products.
We are going to have less money, not more, when we leave.
Anyone suggesting otherwise is living in a fantasy land. How much less-only time will tell. Whether that is a price worth paying? Money isn't the be-all and end-all.
We certainly will not have more economic freedom in practice.
One thing we WILL have is extra ability to control our own immigration system. Rightly or wrongly, the country definitely voted for that. And yet no sensible discussion in the UK press about how this may best be achieved.
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
The claim: Vote Leave says the UK cannot lower VAT rates as long as it is in the European Union. Michael Gove said the 5% rate of VAT on household gas and electricity bills could not be scrapped because of EU rules.
Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%, so the government could reduce it by up to 5% today if it wanted. Domestic fuel is on a special list of pre-approved goods and services that are subject to lower VAT rates and it would require the agreement of all other EU members to reduce it further. EU countries have been co-ordinating their VAT rates since 1992, as part of building up the single market and ensuring there is no unfair competition across national borders.
Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of 15%. They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower than 5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU countries.
The UK's standard VAT rate is 20%, so, within the current rules, the UK government has some flexibility to bring it down to 15%, if it wanted to.
It is right to say the UK cannot remove the VAT on household gas and electricity bills.
Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
It is worth pointing out that it is not at all clear that a post-Brexit UK government would want to remove VAT on domestic fuel. This would depend, among other things, on the wider economic impact of leaving.
In April 2016, the European Commission proposed changes to EU VAT rules with the aim of giving member states more flexibility on rates.
There are currently two options being considered.
The first would allow all EU countries the same rights to apply zero and reduced VAT rates and the list of goods and services in this category would be reviewed on a regular basis.
The second would allow members to set reduced rates as they wished, as long as that did not create tax distortions in the single market.
Once this is established, and the European Parliament's views are taken into account, the Commission will draw up detailed proposals.
The finance ministers of all 28 EU countries will have to agree to these proposals unanimously before they can be implemented. There is no timetable or deadline for these changes, but the European Commission is working towards having the detailed proposals this year or next.
The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan, which the European Commission pledged to finalise in 2016
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
So do you think we will scrap it when we leave?
No I don't , but that's irrelevant . I'm quoting indisputable facts here , which you are denying. We will have the choice though , which we currently don't.
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
So do you think we will scrap it when we leave?
No I don't , but that's irrelevant . I'm quoting indisputable facts here , which you are denying. We will have the choice though , which we currently don't.
What a ridiculous argument. You need a new bus. The Government could give us all 10k each when we leave but they wont. The Government will not abolish vat. We effectively had vat before we joined the EU. Even if they did abolish it nobody would be 20% better off. If it was abolished they would merely find another tax to replace it. You say we cant do anything about it while still members, yet we can remove it from sanitary products.
Record £100bn in VAT is paid to treasury: £1 in every £5 collected by the Government comes from the tax Tory Chancellor George Osborne increased VAT to 20 per cent in 2011 Now the total take almost equals the amount paid in National Insurance Critics call it an 'unfair and regressive tax'
One of Britain’s most controversial taxes, VAT, is worth more than £100billion a year for the first time ever, figures revealed yesterday. The statistic, published by HM Revenue and Customs, means more than £1 in every £5 which is collected by the Government comes from Value Added Tax. The bonanza is fuelled not just by Britain’s recovering economy, which sees people spending more, but also the Chancellor’s decision to hike the rate from 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent. It has been stuck at this record level since January 2011 despite the impact on family finances.
Labour, which opposed the higher rate, has also admitted it has no plans to cut it. The total tax take for 2013/14 was £488.5billion. Of that, VAT was worth £104.7billion – almost as much as the total amount paid in National Insurance. Inheritance Tax was worth £3.4billion.
During its first year, VAT was levied at just 10 per cent and raised only £1.5billion from taxpayers for the public purse.
The claim: Vote Leave says the UK cannot lower VAT rates as long as it is in the European Union. Michael Gove said the 5% rate of VAT on household gas and electricity bills could not be scrapped because of EU rules.
Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%, so the government could reduce it by up to 5% today if it wanted. Domestic fuel is on a special list of pre-approved goods and services that are subject to lower VAT rates and it would require the agreement of all other EU members to reduce it further. EU countries have been co-ordinating their VAT rates since 1992, as part of building up the single market and ensuring there is no unfair competition across national borders.
Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of 15%. They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower than 5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU countries.
The UK's standard VAT rate is 20%, so, within the current rules, the UK government has some flexibility to bring it down to 15%, if it wanted to.
It is right to say the UK cannot remove the VAT on household gas and electricity bills.
Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
It is worth pointing out that it is not at all clear that a post-Brexit UK government would want to remove VAT on domestic fuel. This would depend, among other things, on the wider economic impact of leaving.
In April 2016, the European Commission proposed changes to EU VAT rules with the aim of giving member states more flexibility on rates.
There are currently two options being considered.
The first would allow all EU countries the same rights to apply zero and reduced VAT rates and the list of goods and services in this category would be reviewed on a regular basis.
The second would allow members to set reduced rates as they wished, as long as that did not create tax distortions in the single market.
Once this is established, and the European Parliament's views are taken into account, the Commission will draw up detailed proposals.
The finance ministers of all 28 EU countries will have to agree to these proposals unanimously before they can be implemented. There is no timetable or deadline for these changes, but the European Commission is working towards having the detailed proposals this year or next.
The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan, which the European Commission pledged to finalise in 2016
The claim: Vote Leave says the UK cannot lower VAT rates as long as it is in the European Union. Michael Gove said the 5% rate of VAT on household gas and electricity bills could not be scrapped because of EU rules.
Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%, so the government could reduce it by up to 5% today if it wanted. Domestic fuel is on a special list of pre-approved goods and services that are subject to lower VAT rates and it would require the agreement of all other EU members to reduce it further. EU countries have been co-ordinating their VAT rates since 1992, as part of building up the single market and ensuring there is no unfair competition across national borders.
Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of 15%. They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower than 5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU countries.
The UK's standard VAT rate is 20%, so, within the current rules, the UK government has some flexibility to bring it down to 15%, if it wanted to.
It is right to say the UK cannot remove the VAT on household gas and electricity bills.
Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
It is worth pointing out that it is not at all clear that a post-Brexit UK government would want to remove VAT on domestic fuel. This would depend, among other things, on the wider economic impact of leaving.
In April 2016, the European Commission proposed changes to EU VAT rules with the aim of giving member states more flexibility on rates.
There are currently two options being considered.
The first would allow all EU countries the same rights to apply zero and reduced VAT rates and the list of goods and services in this category would be reviewed on a regular basis.
The second would allow members to set reduced rates as they wished, as long as that did not create tax distortions in the single market.
Once this is established, and the European Parliament's views are taken into account, the Commission will draw up detailed proposals.
The finance ministers of all 28 EU countries will have to agree to these proposals unanimously before they can be implemented. There is no timetable or deadline for these changes, but the European Commission is working towards having the detailed proposals this year or next.
The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan, which the European Commission pledged to finalise in 2016
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
So do you think we will scrap it when we leave?
No I don't , but that's irrelevant . I'm quoting indisputable facts here , which you are denying. We will have the choice though , which we currently don't.
So what you seem to be saying is that even though the Government has no intention of ever scrapping vat, the fact that they could, even though they are not, after leaving the EU is some sort of real benefit?
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
So do you think we will scrap it when we leave?
No I don't , but that's irrelevant . I'm quoting indisputable facts here , which you are denying. We will have the choice though , which we currently don't.
So what you seem to be saying is that even though the Government has no intention of ever scrapping vat, the fact that they could, even though they are not, after leaving the EU is some sort of real benefit?
I'm not arguing for or against , I'm merely stating the FACTS . Something which are very thin on the ground on this thread . Tomgoodun , incorrectly "whooped" that a post that once we leave the EU we would be able to scrap VAT if we wanted to , was " peddling lies " . You also said as much , even though you dont know the difference between income tax and VAT , I'm merely correcting the pair of you . And hopefully any stray reader won't be influenced by falsities. Also how can I possibly predict what future governments do in respect to this or anything ...sorry my crystal ball is in the repair shop .
