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Brexit

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    Boris Johnson 'plans full customs and border checks on EU goods after Brexit'





    Prime Minister Boris Johnson is preparing to impose full customs and border checks on all European goods entering the UK after Brexit, in an attempt to ramp up pressure on the bloc in trade talks, according to reports.
    "We are planning full checks on all EU imports - export declarations, security declarations, animal health checks and all supermarket goods to pass through Border Inspections Posts," The Telegraph quoted a senior government source as saying.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/boris-johnson-plans-full-customs-and-border-checks-on-eu-goods-after-brexit/ar-BBZxdBy?ocid=spartandhp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    tai-gar said:

    madprof said:

    image

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    ^^^^^

    @madprof

    Well said, & I agree 100%.

    And let's not forget when it comes to us being shown in a bad light, we had that utter conman & buffoon Farage making us cringe with embarrassment every time he made a speech at the EU. At least we will be spared that now.

    We will, although I cant see him just disappearing, as he loves the limelight.
    I think most here agree which orifice he should disappear into.

    That will be the same one that he talks through.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    ^^^^^

    @madprof

    Well said, & I agree 100%.

    And let's not forget when it comes to us being shown in a bad light, we had that utter conman & buffoon Farage making us cringe with embarrassment every time he made a speech at the EU. At least we will be spared that now.

    We will, although I cant see him just disappearing, as he loves the limelight.
    He always disappears. Then comes back, with the same old schtick. That is why he would love yet another referendum. So he could pretend he is somehow relevant.
    What I find disturbing is the number of people that actually listen to his nonsense.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    Boris did get Brexit done, then?













    Many of Sunday's papers highlight what they see as a toughening of Britain's position in negotiations with the EU over the future relationship.
    The Observer says that no sooner had the Union Flags been lowered in Brussels and Strasbourg, than Boris Johnson was preparing to launch the UK into yet another uncompromising battle with the remaining 27 nations.
    "Boris tells EU: no more concessions", is the headline in the Sunday Express. It says the prime minister will - in his speech on Monday - set the tone for an assertive post-Brexit Britain, and demand that the bloc treats the UK as an equal.



    The Sunday Telegraph says the future relationship with the EU will involve some give-and-take, as all trade deals do, but the Europeans have to learn to respect Britain's new-found sovereignty.
    In the paper's view, the attitude in Brussels seems to be that because we were once a member, we should continue to act like a member.
    We left for a reason - to be free and to exploit the opportunities that accompany that freedom, the paper goes on. We are hardly likely to leave the EU only to go on acting like a member state, it adds.
    'Confident independent country'
    The Sunday Times' lead story reports that British diplomats have been ordered to make an immediate break with their former EU allies.
    A leaked document passed to the paper reveals that the Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, has told his officials to "sit separately" from their EU counterparts at international summits.
    In a telegram sent to UK overseas missions last week - the paper says - he told diplomats to ditch any ideas to "seek residual influence" with EU countries and "adopt a stance as a confident independent country" instead.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-51345055





  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    ^^^^^

    @madprof

    Well said, & I agree 100%.

    And let's not forget when it comes to us being shown in a bad light, we had that utter conman & buffoon Farage making us cringe with embarrassment every time he made a speech at the EU. At least we will be spared that now.

    His fans?




    A racist ‘Brexit Day’ poster demanding that residents speak the “Queen’s English” has been posted on “every floor” of a Norwich tower block.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/neighbours-horror-as-racist-happy-brexit-day-posters-put-up-in-norwich-tower-block/ar-BBZy9c2?ocid=spartandhp
    Brexit day needn’t be about loss – it gained us the title of ‘second-biggest laughing stock on the planet’, didn’t it?



    Now that we have left the EU – ​yes, I know there is a transition period – we are hearing copious predictions about all the things we are about to lose.
    Therefore, I thought it wise to mention the things we have actually gained over the last three and a half years to enable some balance.

    Firstly, mainly thanks to the woeful Theresa May, we have seen criminals empowered across our country, not only due to a lack of police numbers but also down to a creaking justice system from top to bottom.

    Next, we have gained a small army of emboldened vile racists. I am sure we have more casual racists also but it is the former we see on our screens and printed media, in my case I have seen them first-hand on College Green.

