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Brexit

HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,492
Great quote on the telly last night.

"If we all knew what we were voting for in the referendum 2 years ago, why does no one know what it is now?
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Comments

  • StayOrGoStayOrGo Member Posts: 11,338
    edited May 2018
    Probably because the leave campaign, at best were clueless about what leaving the EU meant, or at worse lied about what it meant.

    More than likely a bit of each tbh.

    The majority of the voting public probably didn't know the intricacies of what they were voting for, why would they, they are regular people, not those that understand what is best for the county and wider world.

    It was a bit like asking my Mother on the best way to play a Poker hand. She has never played Poker in her life, but her opinion via a referendum would carry the same weight as Phil Ivey or Phil Helmuth.

    Some decisions we should leave for the elected "experts", that's why we have a government.

    Anyway this is just a lighthearted tongue in cheek response, not something I'd go back and forth on. The referendum took place, and we should try and get as close to what was expected by the people. Although different "leave voters" had different expectations, so it's not clear.

    FWIW, I don't think most people did know what they were voting for, beyond, "Leaving the EU", so the first part of the above statement, for a lot of voters, isn't quite true.

  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,492
    I think that very few people really knew what they were voting for, or what the consequences might be. Many voted on ideological reasons. I am not sure how taking back our sovereignty affects the average working man on a daily basis. Some voted "Leave" to restrict immigration, but we need immigrants, and just leaving the EU in itself is not guaranteed to reduce immigration.
    It is a scandal that 2 years after the referendum, we still haven't a clue as to what will happen.
    I am not sure that many people would have voted to leave if it had been clear that this would mean many job losses, and people becoming poorer.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 3,162
    To be fair, BOTH sides both lied to us and ignored most of the key issues.

    It is undoubtedly true that Immigration was the key issue-however, people seem incapable of recognising that immigration from outside the EU is completely unaffected by whether we are in or out of the EU. There was nothing stopping us introducing a points system for anyone from outside the EU before Brexit.

    I love the idea that the UK can negotiate better trade deals than the EU (1 country being SO much more attractive than 27)-and in breaking news, Waitrose can buy stuff cheaper than Tesco :)
  • tomgooduntomgoodun Member Posts: 3,094
    In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
    Democracy has its good points, but the general public should never have been tasked with such a monumental decision, the people “in power” had/have no idea what Brexit means for the country, so how should the people know what impact on our lives this will have.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,492
    Essexphil said:

    To be fair, BOTH sides both lied to us and ignored most of the key issues.

    It is undoubtedly true that Immigration was the key issue-however, people seem incapable of recognising that immigration from outside the EU is completely unaffected by whether we are in or out of the EU. There was nothing stopping us introducing a points system for anyone from outside the EU before Brexit.

    I love the idea that the UK can negotiate better trade deals than the EU (1 country being SO much more attractive than 27)-and in breaking news, Waitrose can buy stuff cheaper than Tesco :)

    On the trade front, the hard brexiteer argument above leaving the customs union is that we cant negotiate trade deals elsewhere whilst we remain in the customs union. Yet 20% of our current trade is with the USA, despite still being members of the EU. Germany do six times the trade that we do with China, while they are still members. So we are allowed to trade, but not do trade deals. No politician seems to point this out, because it doesn't suit their argument.
    Wouldn't the best of both worlds be, leaving the EU, staying in the customs union and the single market, whilst improving the trade we do with other countries, without doing trade deals.
  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 1,280
    tomgoodun said:

    In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
    Democracy has its good points, but the general public should never have been tasked with such a monumental decision, the people “in power” had/have no idea what Brexit means for the country, so how should the people know what impact on our lives this will have.

    That may be true my friend but, those in power are there to carry out the wishes of the electorate not to tell us what they think is best, which is usually whatever best serves their interests not ours. If we are to meekly allow those in power to get on with it then we may as well become a dictatorship.

    If you want true democracy then everybody who is eligible to do so must vote by law (how many people complain about everything and yet never go to the ballot box) and each vote must count (proportional representation). Anything else is a corruption of true democracy.

    I await my invitation from Mr. Dimbleby.

    yours in politics

    Mark.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,492
    tomgoodun said:

    In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
    Democracy has its good points, but the general public should never have been tasked with such a monumental decision, the people “in power” had/have no idea what Brexit means for the country, so how should the people know what impact on our lives this will have.