The claim: Vote Leave says the UK cannot lower VAT rates as long as it is in the European Union. Michael Gove said the 5% rate of VAT on household gas and electricity bills could not be scrapped because of EU rules.
Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%, so the government could reduce it by up to 5% today if it wanted. Domestic fuel is on a special list of pre-approved goods and services that are subject to lower VAT rates and it would require the agreement of all other EU members to reduce it further. EU countries have been co-ordinating their VAT rates since 1992, as part of building up the single market and ensuring there is no unfair competition across national borders.
Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of 15%. They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower than 5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU countries.
The UK's standard VAT rate is 20%, so, within the current rules, the UK government has some flexibility to bring it down to 15%, if it wanted to.
It is right to say the UK cannot remove the VAT on household gas and electricity bills.
Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
It is worth pointing out that it is not at all clear that a post-Brexit UK government would want to remove VAT on domestic fuel. This would depend, among other things, on the wider economic impact of leaving.
In April 2016, the European Commission proposed changes to EU VAT rules with the aim of giving member states more flexibility on rates.
There are currently two options being considered.
The first would allow all EU countries the same rights to apply zero and reduced VAT rates and the list of goods and services in this category would be reviewed on a regular basis.
The second would allow members to set reduced rates as they wished, as long as that did not create tax distortions in the single market.
Once this is established, and the European Parliament's views are taken into account, the Commission will draw up detailed proposals.
The finance ministers of all 28 EU countries will have to agree to these proposals unanimously before they can be implemented. There is no timetable or deadline for these changes, but the European Commission is working towards having the detailed proposals this year or next.
The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan, which the European Commission pledged to finalise in 2016
You have highlighted bits that say the minimum rate is 15%, yet in the case of household fuel it is 5% which is also the minimum rate. They cant both be correct. If the Government wanted to they could reduce vat to 15%, or is it 5%, but neither of these things have happened. So while we are members we could reduce it, but haven't done so. If we leave we can scrap it but wont. This is just a ridiculous argument. I don't intend wasting my time arguing about nonsense with you all day. Nobody would be 20% better off.
The claim: Vote Leave says the UK cannot lower VAT rates as long as it is in the European Union. Michael Gove said the 5% rate of VAT on household gas and electricity bills could not be scrapped because of EU rules.
Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%, so the government could reduce it by up to 5% today if it wanted. Domestic fuel is on a special list of pre-approved goods and services that are subject to lower VAT rates and it would require the agreement of all other EU members to reduce it further. EU countries have been co-ordinating their VAT rates since 1992, as part of building up the single market and ensuring there is no unfair competition across national borders.
Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of 15%. They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower than 5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU countries.
The UK's standard VAT rate is 20%, so, within the current rules, the UK government has some flexibility to bring it down to 15%, if it wanted to.
It is right to say the UK cannot remove the VAT on household gas and electricity bills.
Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
It is worth pointing out that it is not at all clear that a post-Brexit UK government would want to remove VAT on domestic fuel. This would depend, among other things, on the wider economic impact of leaving.
In April 2016, the European Commission proposed changes to EU VAT rules with the aim of giving member states more flexibility on rates.
There are currently two options being considered.
The first would allow all EU countries the same rights to apply zero and reduced VAT rates and the list of goods and services in this category would be reviewed on a regular basis.
The second would allow members to set reduced rates as they wished, as long as that did not create tax distortions in the single market.
Once this is established, and the European Parliament's views are taken into account, the Commission will draw up detailed proposals.
The finance ministers of all 28 EU countries will have to agree to these proposals unanimously before they can be implemented. There is no timetable or deadline for these changes, but the European Commission is working towards having the detailed proposals this year or next.
The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan, which the European Commission pledged to finalise in 2016
You have highlighted bits that say the minimum rate is 15%, yet in the case of household fuel it is 5% which is also the minimum rate. They cant both be correct. If the Government wanted to they could reduce vat to 15%, or is it 5%, but neither of these things have happened. So while we are members we could reduce it, but haven't done so. If we leave we can scrap it but wont. This is just a ridiculous argument. I don't intend wasting my time arguing about nonsense with you all day. Nobody would be 20% better off.
