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Brexit

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  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894










    The government's decision to ban mass gatherings is described by the Guardian, the Financial Times and the Daily Telegraph as a "U-turn" by Prime Minister Boris Johnson, just 24 hours after he insisted he would not follow Scotland's lead in doing so.
    The Telegraph quotes Whitehall sources admitting the coronavirus situation was now "accelerating very quickly". It says events such as Wimbledon, Glastonbury Festival and the Grand National could be axed, with new laws allowing the government to pay them compensation.
    The Financial Times says the policy reversal follows growing pressure for the UK to move further into the "delay" phase of its action plan after other European countries took much tougher measures. For the Guardian, Mr Johnson's "cautious approach" was taken after "the most dramatic day of the crisis so far".




    The Times suggests that police will be able to detain infected people, and schools and nurseries could be forced to stay open, as part of a package of emergency powers to be introduced next week. The paper says councils will be allowed to "lower standards in care homes" to cope with staff shortages, and there will also be measures to speed up cremations and burials.
    The Times adds that ministers believe the virus will infect the majority of the population, and the new laws are likely to stay in place for two years.
    According to the Daily Mail, hospitals could "stop treating" the most severely ill victims of coronavirus as the outbreak escalates. It says new intensive care guidelines being drawn up could even mean that patients with a "poor prognosis" are "taken off ventilators in favour of those with better survival chances". The Mail says that doctors are already reporting that wards look like "war zones".
    "Virus Wipes Out Sport," the Daily Mirror declares, referring to sport being "crippled", fears of big job losses and football clubs being "driven to the wall". The Mirror, the Daily Express and the Daily Star all raise the prospect that the domestic football season might have to be abandoned.



    According to the online Independent, Europe's football authorities are braced for a "total shutdown" until at least September. It quotes a source close to high-level talks dismissing the idea that matches might resume early next month as "ludicrous".
    The Sun leads on a story about a newborn baby who it says tested positive for the virus within minutes of being born at a hospital in London. The child's mother had been rushed there with "suspected pneumonia". They are now being treated at separate hospitals. The paper declares the baby the "world's youngest victim".
    The Daily Express suggests that a team of scientists at Imperial College London are "on the brink" of developing a vaccine to combat the virus. A scientist tells the paper it has worked "really well" when tested on mice. But the paper adds that even if clinical trials proceed as well as the team hope, a vaccine would not be available for patients for another year.


    Elsewhere, there's considerable disquiet about the government's strategy of allowing the country to develop so-called "herd immunity" - when enough people have resistance to make it much harder for a virus to spread.
    The Daily Mirror highlights comments made by the UK's chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, that around 60% of the population would need to get Covid-19 for the UK to establish "herd immunity". He also said the illness was likely to become an annual seasonal infection.





    In her column in the i, the Spectator's deputy political editor, Katy Balls, says many Tories are "twitchy" about this "high stakes" strategy. "Most people want a chance to stay healthy", an unnamed backbencher is quoted as saying.




    In other news, the Sun is among a number of papers to report that the actors union, Equity, has apologised to actor Laurence Fox and agreed an out-of-court settlement for calling him a "disgrace to our industry". Equity's minority ethnic members' committee had criticised him over comments he made on the BBC's Question Time programme in January.
    The actor had argued that the media's treatment of the Duchess of Sussex was not racist, and that it was racist for an audience member to label him "a white privileged male". However, the Guardian says the entire committee has resigned in protest at Equity's apology.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-51883515




















    Brexit will not be delayed by coronavirus, says Johnson
    Spokesman says there are no plans to extend transition period beyond end of December




    Boris Johnson is adamant the Brexit transition period will close at the end of December, despite the risk of the Covid-19 crisis disrupting negotiations, his spokesman has said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/13/brexit-will-not-be-delayed-by-coronavirus-says-johnson













  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Money no longer matters, not now Rishi Sunak wants to ‘get it done’
    What’s £350m a week anyway, now that the chancellor has turned on cash taps?​




    Coronavirus? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    The NHS? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    Small businesses? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.

    Climate change? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.


    Beer, wine, petrol, cider, potholes, tampons, flood defences, the A303, plastic, blue-sky thinking, electric cars, national insurance, VAT, the Pant-Llanymynech bypass, broadband, railways, further education? Rishi Sunak is getting them all done, done, done, done done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done and done.



    This Budget will do little to reverse the impact of austerity
    Is there an odd job you’ve just not got round to? My firm advice would be to hang around outside the Treasury building, mention it to Sunak and it’ll be in next year’s budget speech at the very latest. “Regrouting Ian from Cricklewood’s bathroom? PaintinDave’s mum’s shed? This government is getting it done.”

    Oh to be married to Sunak. “Rishi, it’s bi-
    “Taking out the bins? Your husband is getting it done.”
    It helps that Sunak, with his pipe-cleaner arms, obsequious smile, and hair like its been carefully combed by his mum for the annual school photo, bears every outward resemblance to a very small boy.


    Because it helped to lend Budget 2020 its crucial fairy story feel. With his first wish, Sunak got the job of his dreams. With his second, Sunak got the ultimate dream of every former Goldman Sachs banker – infinite money.

    The phrase “getting it done” made around 21 appearances. Only one phrase, or one word outdid it, and that was “billion” which appeared fully 47 times.
    I have done my very best to add up the numbers attached to these 47 appearances, and I think the answer is, at least £972bn and at most, well, infinity.