    Another gain is the gratitude of the kingpins in the egregious human trafficking racket. Now we are not in the club, why should France, Belgium and others help us any more than the bare minimum? Inextricably linked is the under-funded, under-supported and under-manned Border Force – human smugglers must be laughing.

    Last but not least, we have gained the epithet of the second biggest laughing stock in the developed world – no prizes for who is first. At least we can possibly lose this one quickly now that the execrable rabble, known as the Brexit Party, have left Brussels.

    Yes, to sum up, we have a lot to be proud of!


    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/brexit-day-boris-johnson-eu-chlorinated-chicken-bbc-a9311106.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    HAYSIE said:

    Well we have now left, but the proper negotiations are just about to start.

    For many people the last three and a half years have involved lots of head scratching.

    Brexit coincided with my retirement.

    I hadn't ever taken much interest in politics, but as I had much more time on my hands, I thought I would take some interest.

    This was primarily because after listening to the arguments put forward by both sides, it was immediately obvious that both sides couldn't be telling the truth.

    Both sides argued that we would be better off, if they won the referendum.

    I don't want to rerun the referendum, because we have already done that to death on this thread.

    Many members of the general public, that are less boring than me, seem unaware of the real choices that will have to be made. Although I am not setting myself up as some sort of Brexit expert, but I have been following the arguments.

    We will know the truth this time next year, maybe.

    The Brexit side have highlighted the benefits we could retain after leaving, while denying the obligations we would have to comply with in order to retain these benefits.

    The EU have referred to this as cherry picking, or wanting our cake and eating it. They will not allow it to happen.

    There has to be some backtracking on these claims, as negotiations are finalised.

    Boris swore that he would never agree to a border in the Irish Sea, yet that is what he has done.

    The amount of Single Market access we will be allowed, will be conditional upon how closely we stay aligned post Brexit.

    Boris has now made it clear that the UK will diverge, rather than remaining aligned.

    The more we diverge the less Single Market access we will get, and provide more friction at borders.

    More friction at borders causes severe problems for our manufacturing. Some of the car manufacturers get 300 trucks per day delivering stuff. So any delays will cause havoc.

    Boris spent the day in Sunderland yesterday. I wonder how the leave voters of Sunderland will feel about their leave vote when Nissan relocate, and they lose thousands of jobs. Maybe much the same as Swindon will feel post Honda, and Bridgend post Ford.

    Many of my head scratching moments have occurred while watching members of the public doing Brexit interviews on the telly. News Night were in Melton Mowbray the other night. They voted 58% in favour of leaving. Yet they were interviewing Farmers who were suggesting that their business would be screwed if there were no EU Migrants to pick their crops. So why did they vote leave?

    Even reporters seem to struggle, and start stuttering, when asked to illustrate likely improvements they expect to see in their own lives, post Brexit.

    People go on about Sovereignty, but can never seem to refer to the specific laws that the EU have imposed on us.

    We were members for 47 years, and along with France and Germany, played a leading role in shaping these laws. Many of which we can feel proud of.

    The EU have been responsible for valuable legislation in many areas, including the environment, workers rights, animal rights, and improving our fish stocks.

    Other head scratching moments occurred when Tory MPs that are questioned on Scottish Independence, comment that we are "stronger together", yet seem unable to apply the same argument to the EU.

    I think that Brexit will cause the break up of the UK, at some point.

    It will be interesting to see the actual results at this time next year.

    There is a school of thought that suggest that a Boris Brexit will damage the economy so much that there will no money to spend Up North on those that have been left behind, the NHS, or many other projects.


    Other head scratching moments.


    When discussing fishing, our side always points to the EU fishing in our waters, but always manages to forget that we also fish in theirs, and seem to ignore that we sell 70% of our catch in EU markets.
    So is there any advantage in stopping them fishing in our waters, if we lose the right to fish in theirs, and they stop buying our fish.

    Why do so many in the UK see Freedom of Movement merely as unwanted immigration, rather than our right to live, work, and study in Europe. Few people see the stopping of Freedom of Movement as losing some of our rights.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,833
    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,833
    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
    All that doesn't alter the fact that other non EU countries are able to meet J.I.T. deadlines,product testing etc,so I ask again,if other non EU countries can manage to supply goods to the EU,then why won't the UK be able to? Where are the miles of tailbacks currently in the EU now from all the non EU goods waiting to be checked and tested before being allowed in to the EU?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
    All that doesn't alter the fact that other non EU countries are able to meet J.I.T. deadlines,product testing etc,so I ask again,if other non EU countries can manage to supply goods to the EU,then why won't the UK be able to? Where are the miles of tailbacks currently in the EU now from all the non EU goods waiting to be checked and tested before being allowed in to the EU?
    As we are currently members the EU accept our testing, as non members they wont.
    The products that require testing by the EU, will obviously be delayed.
    The EU currently have free trade agreements with around 70 countries, so much of the stuff going in will have the rules, standards, and regulations already agreed.
    Many of the other EU members are very small countries that do a fraction of our trade.
    One of the problems we face is the volume of trade we do, and the lack of any infrastructure to support the imposition of border checks.
    Our side have been knocking up car parks away from the port, and talked of turning motorways into car parks, to enable checks to be carried out.
    Don't forget we have been members for nearly 50 years, so this will be a massive change.
    Imposing border checks where there were none before, must cause delays.
    A ten minute delay would not be noticeable if you had 6 trucks per day coming in, but cause havoc when there are 10,000.
    Had we stayed in the Single Market, and Customs Union there wouldn't be a problem.
    Nor if we remained closely aligned, which was Theresa Mays plan.
    Boris has a different plan.
    If we had a 10 year transition, and completely rebuilt the Port of Dover, we could perhaps minimise the problems.
    Going from no checks today, to checking everything tomorrow, will cause difficulties.
    Some of the trucks contain over 400 consignments of different products, and it is my understanding that Customs Officers specialise in particular products, rather than having all of them learning every regulation under the sun.
    This means one lorry may have to be checked by many officers.
    In addition each consignment will require a Customs Declaration, which in itself will cause delays, and incur extra costs.

    I suppose that the short answer to your question is that if a country like Germany were silly enough to leave the EU, and then stupid enough to follow the same path as Boris, the VW factory would be screwed.
    Whereas if they left, but remained closely aligned, very little would change.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Well we have now left, but the proper negotiations are just about to start.

    For many people the last three and a half years have involved lots of head scratching.

    Brexit coincided with my retirement.

    I hadn't ever taken much interest in politics, but as I had much more time on my hands, I thought I would take some interest.

    This was primarily because after listening to the arguments put forward by both sides, it was immediately obvious that both sides couldn't be telling the truth.

    Both sides argued that we would be better off, if they won the referendum.

    I don't want to rerun the referendum, because we have already done that to death on this thread.

    Many members of the general public, that are less boring than me, seem unaware of the real choices that will have to be made. Although I am not setting myself up as some sort of Brexit expert, but I have been following the arguments.

    We will know the truth this time next year, maybe.

    The Brexit side have highlighted the benefits we could retain after leaving, while denying the obligations we would have to comply with in order to retain these benefits.

    The EU have referred to this as cherry picking, or wanting our cake and eating it. They will not allow it to happen.

    There has to be some backtracking on these claims, as negotiations are finalised.

    Boris swore that he would never agree to a border in the Irish Sea, yet that is what he has done.

    The amount of Single Market access we will be allowed, will be conditional upon how closely we stay aligned post Brexit.

    Boris has now made it clear that the UK will diverge, rather than remaining aligned.

    The more we diverge the less Single Market access we will get, and provide more friction at borders.

    More friction at borders causes severe problems for our manufacturing. Some of the car manufacturers get 300 trucks per day delivering stuff. So any delays will cause havoc.

    Boris spent the day in Sunderland yesterday. I wonder how the leave voters of Sunderland will feel about their leave vote when Nissan relocate, and they lose thousands of jobs. Maybe much the same as Swindon will feel post Honda, and Bridgend post Ford.

    Many of my head scratching moments have occurred while watching members of the public doing Brexit interviews on the telly. News Night were in Melton Mowbray the other night. They voted 58% in favour of leaving. Yet they were interviewing Farmers who were suggesting that their business would be screwed if there were no EU Migrants to pick their crops. So why did they vote leave?

    Even reporters seem to struggle, and start stuttering, when asked to illustrate likely improvements they expect to see in their own lives, post Brexit.

    People go on about Sovereignty, but can never seem to refer to the specific laws that the EU have imposed on us.

    We were members for 47 years, and along with France and Germany, played a leading role in shaping these laws. Many of which we can feel proud of.

    The EU have been responsible for valuable legislation in many areas, including the environment, workers rights, animal rights, and improving our fish stocks.

    Other head scratching moments occurred when Tory MPs that are questioned on Scottish Independence, comment that we are "stronger together", yet seem unable to apply the same argument to the EU.

    I think that Brexit will cause the break up of the UK, at some point.

    It will be interesting to see the actual results at this time next year.

    There is a school of thought that suggest that a Boris Brexit will damage the economy so much that there will no money to spend Up North on those that have been left behind, the NHS, or many other projects.


    Other head scratching moments.


    When discussing fishing, our side always points to the EU fishing in our waters, but always manages to forget that we also fish in theirs, and seem to ignore that we sell 70% of our catch in EU markets.
    So is there any advantage in stopping them fishing in our waters, if we lose the right to fish in theirs, and they stop buying our fish.

    Why do so many in the UK see Freedom of Movement merely as unwanted immigration, rather than our right to live, work, and study in Europe. Few people see the stopping of Freedom of Movement as losing some of our rights.

  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,662
    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
    All that doesn't alter the fact that other non EU countries are able to meet J.I.T. deadlines,product testing etc,so I ask again,if other non EU countries can manage to supply goods to the EU,then why won't the UK be able to? Where are the miles of tailbacks currently in the EU now from all the non EU goods waiting to be checked and tested before being allowed in to the EU?
    As we are currently members the EU accept our testing, as non members they wont.
    The products that require testing by the EU, will obviously be delayed.
    The EU currently have free trade agreements with around 70 countries, so much of the stuff going in will have the rules, standards, and regulations already agreed.
    Many of the other EU members are very small countries that do a fraction of our trade.
    One of the problems we face is the volume of trade we do, and the lack of any infrastructure to support the imposition of border checks.
    Our side have been knocking up car parks away from the port, and talked of turning motorways into car parks, to enable checks to be carried out.
    Don't forget we have been members for nearly 50 years, so this will be a massive change.
    Imposing border checks where there were none before, must cause delays.
    A ten minute delay would not be noticeable if you had 6 trucks per day coming in, but cause havoc when there are 10,000.
    Had we stayed in the Single Market, and Customs Union there wouldn't be a problem.
    Nor if we remained closely aligned, which was Theresa Mays plan.
    Boris has a different plan.
    If we had a 10 year transition, and completely rebuilt the Port of Dover, we could perhaps minimise the problems.
    Going from no checks today, to checking everything tomorrow, will cause difficulties.
    Some of the trucks contain over 400 consignments of different products, and it is my understanding that Customs Officers specialise in particular products, rather than having all of them learning every regulation under the sun.
    This means one lorry may have to be checked by many officers.
    In addition each consignment will require a Customs Declaration, which in itself will cause delays, and incur extra costs.

    I suppose that the short answer to your question is that if a country like Germany were silly enough to leave the EU, and then stupid enough to follow the same path as Boris, the VW factory would be screwed.
    Whereas if they left, but remained closely aligned, very little would change.
    There has been too much talk about Dover (generally, not on this thread) and not enough about Britain's most important port for trade-Felixstowe.

    In the West of Western Europe, there are 2 major container ports: Europoort (Rotterdam) and Felixstowe. Felixstowe is responsible for 48% of the UK's container trade.

    Felixstowe is facing 2 massive problems, which are being completely ignored.

    Firstly, a lot of Felixstowe's trade is international for both import and export, and often for the same goods. Any cargo destined partly/wholly for other countries is far more likely to use Europoort in the future, as it will be far simpler logistically. The Port of Felixstowe is not British-owned

    The 2nd problem is something you couldn't make up. Unlike almost all other Western European countries we do not have a nationalised Railway. East Anglia's franchise is run by Abellio. The trading name of the Dutch National Railway. Due to "new trains" not being "able to read the signals" the Felixstowe-Ipswich line has been out of service more than any other line in the region. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but leaving a major part of the freight service in the hands of our biggest competitor (on a contract til 2025 without any apparent safeguards) is folly.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,833
    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
    All that doesn't alter the fact that other non EU countries are able to meet J.I.T. deadlines,product testing etc,so I ask again,if other non EU countries can manage to supply goods to the EU,then why won't the UK be able to? Where are the miles of tailbacks currently in the EU now from all the non EU goods waiting to be checked and tested before being allowed in to the EU?
    As we are currently members the EU accept our testing, as non members they wont.
    The products that require testing by the EU, will obviously be delayed.
    The EU currently have free trade agreements with around 70 countries, so much of the stuff going in will have the rules, standards, and regulations already agreed.
    Many of the other EU members are very small countries that do a fraction of our trade.
    One of the problems we face is the volume of trade we do, and the lack of any infrastructure to support the imposition of border checks.
    Our side have been knocking up car parks away from the port, and talked of turning motorways into car parks, to enable checks to be carried out.
    Don't forget we have been members for nearly 50 years, so this will be a massive change.
    Imposing border checks where there were none before, must cause delays.
    A ten minute delay would not be noticeable if you had 6 trucks per day coming in, but cause havoc when there are 10,000.
    Had we stayed in the Single Market, and Customs Union there wouldn't be a problem.
    Nor if we remained closely aligned, which was Theresa Mays plan.
    Boris has a different plan.
    If we had a 10 year transition, and completely rebuilt the Port of Dover, we could perhaps minimise the problems.
    Going from no checks today, to checking everything tomorrow, will cause difficulties.
    Some of the trucks contain over 400 consignments of different products, and it is my understanding that Customs Officers specialise in particular products, rather than having all of them learning every regulation under the sun.
    This means one lorry may have to be checked by many officers.
    In addition each consignment will require a Customs Declaration, which in itself will cause delays, and incur extra costs.

    I suppose that the short answer to your question is that if a country like Germany were silly enough to leave the EU, and then stupid enough to follow the same path as Boris, the VW factory would be screwed.
    Whereas if they left, but remained closely aligned, very little would change.
    Your analysis is as always informative and explains the situation in easy to understand terms.I was taking the VW factory as an example as it got me thinking when I watched the programme.My thinking is that if the Asian,American,South American etc markets can supply the EU with the many thousands of containers daily without there being any significant delays,then why would the UK encounter problems when doing the same? I'm assuming the goods that non EU countries import into the EU must have,at one point in time,been inspected/tested and that each and every container now entering the EU is not held for inspection/testing.If that were the case then not only would the EU but the worldwide import/export trade business would also be in a disastrous state.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
    All that doesn't alter the fact that other non EU countries are able to meet J.I.T. deadlines,product testing etc,so I ask again,if other non EU countries can manage to supply goods to the EU,then why won't the UK be able to? Where are the miles of tailbacks currently in the EU now from all the non EU goods waiting to be checked and tested before being allowed in to the EU?
    As we are currently members the EU accept our testing, as non members they wont.
    The products that require testing by the EU, will obviously be delayed.
    The EU currently have free trade agreements with around 70 countries, so much of the stuff going in will have the rules, standards, and regulations already agreed.
    Many of the other EU members are very small countries that do a fraction of our trade.
    One of the problems we face is the volume of trade we do, and the lack of any infrastructure to support the imposition of border checks.
    Our side have been knocking up car parks away from the port, and talked of turning motorways into car parks, to enable checks to be carried out.
    Don't forget we have been members for nearly 50 years, so this will be a massive change.
    Imposing border checks where there were none before, must cause delays.
    A ten minute delay would not be noticeable if you had 6 trucks per day coming in, but cause havoc when there are 10,000.
    Had we stayed in the Single Market, and Customs Union there wouldn't be a problem.
    Nor if we remained closely aligned, which was Theresa Mays plan.
    Boris has a different plan.
    If we had a 10 year transition, and completely rebuilt the Port of Dover, we could perhaps minimise the problems.
    Going from no checks today, to checking everything tomorrow, will cause difficulties.
    Some of the trucks contain over 400 consignments of different products, and it is my understanding that Customs Officers specialise in particular products, rather than having all of them learning every regulation under the sun.
    This means one lorry may have to be checked by many officers.
    In addition each consignment will require a Customs Declaration, which in itself will cause delays, and incur extra costs.

    I suppose that the short answer to your question is that if a country like Germany were silly enough to leave the EU, and then stupid enough to follow the same path as Boris, the VW factory would be screwed.
    Whereas if they left, but remained closely aligned, very little would change.
    There has been too much talk about Dover (generally, not on this thread) and not enough about Britain's most important port for trade-Felixstowe.

    In the West of Western Europe, there are 2 major container ports: Europoort (Rotterdam) and Felixstowe. Felixstowe is responsible for 48% of the UK's container trade.

    Felixstowe is facing 2 massive problems, which are being completely ignored.

    Firstly, a lot of Felixstowe's trade is international for both import and export, and often for the same goods. Any cargo destined partly/wholly for other countries is far more likely to use Europoort in the future, as it will be far simpler logistically. The Port of Felixstowe is not British-owned

    The 2nd problem is something you couldn't make up. Unlike almost all other Western European countries we do not have a nationalised Railway. East Anglia's franchise is run by Abellio. The trading name of the Dutch National Railway. Due to "new trains" not being "able to read the signals" the Felixstowe-Ipswich line has been out of service more than any other line in the region. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but leaving a major part of the freight service in the hands of our biggest competitor (on a contract til 2025 without any apparent safeguards) is folly.
    I didn't know that.

    Despite many people believing the opposite, we aren't very good at organising anything very much.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,662
    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
    All that doesn't alter the fact that other non EU countries are able to meet J.I.T. deadlines,product testing etc,so I ask again,if other non EU countries can manage to supply goods to the EU,then why won't the UK be able to? Where are the miles of tailbacks currently in the EU now from all the non EU goods waiting to be checked and tested before being allowed in to the EU?
    As we are currently members the EU accept our testing, as non members they wont.
    The products that require testing by the EU, will obviously be delayed.
    The EU currently have free trade agreements with around 70 countries, so much of the stuff going in will have the rules, standards, and regulations already agreed.
    Many of the other EU members are very small countries that do a fraction of our trade.
    One of the problems we face is the volume of trade we do, and the lack of any infrastructure to support the imposition of border checks.
    Our side have been knocking up car parks away from the port, and talked of turning motorways into car parks, to enable checks to be carried out.
    Don't forget we have been members for nearly 50 years, so this will be a massive change.
    Imposing border checks where there were none before, must cause delays.
    A ten minute delay would not be noticeable if you had 6 trucks per day coming in, but cause havoc when there are 10,000.
    Had we stayed in the Single Market, and Customs Union there wouldn't be a problem.
    Nor if we remained closely aligned, which was Theresa Mays plan.
    Boris has a different plan.
    If we had a 10 year transition, and completely rebuilt the Port of Dover, we could perhaps minimise the problems.
    Going from no checks today, to checking everything tomorrow, will cause difficulties.
    Some of the trucks contain over 400 consignments of different products, and it is my understanding that Customs Officers specialise in particular products, rather than having all of them learning every regulation under the sun.
    This means one lorry may have to be checked by many officers.
    In addition each consignment will require a Customs Declaration, which in itself will cause delays, and incur extra costs.

    I suppose that the short answer to your question is that if a country like Germany were silly enough to leave the EU, and then stupid enough to follow the same path as Boris, the VW factory would be screwed.
    Whereas if they left, but remained closely aligned, very little would change.
    Your analysis is as always informative and explains the situation in easy to understand terms.I was taking the VW factory as an example as it got me thinking when I watched the programme.My thinking is that if the Asian,American,South American etc markets can supply the EU with the many thousands of containers daily without there being any significant delays,then why would the UK encounter problems when doing the same? I'm assuming the goods that non EU countries import into the EU must have,at one point in time,been inspected/tested and that each and every container now entering the EU is not held for inspection/testing.If that were the case then not only would the EU but the worldwide import/export trade business would also be in a disastrous state.
    This may come as a surprise, but I believe it is the case that the UK export considerably more goods to the EU-27 than the USA export to the EU by value. The extra trade from outside the (new) EU is going to be massive.

    In addition, the US export more to the UK than any of the remaining EU countries.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,833
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
    All that doesn't alter the fact that other non EU countries are able to meet J.I.T. deadlines,product testing etc,so I ask again,if other non EU countries can manage to supply goods to the EU,then why won't the UK be able to? Where are the miles of tailbacks currently in the EU now from all the non EU goods waiting to be checked and tested before being allowed in to the EU?
    As we are currently members the EU accept our testing, as non members they wont.
    The products that require testing by the EU, will obviously be delayed.
    The EU currently have free trade agreements with around 70 countries, so much of the stuff going in will have the rules, standards, and regulations already agreed.
    Many of the other EU members are very small countries that do a fraction of our trade.
    One of the problems we face is the volume of trade we do, and the lack of any infrastructure to support the imposition of border checks.
    Our side have been knocking up car parks away from the port, and talked of turning motorways into car parks, to enable checks to be carried out.
    Don't forget we have been members for nearly 50 years, so this will be a massive change.
    Imposing border checks where there were none before, must cause delays.
    A ten minute delay would not be noticeable if you had 6 trucks per day coming in, but cause havoc when there are 10,000.
    Had we stayed in the Single Market, and Customs Union there wouldn't be a problem.
    Nor if we remained closely aligned, which was Theresa Mays plan.
    Boris has a different plan.
    If we had a 10 year transition, and completely rebuilt the Port of Dover, we could perhaps minimise the problems.
    Going from no checks today, to checking everything tomorrow, will cause difficulties.
    Some of the trucks contain over 400 consignments of different products, and it is my understanding that Customs Officers specialise in particular products, rather than having all of them learning every regulation under the sun.
    This means one lorry may have to be checked by many officers.
    In addition each consignment will require a Customs Declaration, which in itself will cause delays, and incur extra costs.

    I suppose that the short answer to your question is that if a country like Germany were silly enough to leave the EU, and then stupid enough to follow the same path as Boris, the VW factory would be screwed.
    Whereas if they left, but remained closely aligned, very little would change.
    There has been too much talk about Dover (generally, not on this thread) and not enough about Britain's most important port for trade-Felixstowe.

    In the West of Western Europe, there are 2 major container ports: Europoort (Rotterdam) and Felixstowe. Felixstowe is responsible for 48% of the UK's container trade.

    Felixstowe is facing 2 massive problems, which are being completely ignored.

    Firstly, a lot of Felixstowe's trade is international for both import and export, and often for the same goods. Any cargo destined partly/wholly for other countries is far more likely to use Europoort in the future, as it will be far simpler logistically. The Port of Felixstowe is not British-owned

    The 2nd problem is something you couldn't make up. Unlike almost all other Western European countries we do not have a nationalised Railway. East Anglia's franchise is run by Abellio. The trading name of the Dutch National Railway. Due to "new trains" not being "able to read the signals" the Felixstowe-Ipswich line has been out of service more than any other line in the region. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but leaving a major part of the freight service in the hands of our biggest competitor (on a contract til 2025 without any apparent safeguards) is folly.
    Seems that someone had the foresight to plan ahead.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gateway




  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,533
    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    I recently watched Richard Hammond's new series Big,the first episode was 'The Worlds Biggest Car Factory' the VW factory in Germany.As with similar manufacturers they operate on the 'Just In Time' system.It explained that a hatchback car uses 10,000 components from 2,600 suppliers spread across the world,not just within the EU.If other countries outside of the EU can meet the J.I.T. delivery deadlines,why do people assume that the U.K. will not be able to meet such timelines? The whole world does not revolve around the E.U. they are just a cog in the global scheme,who has to cooperate worldwide for it to work.

    Firstly the EU is the largest trading bloc in the world.
    Secondly the EU have rules and regulations which all members have to comply with.
    For instance the finished car must have 50plus % of components that are manufactured within the EU.
    Germany will have their own rules on how they deal with non EU imports.
    The Germans are certainly much more efficient than we are.
    As long as the finished car complies with the regulations the EU will be happy.
    We currently have frictionless trade with the EU, however Boris is embarking on a course that will put an end to this.
    Customs checks, and additional paperwork will definitely cause delays at the border, and increase costs.
    Ten thousand trucks per day pass through Dover alone.
    They were estimating that a 10 minute delay would cause 17 mile tailbacks.
    The EU will not recognise our product testing after we have left, this will cause longer delays for some products, while they await testing on the EU side of the border.
    The path that Boris had chosen will screw up our automotive industry.
    He could have chosen a different path that would have allowed frictionless trade to continue.

    This will be our fault, and the EU should not be blamed.

    If there was a VW factory of a similar size in the UK, we would probably direct the world wide parts to a particular port, and prioritise the customs clearance, ensuring no friction, and causing no delays.

    Germany export something like five times as much to China as we do, while remaining members of the EU, because they are better at it.
    All that doesn't alter the fact that other non EU countries are able to meet J.I.T. deadlines,product testing etc,so I ask again,if other non EU countries can manage to supply goods to the EU,then why won't the UK be able to? Where are the miles of tailbacks currently in the EU now from all the non EU goods waiting to be checked and tested before being allowed in to the EU?
    As we are currently members the EU accept our testing, as non members they wont.
    The products that require testing by the EU, will obviously be delayed.
    The EU currently have free trade agreements with around 70 countries, so much of the stuff going in will have the rules, standards, and regulations already agreed.
    Many of the other EU members are very small countries that do a fraction of our trade.
    One of the problems we face is the volume of trade we do, and the lack of any infrastructure to support the imposition of border checks.
    Our side have been knocking up car parks away from the port, and talked of turning motorways into car parks, to enable checks to be carried out.
    Don't forget we have been members for nearly 50 years, so this will be a massive change.
    Imposing border checks where there were none before, must cause delays.
    A ten minute delay would not be noticeable if you had 6 trucks per day coming in, but cause havoc when there are 10,000.
    Had we stayed in the Single Market, and Customs Union there wouldn't be a problem.
    Nor if we remained closely aligned, which was Theresa Mays plan.
    Boris has a different plan.
    If we had a 10 year transition, and completely rebuilt the Port of Dover, we could perhaps minimise the problems.
    Going from no checks today, to checking everything tomorrow, will cause difficulties.
    Some of the trucks contain over 400 consignments of different products, and it is my understanding that Customs Officers specialise in particular products, rather than having all of them learning every regulation under the sun.
    This means one lorry may have to be checked by many officers.
    In addition each consignment will require a Customs Declaration, which in itself will cause delays, and incur extra costs.

    I suppose that the short answer to your question is that if a country like Germany were silly enough to leave the EU, and then stupid enough to follow the same path as Boris, the VW factory would be screwed.
    Whereas if they left, but remained closely aligned, very little would change.
    Your analysis is as always informative and explains the situation in easy to understand terms.I was taking the VW factory as an example as it got me thinking when I watched the programme.My thinking is that if the Asian,American,South American etc markets can supply the EU with the many thousands of containers daily without there being any significant delays,then why would the UK encounter problems when doing the same? I'm assuming the goods that non EU countries import into the EU must have,at one point in time,been inspected/tested and that each and every container now entering the EU is not held for inspection/testing.If that were the case then not only would the EU but the worldwide import/export trade business would also be in a disastrous state.
    I thought the VW factory was brilliant, and reflected the super efficiency we have come to expect from the Germans.
    To manufacture a car every 16 seconds is incredible, and shows that amazing things can be accomplished, if they are well organised.
    Although, I would suspect that it resembles car factories the world over, but on a much larger scale.
    On this scale, any delays will cost a fortune.
    I suspect that our car factories are very efficient at present, but Boris seems intent on destroying them.
    This could be avoided.


    Any amount of checks can be accomplished quickly, with the right amount of qualified people, and the space in which the checks can be carried out.
    We don't have either.
    While we have been members it has all worked perfectly for us.
    Boris could have chosen to continue frictionless trade, but hasn't.
    It is not just about leaving, it is also about how we leave.
    The chaos will be a choice that Boris has opted for.
    Around 40% of our fresh food comes from the EU, delays and fresh food don't mix well.
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