    David Cameron stupidly called the referendum, thinking he could shut the Euro sceptics in the Tory party up, without an inkling that Leave could possibly win,
    It was nothing to do with democracy.
    This complacency probably led to such a poor campaign for staying in.
  • tomgooduntomgoodun Member Posts: 3,094
    In answer to “carry out the wishes of the electorate”
    We pay the MPs to do what’s best for the country.
    The referendum on in or out was similar to employing a financial adviser, paying him vast sums of money, then he rings you up and asks what stocks and shares to buy....
  • markycashmarkycash Member Posts: 2,774
    If the general public and politicians had debated the issue something akin to the dialogue in this thread then we wouldn't be in this mess.
  • TheMadMonkTheMadMonk Member Posts: 284
    Didn't vote in the brexit election, and don't vote in most elections (last one i voted in was the independence election,voted to stay part of the uk)
    Been around long enough,to realise politicians don't deserve my vote.
    No matter what happens with brexit, it will have little or no effect on me or my lifestyle.
  • kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,119
    I genuinely believe communism is underrated.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,492

    Didn't vote in the brexit election, and don't vote in most elections (last one i voted in was the independence election,voted to stay part of the uk)
    Been around long enough,to realise politicians don't deserve my vote.
    No matter what happens with brexit, it will have little or no effect on me or my lifestyle.

    How could you possibly know that when nobody knows the details yet?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,492
    markycash said:

    If the general public and politicians had debated the issue something akin to the dialogue in this thread then we wouldn't be in this mess.

    I couldn't disagree with this or the post before.
    Whats disappointing for me is that quite a number of politicians are forcing the government into making choices that suit them rather than whats best for the country.
    Also the complete lack of progress in the negotiations, in the 2 years since the referendum is worrying.
    Any problem seems to have been kicked down the road.
  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 1,280

    I genuinely believe communism is underrated.

    In its truest form its the fairest system. Everybody equal, however somebody always to be in charge and from that moment on its doomed to failure, as man in general is a self serving animal.

    Also its no coincidence that many of the countries with appalling records on human rights, freedom of the press, and indoctrination are Marxist communist regimes, remember Stalin murdered more people than Hitler.

    Still awaiting my invitation from question time

    yours in politics

    Mark
  • BrrrrrrrBrrrrrrr Member Posts: 3,103
    And this is in Poker Chat because... 😂😂
  • stokefcstokefc Member Posts: 5,092
    After 8 years of austerity the ordinary folk had had enough of the government/banks the centric London elite and wanted to give them a kicking in the nads . People in poor areas don't understand the bigger picture they see what's happening in the country on the news and see the country on it's @rse ( maybe not down south)
    So the ordinary folk came out in record numbers to show them how we feel

    If there were more detailed discussions way before the referendum people may have been wiser sadly there was nothing
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,492
    I agree that the general public were sadly ill informed when it came to the referendum.
    Although I think that the vast majority don't take any real interest in politics. What we tend to do in this Country if things are going well, is reelect the current government, and if things are going badly elect the opposition.
    I think this reasoning may have been applied to the referendum. Where things were not going well and we were in the EU, so perhaps we ought to try being out of it. This was despite the fact that the reasons we were doing badly had nothing to do with being members of the EU.
    The fact that we will not be allowed to get the same deal as non members, as we got when we were, means that we will definitely be worse off.
    Many manufacturers have set up in this Country to easily access Europe, not just to sell to Brits.
    The Government admitted on Sunday that a failure to sort out the Customs mess would result in job losses in car manufacturing. If the foreign car manufacturers moved their factories to Europe this alone would result in the loss of thousands of jobs. These are good jobs as the average wage in the car industry is £36k.
    I cant believe that the British public would have knowingly voted to become poorer.
  • tai-gartai-gar Member Posts: 923
    The biggest concern of all would be the demise or loss of standing of the "City of London".
    The Toff's believe that they are invincible.
    However, the old adage "the bigger they are the harder they fall" could be a most unsatisfactory ending for the Country.
  • StayOrGoStayOrGo Member Posts: 11,338
    edited May 2018
    Unfortunately on the day of the referendum, ignorance and prejudice won the day over reason, tolerance and compassion.

    I am not saying that all that voted leave come under the above bracket, but there were enough that did to sway the vote.

    Just my opinion of course. :=)
  • stokefcstokefc Member Posts: 5,092
    edited May 2018
    52% of the vote 18 million votes wasn't it that's alot of prejudice and ignorance
    I voted out and I'm not prejudice I may be ignorant I don't do politics I just wanted out hoping to upset the Applecart
    Plus when you've got nowt how much worse can it get
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