    The NHS, will be given “millions, billions, whatever it takes” to deal with coronavirus, he said. There is suddenly no amount of money for the NHS which cannot be found, which for those of us who had to listen to Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have soul-crushing, point-scoring arguments about it for what felt like a thousand years, is particularly annoying.
    Though less annoying, one imagines, than for the parents of a small boy with pneumonia being kept warm by a pile of anoraks on the floor of a Leeds hospital, whose existence Boris Johnson tried to wish away by nicking a reporter’s phone and putting it in his pocket.


    Still, that no expense will be spared to deal with coronavirus is reassuring in its way.
    At a generous estimate, Sunak spoke around 60 yards away from Nadine Dorries’ office door, that has now been crossed with police tape and marked “Covid-19 ​– Do Not Enter”.
    Were this any other workplace, it is very hard to believe it would not have been shut down.
    This was not so much the magic money tree budget as the magic forest.
    People who know a lot more about economics than me will tell you that countries aren’t like people. If you’ve got no money, you really can spend what you haven’t got and make yourself richer.

    For roughly a decade, Conservatives have laughed at this, by way of justification for stripping public services back to their bare bones and beyond, at the same time as doubling the national debt from £1 trillion to £2 trillion in the 10 years in which they have governed the country.

    Now, they cheered it on. It is four years since the people who now run the country, convinced the voters to say yes to an ideological cause that has cost us, so far, an estimated £600bn in lost economic growth. There is also a coronavirus recession looming on the horizon, and yet now really does appear to be the moment that money has ceased to be an object.
    A £30bn fiscal stimulus, £175bn “for our future prosperity”, £5bn of “export loans for businesses”, a £1.4bn science and research institute, £22bn on “R and D”, £5.2bn on flood defences. It was like watching some sort of weird hyper-inflated Saturday night game show. Whatever it was, Sunak had a billion quid to throw at it.

    Of course, the most entertaining part of any Budget Day is never the Budget itself (obviously) but the time it takes for it to collapse afterwards, for which George Osborne’s 2012 effort still holds the record, though Philip Hammond ran him close a few times.

    This one certainly had its moment.
    “For the first time ever,” Sunak said, “the billions of pounds we would have sent to the EU, we can now spend on our priorities.”

    The Budget’s red book contains a line on that. In year one, ie this year, that number is £4.1bn. In five years time, there is a very slim chance it might be as high as £14bn, or, £269m a week. Not bad, but even by the government’s own estimates, it is significantly smaller than the very big lie down the side of a bus that probably once drove through a town near you.
    Asked specifically about this, a government spokesperson made clear that comparing the two figures is a “false equivalence”. Yes, that’s right. Comparing the money we said we’d get back from the EU to the money we actually are getting back from the EU, is completely not on. Apparently, this is because it doesn’t take into account the vast amounts of cash UK negotiators have since agreed to pay the EU in various divorce settlements. So now you know. It’s fine to tell lies as long as they’re so big that nobody believes them.
    The only available coping strategy is laughter. And what’s £350m a week anyway, now that Sunak’s turned on the money hose?
    Traditionally, at the end of Budget Day, the Treasury team go to the Two Chairmen pub in Westminster for a well-earned pint. Beer duty may have been frozen, but if the landlord has any sense, he’ll up the price of a pint of Broadside to at least £1bn. Sunak won’t even blink.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/budget-rishi-sunak-spending-get-done-brexit-boris-johnson-a9395171.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
    Sure. What’s the Boris Brexit deal again?
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Money no longer matters, not now Rishi Sunak wants to ‘get it done’
    What’s £350m a week anyway, now that the chancellor has turned on cash taps?​




    Coronavirus? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    The NHS? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    Small businesses? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.

    Climate change? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.


    Beer, wine, petrol, cider, potholes, tampons, flood defences, the A303, plastic, blue-sky thinking, electric cars, national insurance, VAT, the Pant-Llanymynech bypass, broadband, railways, further education? Rishi Sunak is getting them all done, done, done, done done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done and done.



    This Budget will do little to reverse the impact of austerity
    Is there an odd job you’ve just not got round to? My firm advice would be to hang around outside the Treasury building, mention it to Sunak and it’ll be in next year’s budget speech at the very latest. “Regrouting Ian from Cricklewood’s bathroom? PaintinDave’s mum’s shed? This government is getting it done.”

    Oh to be married to Sunak. “Rishi, it’s bi-
    “Taking out the bins? Your husband is getting it done.”
    It helps that Sunak, with his pipe-cleaner arms, obsequious smile, and hair like its been carefully combed by his mum for the annual school photo, bears every outward resemblance to a very small boy.


    Because it helped to lend Budget 2020 its crucial fairy story feel. With his first wish, Sunak got the job of his dreams. With his second, Sunak got the ultimate dream of every former Goldman Sachs banker – infinite money.

    The phrase “getting it done” made around 21 appearances. Only one phrase, or one word outdid it, and that was “billion” which appeared fully 47 times.
    I have done my very best to add up the numbers attached to these 47 appearances, and I think the answer is, at least £972bn and at most, well, infinity.

    The NHS, will be given “millions, billions, whatever it takes” to deal with coronavirus, he said. There is suddenly no amount of money for the NHS which cannot be found, which for those of us who had to listen to Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have soul-crushing, point-scoring arguments about it for what felt like a thousand years, is particularly annoying.
    Though less annoying, one imagines, than for the parents of a small boy with pneumonia being kept warm by a pile of anoraks on the floor of a Leeds hospital, whose existence Boris Johnson tried to wish away by nicking a reporter’s phone and putting it in his pocket.