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
Where would I be without being able to rely on you to point out the blindingly obvious. The point I was making, that clearly escaped you, was that it is just at likely that the Government would scrap income tax, as it would be for them to scrap vat. They will scrap neither, whether or not we are members of the EU. Therefore nobody will be 20% better off. It is a completely bogus claim.
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
Where would I be without being able to rely on you to point out the blindingly obvious. The point I was making, that clearly escaped you, was that it is just at likely that the Government would scrap income tax, as it would be for them to scrap vat. They will scrap neither, whether or not we are members of the EU. Therefore nobody will be 20% better off. It is a completely bogus claim.
It is not a bogus claim , to point out that as it stands being part of the EU , we are unable to scrap VAT , should we wish to .
The claim: Vote Leave says the UK cannot lower VAT rates as long as it is in the European Union. Michael Gove said the 5% rate of VAT on household gas and electricity bills could not be scrapped because of EU rules.
Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%, so the government could reduce it by up to 5% today if it wanted. Domestic fuel is on a special list of pre-approved goods and services that are subject to lower VAT rates and it would require the agreement of all other EU members to reduce it further. EU countries have been co-ordinating their VAT rates since 1992, as part of building up the single market and ensuring there is no unfair competition across national borders.
Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of 15%. They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower than 5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU countries.
The UK's standard VAT rate is 20%, so, within the current rules, the UK government has some flexibility to bring it down to 15%, if it wanted to.
It is right to say the UK cannot remove the VAT on household gas and electricity bills.
Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
It is worth pointing out that it is not at all clear that a post-Brexit UK government would want to remove VAT on domestic fuel. This would depend, among other things, on the wider economic impact of leaving.
In April 2016, the European Commission proposed changes to EU VAT rules with the aim of giving member states more flexibility on rates.
There are currently two options being considered.
The first would allow all EU countries the same rights to apply zero and reduced VAT rates and the list of goods and services in this category would be reviewed on a regular basis.
The second would allow members to set reduced rates as they wished, as long as that did not create tax distortions in the single market.
Once this is established, and the European Parliament's views are taken into account, the Commission will draw up detailed proposals.
The finance ministers of all 28 EU countries will have to agree to these proposals unanimously before they can be implemented. There is no timetable or deadline for these changes, but the European Commission is working towards having the detailed proposals this year or next.
The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan, which the European Commission pledged to finalise in 2016
You have highlighted bits that say the minimum rate is 15%, yet in the case of household fuel it is 5% which is also the minimum rate. They cant both be correct. If the Government wanted to they could reduce vat to 15%, or is it 5%, but neither of these things have happened. So while we are members we could reduce it, but haven't done so. If we leave we can scrap it but wont. This is just a ridiculous argument. I don't intend wasting my time arguing about nonsense with you all day. Nobody would be 20% better off.
I refer you to my previous answer above .
My last on this topic.
These are the bits that YOU highlighted in the article YOU posted. You may think they make sense.
Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU.
This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
It is worth pointing out that it is not at all clear that a post-Brexit UK government would want to remove VAT on domestic fuel. This would depend, among other things, on the wider economic impact of leaving.
In April 2016, the European Commission proposed changes to EU VAT rules with the aim of giving member states more flexibility on rates.
The first would allow all EU countries the same rights to apply zero and reduced VAT rates and the list of goods and services in this category would be reviewed on a regular basis.
The second would allow members to set reduced rates as they wished, as long as that did not create tax distortions in the single market.
The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan,
Anyone else confused ?...one minute , a post saying once we leave the EU we could scrap vat is pedalling lies , next minute a post admits that it is true.....haha love this place #consistent
It is clearly a bogus claim. The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU. It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand. For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat. Who does that?
To start with we are talking about VAT not income tax , in case you don't know the difference one is a direct tax , and the other is an indirect tax. Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
So do you think we will scrap it when we leave?