    Still, that no expense will be spared to deal with coronavirus is reassuring in its way.
    At a generous estimate, Sunak spoke around 60 yards away from Nadine Dorries’ office door, that has now been crossed with police tape and marked “Covid-19 ​– Do Not Enter”.
    Were this any other workplace, it is very hard to believe it would not have been shut down.
    This was not so much the magic money tree budget as the magic forest.
    People who know a lot more about economics than me will tell you that countries aren’t like people. If you’ve got no money, you really can spend what you haven’t got and make yourself richer.

    For roughly a decade, Conservatives have laughed at this, by way of justification for stripping public services back to their bare bones and beyond, at the same time as doubling the national debt from £1 trillion to £2 trillion in the 10 years in which they have governed the country.

    Now, they cheered it on. It is four years since the people who now run the country, convinced the voters to say yes to an ideological cause that has cost us, so far, an estimated £600bn in lost economic growth. There is also a coronavirus recession looming on the horizon, and yet now really does appear to be the moment that money has ceased to be an object.
    A £30bn fiscal stimulus, £175bn “for our future prosperity”, £5bn of “export loans for businesses”, a £1.4bn science and research institute, £22bn on “R and D”, £5.2bn on flood defences. It was like watching some sort of weird hyper-inflated Saturday night game show. Whatever it was, Sunak had a billion quid to throw at it.

    Of course, the most entertaining part of any Budget Day is never the Budget itself (obviously) but the time it takes for it to collapse afterwards, for which George Osborne’s 2012 effort still holds the record, though Philip Hammond ran him close a few times.

    This one certainly had its moment.
    “For the first time ever,” Sunak said, “the billions of pounds we would have sent to the EU, we can now spend on our priorities.”

    The Budget’s red book contains a line on that. In year one, ie this year, that number is £4.1bn. In five years time, there is a very slim chance it might be as high as £14bn, or, £269m a week. Not bad, but even by the government’s own estimates, it is significantly smaller than the very big lie down the side of a bus that probably once drove through a town near you.
    Asked specifically about this, a government spokesperson made clear that comparing the two figures is a “false equivalence”. Yes, that’s right. Comparing the money we said we’d get back from the EU to the money we actually are getting back from the EU, is completely not on. Apparently, this is because it doesn’t take into account the vast amounts of cash UK negotiators have since agreed to pay the EU in various divorce settlements. So now you know. It’s fine to tell lies as long as they’re so big that nobody believes them.
    The only available coping strategy is laughter. And what’s £350m a week anyway, now that Sunak’s turned on the money hose?
    Traditionally, at the end of Budget Day, the Treasury team go to the Two Chairmen pub in Westminster for a well-earned pint. Beer duty may have been frozen, but if the landlord has any sense, he’ll up the price of a pint of Broadside to at least £1bn. Sunak won’t even blink.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/budget-rishi-sunak-spending-get-done-brexit-boris-johnson-a9395171.html
    The Independent is a Mickey Mouse
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Money no longer matters, not now Rishi Sunak wants to ‘get it done’
    What’s £350m a week anyway, now that the chancellor has turned on cash taps?​




    Coronavirus? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    The NHS? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    Small businesses? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.

    Climate change? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.


    Beer, wine, petrol, cider, potholes, tampons, flood defences, the A303, plastic, blue-sky thinking, electric cars, national insurance, VAT, the Pant-Llanymynech bypass, broadband, railways, further education? Rishi Sunak is getting them all done, done, done, done done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done and done.



    This Budget will do little to reverse the impact of austerity
    Is there an odd job you’ve just not got round to? My firm advice would be to hang around outside the Treasury building, mention it to Sunak and it’ll be in next year’s budget speech at the very latest. “Regrouting Ian from Cricklewood’s bathroom? PaintinDave’s mum’s shed? This government is getting it done.”

    Oh to be married to Sunak. “Rishi, it’s bi-
    “Taking out the bins? Your husband is getting it done.”
    It helps that Sunak, with his pipe-cleaner arms, obsequious smile, and hair like its been carefully combed by his mum for the annual school photo, bears every outward resemblance to a very small boy.


    Because it helped to lend Budget 2020 its crucial fairy story feel. With his first wish, Sunak got the job of his dreams. With his second, Sunak got the ultimate dream of every former Goldman Sachs banker – infinite money.

    The phrase “getting it done” made around 21 appearances. Only one phrase, or one word outdid it, and that was “billion” which appeared fully 47 times.
    I have done my very best to add up the numbers attached to these 47 appearances, and I think the answer is, at least £972bn and at most, well, infinity.

    The NHS, will be given “millions, billions, whatever it takes” to deal with coronavirus, he said. There is suddenly no amount of money for the NHS which cannot be found, which for those of us who had to listen to Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have soul-crushing, point-scoring arguments about it for what felt like a thousand years, is particularly annoying.
    Though less annoying, one imagines, than for the parents of a small boy with pneumonia being kept warm by a pile of anoraks on the floor of a Leeds hospital, whose existence Boris Johnson tried to wish away by nicking a reporter’s phone and putting it in his pocket.


    Still, that no expense will be spared to deal with coronavirus is reassuring in its way.
    At a generous estimate, Sunak spoke around 60 yards away from Nadine Dorries’ office door, that has now been crossed with police tape and marked “Covid-19 ​– Do Not Enter”.
    Were this any other workplace, it is very hard to believe it would not have been shut down.
    This was not so much the magic money tree budget as the magic forest.
    People who know a lot more about economics than me will tell you that countries aren’t like people. If you’ve got no money, you really can spend what you haven’t got and make yourself richer.

    For roughly a decade, Conservatives have laughed at this, by way of justification for stripping public services back to their bare bones and beyond, at the same time as doubling the national debt from £1 trillion to £2 trillion in the 10 years in which they have governed the country.

    Now, they cheered it on. It is four years since the people who now run the country, convinced the voters to say yes to an ideological cause that has cost us, so far, an estimated £600bn in lost economic growth. There is also a coronavirus recession looming on the horizon, and yet now really does appear to be the moment that money has ceased to be an object.
    A £30bn fiscal stimulus, £175bn “for our future prosperity”, £5bn of “export loans for businesses”, a £1.4bn science and research institute, £22bn on “R and D”, £5.2bn on flood defences. It was like watching some sort of weird hyper-inflated Saturday night game show. Whatever it was, Sunak had a billion quid to throw at it.

    Of course, the most entertaining part of any Budget Day is never the Budget itself (obviously) but the time it takes for it to collapse afterwards, for which George Osborne’s 2012 effort still holds the record, though Philip Hammond ran him close a few times.

    This one certainly had its moment.
    “For the first time ever,” Sunak said, “the billions of pounds we would have sent to the EU, we can now spend on our priorities.”

    The Budget’s red book contains a line on that. In year one, ie this year, that number is £4.1bn. In five years time, there is a very slim chance it might be as high as £14bn, or, £269m a week. Not bad, but even by the government’s own estimates, it is significantly smaller than the very big lie down the side of a bus that probably once drove through a town near you.
    Asked specifically about this, a government spokesperson made clear that comparing the two figures is a “false equivalence”. Yes, that’s right. Comparing the money we said we’d get back from the EU to the money we actually are getting back from the EU, is completely not on. Apparently, this is because it doesn’t take into account the vast amounts of cash UK negotiators have since agreed to pay the EU in various divorce settlements. So now you know. It’s fine to tell lies as long as they’re so big that nobody believes them.
    The only available coping strategy is laughter. And what’s £350m a week anyway, now that Sunak’s turned on the money hose?
    Traditionally, at the end of Budget Day, the Treasury team go to the Two Chairmen pub in Westminster for a well-earned pint. Beer duty may have been frozen, but if the landlord has any sense, he’ll up the price of a pint of Broadside to at least £1bn. Sunak won’t even blink.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/budget-rishi-sunak-spending-get-done-brexit-boris-johnson-a9395171.html
    The Independent is a Russian Newspaper. Apparently it makes excellent compost.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
    Sure. What’s the Boris Brexit deal again?
    We will see if your post is true.

    Do you think we should remain closely aligned and protect the economy, or diverge and purposely damage it?

    And why?

    Do you think Boris has a mandate to diverge?

    If so where from?

    Does leaving with a Norway plus deal, still amount to leaving?

    As we already conduct some checks between NI, and UK, which are done on the ferries to avoid delays. Do you think that in the light of the fact that we are about to employ 50,000 staff to process the additional post Brexit paperwork, in addition to a large number of extra Customs Officers. That we may have chosen to employ extra staff to carry out checks on the ferries, and therefore avoid delays, in order to avoid drug, and people smuggling, that this could have been implemented many years ago, and avoided any dead bodies turning up in trucks?

    Do you agree that we didn't need to leave the EU, to provide more protection for our borders?

    The Tory Party was fairly recently conducting an ABB campaign. This stood for anyone but Boris. What changed?

    Boris has made it clear that he will not extend the EU trade negotiations past the end of December. Do you agree with this?

    Or do you think he should focus on the best deal for the UK, however long that takes?

    Do you think we will attract many foreign manufacturers to the UK, post Brexit. Or do you think that they will be more likely to set up in Europe, to access a bigger market?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
    Sure. What’s the Boris Brexit deal again?
    What about this one?

    Put very simply.

    We have two choices.

    One causes lots of damage, the other very little damage.

    In either case lets assume that altering interest rates would cause an improvement.

    Surely you would have to choose the option that caused very little damage, and alter the interest rate.

    To argue that the alteration of interest rates somehow justifies choosing the option that caused the most damage, is very foolish.

    Boris has made a very foolish choice.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
    Sure. What’s the Boris Brexit deal again?








    This is quite frustrating, you don't seem able to get your head around the debate,

    This is a Brexit thread.

    I am debating the pitfalls of the Boris position on Brexit.

    You are avoiding this.

    I am arguing that Boris will cause damage to the economy because of the path he has chosen.

    He could have chosen a different path.

    He has no mandate for the path he has chosen.

    You wish to bring other measures into this debate.

    Even if raising or lowering interest rates were to mitigate this damage it is irrelevant to the argument.

    The debate is regarding the inevitable results of Mr Johnstones chosen path.

    Lets say he damages the economy by 5% of GDP, due to his divergence from the EU.

    Lets say that raising or lowering interest rates mitigates this by lets say 1% of GDP, it doesn't make the divergence the correct decision.

    The alignment or divergence is a debate on its own.

    Other measures that may mitigate the damage, are a different debate and irrelevant to this.

    I know you are not keen on facts, with the exception of Tony Blair being responsible for all the terrorism in the world.

    Here are a few facts.

    The closer we remain aligned to the EU, the more access we will be allowed to the Single Market.

    The more access we retain to the Single Market, the less jobs are at risk, and the least damage is caused to the economy.

    The more we diverge the less access we get to the SM.

    Boris has already chosen to diverge, and therefore cause the most damage possible to our economy.

    Whatever measures that may soften the blow, he has still chosen this path.

    If altering interest rates was a benefit, then this could be done, in addition to remaining aligned, and causing less damage.

    To argue that it is ok to take the path that caused the most damage, but altering interest rates may slightly improve the damage, is absolutely idiotic.

    This is the argument you seem to be making.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
    Sure. What’s the Boris Brexit deal again?

    You could also address this one, as you brought it up?




    It is no secret that we are an ageing population, and the NHS will need more funding to cover the increasing costs.

    The loss of beds, staff, and cutbacks in social care have added pressure to the smooth running of the service.

    The NHS has also faced criticisms in many areas.

    Until very recently they were the worlds largest purchaser of fax machines. Ridiculous.

    Matt Hancock then made them the worlds largest purchaser of refrigerators, just in case we end up with a no deal Brexit.

    There was a recent programme on BBC, which focused on the billions that the NHS lose due to being ripped off by staff.

    Doctors are forced to send home patients that aren't fit for release, after weighing up the needs of patients requiring admission against those of the current bed occupants.

    Many patients are released that are unable to fend for themselves, due to social care cutbacks.

    Many patients block beds that don't need medical treatment, but cant be released because a lack of home care being available.

    The NHS restrict the payment made to the private companies for operations, to the actual costs that the NHS charges itself. Yet the private companies make millions at these prices.

    Compensation claims are rising.

    Many surgeons are restricting their working hours due to an anomaly in their personal taxation meaning that they earn less by increasing their working hours. Therefore increasing waiting lists. How long does it take to resolve this issue?

    The Tories response seems to be the abandonment of targets, rather than attempting any improvement.

    I could go on and on.

    The bottom line is that we will continue to be an aging population, the NHS is poorly run, during the last 10 years the Tories have made it worse, cuts in social care have increased the pressure.

    The love of an NHS by the general public, is hard to explain, as it seems to lurch from one disaster to the next.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Money no longer matters, not now Rishi Sunak wants to ‘get it done’
    What’s £350m a week anyway, now that the chancellor has turned on cash taps?​




    Coronavirus? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    The NHS? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    Small businesses? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.

    Climate change? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.


    Beer, wine, petrol, cider, potholes, tampons, flood defences, the A303, plastic, blue-sky thinking, electric cars, national insurance, VAT, the Pant-Llanymynech bypass, broadband, railways, further education? Rishi Sunak is getting them all done, done, done, done done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done and done.



    This Budget will do little to reverse the impact of austerity
    Is there an odd job you’ve just not got round to? My firm advice would be to hang around outside the Treasury building, mention it to Sunak and it’ll be in next year’s budget speech at the very latest. “Regrouting Ian from Cricklewood’s bathroom? PaintinDave’s mum’s shed? This government is getting it done.”

    Oh to be married to Sunak. “Rishi, it’s bi-
    “Taking out the bins? Your husband is getting it done.”
    It helps that Sunak, with his pipe-cleaner arms, obsequious smile, and hair like its been carefully combed by his mum for the annual school photo, bears every outward resemblance to a very small boy.


    Because it helped to lend Budget 2020 its crucial fairy story feel. With his first wish, Sunak got the job of his dreams. With his second, Sunak got the ultimate dream of every former Goldman Sachs banker – infinite money.

    The phrase “getting it done” made around 21 appearances. Only one phrase, or one word outdid it, and that was “billion” which appeared fully 47 times.
    I have done my very best to add up the numbers attached to these 47 appearances, and I think the answer is, at least £972bn and at most, well, infinity.

    The NHS, will be given “millions, billions, whatever it takes” to deal with coronavirus, he said. There is suddenly no amount of money for the NHS which cannot be found, which for those of us who had to listen to Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have soul-crushing, point-scoring arguments about it for what felt like a thousand years, is particularly annoying.
    Though less annoying, one imagines, than for the parents of a small boy with pneumonia being kept warm by a pile of anoraks on the floor of a Leeds hospital, whose existence Boris Johnson tried to wish away by nicking a reporter’s phone and putting it in his pocket.


    Still, that no expense will be spared to deal with coronavirus is reassuring in its way.
    At a generous estimate, Sunak spoke around 60 yards away from Nadine Dorries’ office door, that has now been crossed with police tape and marked “Covid-19 ​– Do Not Enter”.
    Were this any other workplace, it is very hard to believe it would not have been shut down.
    This was not so much the magic money tree budget as the magic forest.
    People who know a lot more about economics than me will tell you that countries aren’t like people. If you’ve got no money, you really can spend what you haven’t got and make yourself richer.

    For roughly a decade, Conservatives have laughed at this, by way of justification for stripping public services back to their bare bones and beyond, at the same time as doubling the national debt from £1 trillion to £2 trillion in the 10 years in which they have governed the country.

    Now, they cheered it on. It is four years since the people who now run the country, convinced the voters to say yes to an ideological cause that has cost us, so far, an estimated £600bn in lost economic growth. There is also a coronavirus recession looming on the horizon, and yet now really does appear to be the moment that money has ceased to be an object.
    A £30bn fiscal stimulus, £175bn “for our future prosperity”, £5bn of “export loans for businesses”, a £1.4bn science and research institute, £22bn on “R and D”, £5.2bn on flood defences. It was like watching some sort of weird hyper-inflated Saturday night game show. Whatever it was, Sunak had a billion quid to throw at it.

    Of course, the most entertaining part of any Budget Day is never the Budget itself (obviously) but the time it takes for it to collapse afterwards, for which George Osborne’s 2012 effort still holds the record, though Philip Hammond ran him close a few times.

    This one certainly had its moment.
    “For the first time ever,” Sunak said, “the billions of pounds we would have sent to the EU, we can now spend on our priorities.”

    The Budget’s red book contains a line on that. In year one, ie this year, that number is £4.1bn. In five years time, there is a very slim chance it might be as high as £14bn, or, £269m a week. Not bad, but even by the government’s own estimates, it is significantly smaller than the very big lie down the side of a bus that probably once drove through a town near you.
    Asked specifically about this, a government spokesperson made clear that comparing the two figures is a “false equivalence”. Yes, that’s right. Comparing the money we said we’d get back from the EU to the money we actually are getting back from the EU, is completely not on. Apparently, this is because it doesn’t take into account the vast amounts of cash UK negotiators have since agreed to pay the EU in various divorce settlements. So now you know. It’s fine to tell lies as long as they’re so big that nobody believes them.
    The only available coping strategy is laughter. And what’s £350m a week anyway, now that Sunak’s turned on the money hose?
    Traditionally, at the end of Budget Day, the Treasury team go to the Two Chairmen pub in Westminster for a well-earned pint. Beer duty may have been frozen, but if the landlord has any sense, he’ll up the price of a pint of Broadside to at least £1bn. Sunak won’t even blink.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/budget-rishi-sunak-spending-get-done-brexit-boris-johnson-a9395171.html
    The Independent is a Mickey Mouse
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Money no longer matters, not now Rishi Sunak wants to ‘get it done’
    What’s £350m a week anyway, now that the chancellor has turned on cash taps?​




    Coronavirus? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    The NHS? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.
    Small businesses? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.

    Climate change? Rishi Sunak is getting it done.


    Beer, wine, petrol, cider, potholes, tampons, flood defences, the A303, plastic, blue-sky thinking, electric cars, national insurance, VAT, the Pant-Llanymynech bypass, broadband, railways, further education? Rishi Sunak is getting them all done, done, done, done done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done and done.



    This Budget will do little to reverse the impact of austerity
    Is there an odd job you’ve just not got round to? My firm advice would be to hang around outside the Treasury building, mention it to Sunak and it’ll be in next year’s budget speech at the very latest. “Regrouting Ian from Cricklewood’s bathroom? PaintinDave’s mum’s shed? This government is getting it done.”

    Oh to be married to Sunak. “Rishi, it’s bi-
    “Taking out the bins? Your husband is getting it done.”
    It helps that Sunak, with his pipe-cleaner arms, obsequious smile, and hair like its been carefully combed by his mum for the annual school photo, bears every outward resemblance to a very small boy.


    Because it helped to lend Budget 2020 its crucial fairy story feel. With his first wish, Sunak got the job of his dreams. With his second, Sunak got the ultimate dream of every former Goldman Sachs banker – infinite money.

    The phrase “getting it done” made around 21 appearances. Only one phrase, or one word outdid it, and that was “billion” which appeared fully 47 times.
    I have done my very best to add up the numbers attached to these 47 appearances, and I think the answer is, at least £972bn and at most, well, infinity.

    The NHS, will be given “millions, billions, whatever it takes” to deal with coronavirus, he said. There is suddenly no amount of money for the NHS which cannot be found, which for those of us who had to listen to Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have soul-crushing, point-scoring arguments about it for what felt like a thousand years, is particularly annoying.
    Though less annoying, one imagines, than for the parents of a small boy with pneumonia being kept warm by a pile of anoraks on the floor of a Leeds hospital, whose existence Boris Johnson tried to wish away by nicking a reporter’s phone and putting it in his pocket.


    Still, that no expense will be spared to deal with coronavirus is reassuring in its way.
    At a generous estimate, Sunak spoke around 60 yards away from Nadine Dorries’ office door, that has now been crossed with police tape and marked “Covid-19 ​– Do Not Enter”.
    Were this any other workplace, it is very hard to believe it would not have been shut down.
    This was not so much the magic money tree budget as the magic forest.
    People who know a lot more about economics than me will tell you that countries aren’t like people. If you’ve got no money, you really can spend what you haven’t got and make yourself richer.

    For roughly a decade, Conservatives have laughed at this, by way of justification for stripping public services back to their bare bones and beyond, at the same time as doubling the national debt from £1 trillion to £2 trillion in the 10 years in which they have governed the country.

    Now, they cheered it on. It is four years since the people who now run the country, convinced the voters to say yes to an ideological cause that has cost us, so far, an estimated £600bn in lost economic growth. There is also a coronavirus recession looming on the horizon, and yet now really does appear to be the moment that money has ceased to be an object.
    A £30bn fiscal stimulus, £175bn “for our future prosperity”, £5bn of “export loans for businesses”, a £1.4bn science and research institute, £22bn on “R and D”, £5.2bn on flood defences. It was like watching some sort of weird hyper-inflated Saturday night game show. Whatever it was, Sunak had a billion quid to throw at it.

    Of course, the most entertaining part of any Budget Day is never the Budget itself (obviously) but the time it takes for it to collapse afterwards, for which George Osborne’s 2012 effort still holds the record, though Philip Hammond ran him close a few times.

    This one certainly had its moment.
    “For the first time ever,” Sunak said, “the billions of pounds we would have sent to the EU, we can now spend on our priorities.”

    The Budget’s red book contains a line on that. In year one, ie this year, that number is £4.1bn. In five years time, there is a very slim chance it might be as high as £14bn, or, £269m a week. Not bad, but even by the government’s own estimates, it is significantly smaller than the very big lie down the side of a bus that probably once drove through a town near you.
    Asked specifically about this, a government spokesperson made clear that comparing the two figures is a “false equivalence”. Yes, that’s right. Comparing the money we said we’d get back from the EU to the money we actually are getting back from the EU, is completely not on. Apparently, this is because it doesn’t take into account the vast amounts of cash UK negotiators have since agreed to pay the EU in various divorce settlements. So now you know. It’s fine to tell lies as long as they’re so big that nobody believes them.
    The only available coping strategy is laughter. And what’s £350m a week anyway, now that Sunak’s turned on the money hose?
    Traditionally, at the end of Budget Day, the Treasury team go to the Two Chairmen pub in Westminster for a well-earned pint. Beer duty may have been frozen, but if the landlord has any sense, he’ll up the price of a pint of Broadside to at least £1bn. Sunak won’t even blink.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/budget-rishi-sunak-spending-get-done-brexit-boris-johnson-a9395171.html
    The Independent is a Russian Newspaper. Apparently it makes excellent compost.
    Could you point out the bits that aren't true?
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    From where I’m sitting, the only thing Boris needed to do was take the U.K. out of the EU.
    That’s what the voters voted for , and that’s what he’s done.
    He wasn’t even PM at the time of the referendum. He’s taken the bull by the horns and stood up for democracy.
    Whatever type of deal gets done is down to the negotiators.Theres a world outside the EU btw.
    Nobody has ever said after Brexit that UK citizens are going to become tremendously wealthy or the like. Unleashing potential is ‘ pitch’ and means something entirely different.
    The EU could crumble, then it might be better for us to be out, who knows.
    If the Brexit deadline has to be extended, there’s no great shame in that, as there’s been unforeseen circumstances.
    Why do you slate the Government morning , noon, and night? I would’ve expected it of a Labour voter, but you vote a different way?
    If some kind of deal is ever done with the EU, that’s not race over.
    That’s purely the start of the U.K. carrying on, and doing deals with others as per usual.
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    Your bigger market theory is a bit flawed.
    There might be bigger population in the EU , but they’re not all minted.
    Over here financing means you can have nearly what you want.
    Not exactly the same in all EU countries.
    Who over here buys a new car for cash. Most get finance for three years, then trade in.
    That’s why the foreign owners like the U.K.,as long as the finance is there, the consumer buys.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    From where I’m sitting, the only thing Boris needed to do was take the U.K. out of the EU.


    What is blatantly obvious to most people is that leaving with a trade deal that kept us closely aligned to the EU, would be far less damaging to the economy, than the divergence that he is **** bent on.
    You don't seem to grasp that whether we align or diverge, we will still be leaving the EU.


    Divergence is a choice.



    That’s what the voters voted for , and that’s what he’s done.


    The voters were not necessarily in favour of divergence?



    He wasn’t even PM at the time of the referendum. He’s taken the bull by the horns and stood up for democracy.


    No he was the leader of the leave campaign at the time of the referendum, and their liar in chief.

    Boris does not know the meaning of the word democracy.





    Whatever type of deal gets done is down to the negotiators.Theres a world outside the EU btw.


    The more you respond the clearer it becomes that you do not grasp what is going on.
    As I have said many times before.
    Theresa May negotiated a Political Declaration that closely aligned to the EU.
    Boris amended it as he wasn't in favour of a close relationship, hence the divergence.
    Every economist that ever drew breath is of the opinion that close alignment with the EU causes the least damage to our economy, and the more we diverge the more damage we cause.
    Boris wants to completely diverge
    .


    There is a world outside.
    A US trade deal provides a negligible boost to our economy.
    Losing the trade with 70 countries that we currently access through the EU, will cause further damage.




    Nobody has ever said after Brexit that UK citizens are going to become tremendously wealthy or the like. Unleashing potential is ‘ pitch’ and means something entirely different.


    Boris has a choice on how much poorer we wish to become.


    The EU could crumble, then it might be better for us to be out, who knows.

    We are going to be out anyway.
    You are grasping at straws



    If the Brexit deadline has to be extended, there’s no great shame in that, as there’s been unforeseen circumstances.

    Boris is swearing he will not extend the transition. Admittedly he is not quite at his preference for dying in a ditch stage yet.


    Why do you slate the Government morning , noon, and night? I would’ve expected it of a Labour voter, but you vote a different way?

    Because they are a shambles.
    Why are you defending them morning, noon, and night.
    What have they done that is good.



    If some kind of deal is ever done with the EU, that’s not race over.
    That’s purely the start of the U.K. carrying on, and doing deals with others as per usual.

    We haven't done a trade deal for nearly 50 years.
    My argument is about the Boris stupid starting point, you don't seem to grasp what is going on.


  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,894
    chilling said:

    Your bigger market theory is a bit flawed.
    There might be bigger population in the EU , but they’re not all minted.

    You make me laugh on times.

    The UK has 9 out of the 10 poorest regions in northern Europe
    www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-uk-has-9-out...
    06/06/2018 · The UK has 9 out of the 10 poorest regions in northern Europe. West Wales, Durham and Tees Valley, South Yorkshire and Northern Ireland all rank highly as the poorest areas in Europe in a report by Inequality Briefing. The report notes that despite Britain having a similar economic make-up to its northern European counterparts,.




    Over here financing means you can have nearly what you want.
    Not exactly the same in all EU countries.
    Who over here buys a new car for cash. Most get finance for three years, then trade in.
    That’s why the foreign owners like the U.K.,as long as the finance is there, the consumer buys.

    Are you really saying that there are no prosperous areas in Europe, and no finance ia available?

    If that is the best you can do, I must admit that your earlier decision to avoid any questions was a correct one.
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
    Sure. What’s the Boris Brexit deal again?
    What about this one?

    Put very simply.

    We have two choices.

    One causes lots of damage, the other very little damage.

    In either case lets assume that altering interest rates would cause an improvement.

    Surely you would have to choose the option that caused very little damage, and alter the interest rate.

    To argue that the alteration of interest rates somehow justifies choosing the option that caused the most damage, is very foolish.

    Boris has made a very foolish choice.
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
    Sure. What’s the Boris Brexit deal again?
    What about this one?

    Put very simply.

    We have two choices.

    One causes lots of damage, the other very little damage.

    In either case lets assume that altering interest rates would cause an improvement.

    Surely you would have to choose the option that caused very little damage, and alter the interest rate.

    To argue that the alteration of interest rates somehow justifies choosing the option that caused the most damage, is very foolish.

    Boris has made a very foolish choice.
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Your bigger market theory is a bit flawed.
    There might be bigger population in the EU , but they’re not all minted.

    You make me laugh on times.

    The UK has 9 out of the 10 poorest regions in northern Europe
    www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-uk-has-9-out...
    06/06/2018 · The UK has 9 out of the 10 poorest regions in northern Europe. West Wales, Durham and Tees Valley, South Yorkshire and Northern Ireland all rank highly as the poorest areas in Europe in a report by Inequality Briefing. The report notes that despite Britain having a similar economic make-up to its northern European counterparts,.




    Over here financing means you can have nearly what you want.
    Not exactly the same in all EU countries.
    Who over here buys a new car for cash. Most get finance for three years, then trade in.
    That’s why the foreign owners like the U.K.,as long as the finance is there, the consumer buys.

    Are you really saying that there are no prosperous areas in Europe, and no finance ia available?

    If that is the best you can do, I must admit that your earlier decision to avoid any questions was a correct one.
    Most countries have poorer regions.
    So if the EU have a larger population, they’ll have more poorer people in total.
    You’re talking about the whole EU population.

    Don’t forget we’re “ leveling up” , but highly likely we’ll be leveling down.

    You’re getting a touch bitter lately, I might give you a rest.
    I’ve answered numerous questions of yours, but we take different views on things.
    You’re doom and gloom, I’m a little more optimistic.

    It’s not just Boris, it’s a team of negotiators+others.
    You’re obsessed with holding Boris to account for some reason.
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    Que? To your interest comment, you’ve lost me.
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    Because there might not be much of the economies left to negotiate.
    Revisit this comment in two or three months time.
    I hope I’m wrong.

    Lots of companies that manage to survive through the coronavirus, will be done in by Boris and his Brexit deal.

    Still not bothering with any questions?
    Sure. What’s the Boris Brexit deal again?

    You could also address this one, as you brought it up?




    It is no secret that we are an ageing population, and the NHS will need more funding to cover the increasing costs.

    The loss of beds, staff, and cutbacks in social care have added pressure to the smooth running of the service.

    The NHS has also faced criticisms in many areas.

    Until very recently they were the worlds largest purchaser of fax machines. Ridiculous.

    Matt Hancock then made them the worlds largest purchaser of refrigerators, just in case we end up with a no deal Brexit.

    There was a recent programme on BBC, which focused on the billions that the NHS lose due to being ripped off by staff.

    Doctors are forced to send home patients that aren't fit for release, after weighing up the needs of patients requiring admission against those of the current bed occupants.

    Many patients are released that are unable to fend for themselves, due to social care cutbacks.

    Many patients block beds that don't need medical treatment, but cant be released because a lack of home care being available.

    The NHS restrict the payment made to the private companies for operations, to the actual costs that the NHS charges itself. Yet the private companies make millions at these prices.

    Compensation claims are rising.

    Many surgeons are restricting their working hours due to an anomaly in their personal taxation meaning that they earn less by increasing their working hours. Therefore increasing waiting lists. How long does it take to resolve this issue?

    The Tories response seems to be the abandonment of targets, rather than attempting any improvement.

    I could go on and on.

    The bottom line is that we will continue to be an aging population, the NHS is poorly run, during the last 10 years the Tories have made it worse, cuts in social care have increased the pressure.

    The love of an NHS by the general public, is hard to explain, as it seems to lurch from one disaster to the next.
    Don’t think people love the NHS, they’re just glad it’s there.
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    Northern Europe has some very rich countries with small populations.
    I’m not sure you’d find a Grimbsy or Scunthorpe in those countries.
    France by area is twice the size of the U.K., but our population is higher.
    It’s made up of vast areas for agriculture, that we’ve helped subsidize,as net contributors, so they can sell it back to us.Only ten net contributors to the EU budget. We were in the top three.
    Isn’t it strange that Germany and France are the only ones with a trade surplus with the China powerhouse.A country that they are heavily dependent upon.
    You’d have thought the smaller countries would also have a surplus with China for the “ leg up”.
    But, alas.
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    Seems to me that the richer countries in the EU are keeping the poorer ones afloat.
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