No I don't , but that's irrelevant . I'm quoting indisputable facts here , which you are denying. We will have the choice though , which we currently don't.
We could decide to execute the over 70s to solve the pension deficit, and is equally as likely as scrapping vat.
Comments
The headline says it all for me.
Did all those leave voters vote for something that can optimistically described by a prominent member of the leave campaign as "not so Grim".
How many were there, I have forgotten?
Really "not so grim"
All those people voting for a "not so grim" future.
I cant recall any of the Brexiteers telling us that, during the referendum campaign.
"Not so grim" didn't appear on the side of any bus.
Strange that.
https://news.sky.com/video/brexit-jacob-rees-mogg-pm-failed-to-negotiate-at-all-effectively-11682934
The Government could abolish income tax without leaving the EU.
It is foolish to think that the Government would return money to us with one hand without implementing a way of taking it back with the other hand.
For anyone to be able to get an extra 20% in their pockets, would mean that they would have to spend their whole lives spending all their income on products that were subject to 20% vat.
Who does that?
Fact : We are unable to scrap VAT whilst being a member of the EU .
We will have the choice though , which we currently don't.
You need a new bus.
The Government could give us all 10k each when we leave but they wont.
The Government will not abolish vat.
We effectively had vat before we joined the EU.
Even if they did abolish it nobody would be 20% better off.
If it was abolished they would merely find another tax to replace it.
You say we cant do anything about it while still members, yet we can remove it from sanitary products.
Record £100bn in VAT is paid to treasury: £1 in every £5 collected by the Government comes from the tax
Tory Chancellor George Osborne increased VAT to 20 per cent in 2011
Now the total take almost equals the amount paid in National Insurance
Critics call it an 'unfair and regressive tax'
One of Britain’s most controversial taxes, VAT, is worth more than £100billion a year for the first time ever, figures revealed yesterday.
The statistic, published by HM Revenue and Customs, means more than £1 in every £5 which is collected by the Government comes from Value Added Tax.
The bonanza is fuelled not just by Britain’s recovering economy, which sees people spending more, but also the Chancellor’s decision to hike the rate from 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent. It has been stuck at this record level since January 2011 despite the impact on family finances.
Labour, which opposed the higher rate, has also admitted it has no plans to cut it. The total tax take for 2013/14 was £488.5billion. Of that, VAT was worth £104.7billion – almost as much as the total amount paid in National Insurance. Inheritance Tax was worth £3.4billion.
During its first year, VAT was levied at just 10 per cent and raised only £1.5billion from taxpayers for the public purse.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702218/Record-100bn-VAT-paid-treasury-1-5-collected-Government-comes-tax.html
So what you seem to be saying is that even though the Government has no intention of ever scrapping vat, the fact that they could, even though they are not, after leaving the EU is some sort of real benefit?
Also how can I possibly predict what future governments do in respect to this or anything ...sorry my crystal ball is in the repair shop .
They cant both be correct.
If the Government wanted to they could reduce vat to 15%, or is it 5%, but neither of these things have happened.
So while we are members we could reduce it, but haven't done so.
If we leave we can scrap it but wont.
This is just a ridiculous argument.
I don't intend wasting my time arguing about nonsense with you all day.
Nobody would be 20% better off.
The point I was making, that clearly escaped you, was that it is just at likely that the Government would scrap income tax, as it would be for them to scrap vat.
They will scrap neither, whether or not we are members of the EU.
Therefore nobody will be 20% better off.
It is a completely bogus claim.
These are the bits that YOU highlighted in the article YOU posted. You may think they make sense.
Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU.
This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.
It is worth pointing out that it is not at all clear that a post-Brexit UK government would want to remove VAT on domestic fuel. This would depend, among other things, on the wider economic impact of leaving.
In April 2016, the European Commission proposed changes to EU VAT rules with the aim of giving member states more flexibility on rates.
The first would allow all EU countries the same rights to apply zero and reduced VAT rates and the list of goods and services in this category would be reviewed on a regular basis.
The second would allow members to set reduced rates as they wished, as long as that did not create tax distortions in the single market.
The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan,