My Main issue is with you thinking it is fine for recs and regs to get overcharged at a game they do play.
If people think they are being overcharged ...then dont play here ...dont continue to , because its soft , but then moan about it . You obv think we are being overcharged , but continue to do so , because I would presume the benefits outweigh the negatives in your own mind .
My roi is higher on stars, unibet... just about every site... I dont think its soft at all
However you think the rake is too high , but continue to play here .
Haven't had any massive swings in monetary value but I find that when I have swings they tend to feel prolonged as my volume considerably drops as I have less desire to play.
Therefore it feels like it takes ages to get out of the swing but it's because it's taking me twice as long to play the same volume compared to when I'm winning. Like Danny said sometimes during the breakeven/losing stretches I will try too hard to make things happen at the table and often isn't good.
Found that once I started playing 55's and 110's more regularly I needed to forget about the money as when you brick they soon add up so best advice from me Ikelly is to not get attached to the money, just look at it as number of buy-ins.
If poker was your main income source for day to day bills etc I can't imagine how mentally strong you would have to be come out the other side of a big downswing, I guess all the hard work off the tables will pay divedends eventually?
As a rec it would still affect me but not on the same scale, so kudos to you guys who have to deal with this regularly.
My Main issue is with you thinking it is fine for recs and regs to get overcharged at a game they do play.
If people think they are being overcharged ...then dont play here ...dont continue to , because its soft , but then moan about it . You obv think we are being overcharged , but continue to do so , because I would presume the benefits outweigh the negatives in your own mind .
My roi is higher on stars, unibet... just about every site... I dont think its soft at all
However you think the rake is too high , but continue to play here .
Sorry I’m not debating with someone who can’t be arsed to read posts properly.
My Main issue is with you thinking it is fine for recs and regs to get overcharged at a game they do play.
If people think they are being overcharged ...then dont play here ...dont continue to , because its soft , but then moan about it . You obv think we are being overcharged , but continue to do so , because I would presume the benefits outweigh the negatives in your own mind .
My roi is higher on stars, unibet... just about every site... I dont think its soft at all
However you think the rake is too high , but continue to play here .
Sorry I’m not debating with someone who can’t be arsed to read posts properly.
Read it , and still don't understand it ...move on !
My Main issue is with you thinking it is fine for recs and regs to get overcharged at a game they do play.
If people think they are being overcharged ...then dont play here ...dont continue to , because its soft , but then moan about it . You obv think we are being overcharged , but continue to do so , because I would presume the benefits outweigh the negatives in your own mind .
My roi is higher on stars, unibet... just about every site... I dont think its soft at all
I think that difference will be principally due to the majority of your Sky games being bounty hunters where you'll be achieving an overall smaller roi on your wins and very deep runs.
It would be interesting to compare your roi in just bounty hunters across different sites if you have a large enough sample to do so.
Just read through and find this subject really interesting, how do you cope mentally with big downswings? and do they affect the way you play when you are deep in one?
Glad we are back on topic... thanks Ikelly!
Big downswings are obviously very mentally challenging. You start to doubt everything you do, confidence is out the window and you can feel like you will never win again - the game has caught you up and you are now somehow behind the curve/a losing player.
What can make it worse is the pressure to win only increases as your bank balance decreases. It can be extremely stressful at times.
I know I felt like this at the start of 2015. I had a -£15k ish downswing (multiple sites online + live), which was most of my bankroll, over the course of 3 months. I just couldn't win and it really effected my confidence.
Since then I have had plenty of similar experiences but not quite as bad.
To get through it I usually up my amount of studying, with the attitude I will find a way to win, even if the poker gods are against me. It can help with confidence by reassuring you that your plays were correct + help to find anywhere you might have gone off the rails strategy wise + any increase in ability will only help to reduce variance.
Was this downswing a significant % of your bankroll at the time?
Just read through and find this subject really interesting, how do you cope mentally with big downswings? and do they affect the way you play when you are deep in one?
Glad we are back on topic... thanks Ikelly!
Big downswings are obviously very mentally challenging. You start to doubt everything you do, confidence is out the window and you can feel like you will never win again - the game has caught you up and you are now somehow behind the curve/a losing player.
What can make it worse is the pressure to win only increases as your bank balance decreases. It can be extremely stressful at times.
I know I felt like this at the start of 2015. I had a -£15k ish downswing (multiple sites online + live), which was most of my bankroll, over the course of 3 months. I just couldn't win and it really effected my confidence.
Since then I have had plenty of similar experiences but not quite as bad.
To get through it I usually up my amount of studying, with the attitude I will find a way to win, even if the poker gods are against me. It can help with confidence by reassuring you that your plays were correct + help to find anywhere you might have gone off the rails strategy wise + any increase in ability will only help to reduce variance.
Was this downswing a significant % of your bankroll at the time?
yes
I would be surprised if there are many professional poker players that have not had downswings for most of their roll. Variance is very easy to underestimate, and when things go bad it takes a lot of discipline to play in smaller games than you have been.
Just read through and find this subject really interesting, how do you cope mentally with big downswings? and do they affect the way you play when you are deep in one?
Glad we are back on topic... thanks Ikelly!
Big downswings are obviously very mentally challenging. You start to doubt everything you do, confidence is out the window and you can feel like you will never win again - the game has caught you up and you are now somehow behind the curve/a losing player.
What can make it worse is the pressure to win only increases as your bank balance decreases. It can be extremely stressful at times.
I know I felt like this at the start of 2015. I had a -£15k ish downswing (multiple sites online + live), which was most of my bankroll, over the course of 3 months. I just couldn't win and it really effected my confidence.
Since then I have had plenty of similar experiences but not quite as bad.
To get through it I usually up my amount of studying, with the attitude I will find a way to win, even if the poker gods are against me. It can help with confidence by reassuring you that your plays were correct + help to find anywhere you might have gone off the rails strategy wise + any increase in ability will only help to reduce variance.
Was this downswing a significant % of your bankroll at the time?
yes
I would be surprised if there are many professional poker players that have not had downswings for most of their roll. Variance is very easy to underestimate, and when things go bad it takes a lot of discipline to play in smaller games than you have been.
Interesting stuff. Always wondered how big a roll the guys who fire everything including multiple 110 bullets are working with
Just read through and find this subject really interesting, how do you cope mentally with big downswings? and do they affect the way you play when you are deep in one?
Glad we are back on topic... thanks Ikelly!
Big downswings are obviously very mentally challenging. You start to doubt everything you do, confidence is out the window and you can feel like you will never win again - the game has caught you up and you are now somehow behind the curve/a losing player.
What can make it worse is the pressure to win only increases as your bank balance decreases. It can be extremely stressful at times.
I know I felt like this at the start of 2015. I had a -£15k ish downswing (multiple sites online + live), which was most of my bankroll, over the course of 3 months. I just couldn't win and it really effected my confidence.
Since then I have had plenty of similar experiences but not quite as bad.
To get through it I usually up my amount of studying, with the attitude I will find a way to win, even if the poker gods are against me. It can help with confidence by reassuring you that your plays were correct + help to find anywhere you might have gone off the rails strategy wise + any increase in ability will only help to reduce variance.
Was this downswing a significant % of your bankroll at the time?
yes
I would be surprised if there are many professional poker players that have not had downswings for most of their roll. Variance is very easy to underestimate, and when things go bad it takes a lot of discipline to play in smaller games than you have been.
Hey chicken
I like your honesty on this post and think atm your game is in a good place...
@dobiesdraw I cannot help bit think your anger at Mr Melt is misplaced. Think him starting a thread about rake in games he does not intend to play in the future is quite a noble endeavour and am unsure as to why you are attacking him or how it could be perceived so negatively.
In terms of the thread I am sure my biggest relative downswing would have been when I was only a slightly winning player. I was 'down-swinging' on 888 so tried sky instead and think I had £30 left in my sky account when i came 2nd in the mini roller for £450ish ( Bates won standard) but i remember that win was easily more money than i had at the time in my bank by a lot. Perhaps downswing isn't appropriate as i was likely quite a break-even player at the time. I would guess I lost a good $200 on 888 and some on sky before i cashed that comp. I might have 3x'd all the money I had at the time from that comp.
In terms of spin ups/ 100bb the worst period I've encountered is losing around £18k in a 6 week-ish period. Fortunately it came directly after a 2 week heater so wasn't as brutal as it could have been. Was still really tough mentally though. Just expected to lose every session I played and I did for a while. I did get to thinking that it was getting so bad so quickly I must me doing some horrendous things and that my game perhaps wasn't good enough and that previous successes were more attributable to running good than I realised. Deep down I think you know that most of it is variance, maybe compounded by a bit of bad play creeping in because keeping to your A game when losing large amounts of money is really really hard. You do doubt a lot of things. Everyone talks about variance but think many don't truly understand how bad it can get. My downswing could have been heaps worse If I was playing line ups where my edge was smaller or ran worse longer, because for most of it I was being fairly picky with table choices.
I was probably only averaging my C game over the period. Lapses of concentration and misplays happened more often than average. The speed in which I lost money in games I was table-selecting for was quite scary really and the damage could have been worse. People advising proper bankroll management aren't being bores, its just most people underestimate how bad it can get.
Another fantastic thread. Just a pity the troll has been allowed to return to the forum (loved the old ignore button)
It’s interesting to read how even the best players suffer self doubt during bad runs. It makes me feel a bit better. It’s amazing how poker plays with your head. I have reasonable stats over a 20k+ sample at dyms but when i’m going through a bad patch i convince myself that I can’t play at all and will never win again.
Had a look through scope over the years. So early on I was a breakeven/losing player on sky but winning on other sites. So as Groggy said it is hard to know if that period should be called a downswing. I had about a £2.7k swing on about £12 av stake. In 2013 I had a £2.2k swing on £20 stake over 224 games. 2013 £2.1k over 130 games. End of 2015/start of 2016 I had £3.5k swing over 236 games on £28 av stake. That seems to be my biggest swing. On other sites I am sure I would of had worst. I think for players that play more than one site often they can find they have a bad spell on a particular site but overall are doing fine. I find this tends to mean players play more on the site they are doing well on.
I do think rather than downswing I think more important is difference between expected returns and actual results. To use an extreme example if you are expecting say 100% ROI and you breakeven over a period then that must feel really brutal even though it doesn't count as a downswing.
Also a breakeven spell can feel hard especially if poker is your income. For these players they are effectively working for nothing. Imagine going to work for a month and being paid nothing or even worse losing money. Mentally that must be pretty tough.
Also if you are a slight winning player and you have a downswing that results in you having to deposit that must be mentally quite tough as you have gone from a hobby that makes you some extra money to one that is costing you money.
In terms of coping with downswings it is tough for all players. For me having good players around you who can advise on hands really helps. Sometimes we are playing fine and it is purely variance, sometimes we think we are getting unlucky but we are playing bad. Again, having people to support you to keep you motivated is important. Being on a bad run and being able to reg in the right frame of mind is key. Sometimes its best to have time away from poker, sometimes grinding through it is right. Until you have experienced it then its hard to know whats best and I think this sort of thing is a personal thing and different things work for different players.
I think with tournament poker deep runs and not getting wins or making final tables can be just as frustrating as the £ results side of thing. Especially when the run is in a special tournament (Super Sunday) or when it is one of your highest buy in ones. I think when you don't feel you played your best late on in a tournament you may of made money but there is the disappointment of not making it count as deep runs wont happen all the time.
Downswings the one word every poker player hates. My biggest downswing on sky mtts is around 3k i think other sites around 8k but my avg buy in was 50+ so not that much. spins downswing are the most disgusting happened to me in 2018 i wont say the amount but u could buy a new BMW 5 series and a month in Vegas and still have change. Downswings are vv tough to deal with can affect your mental game which will stop u playing your best game which means u will lose more money. My advice for dealing with runbad/downswings up your volume and play lower to u get u confidence back. Also up Your studying. One hour every night doing the right things can drastically change u results long term. Anyone who takes poker seriously should imo study at least 5 hours a week min.
Downswings the one word every poker player hates. My biggest downswing on sky mtts is around 3k i think other sites around 8k but my avg buy in was 50+ so not that much. spins downswing are the most disgusting happened to me in 2018 i wont say the amount but u could buy a new BMW 5 series and a month in Vegas and still have change. Downswings are vv tough to deal with can affect your mental game which will stop u playing your best game which means u will lose more money. My advice for dealing with runbad/downswings up your volume and play lower to u get u confidence back. Also up Your studding. One hour every night doing the right things can drastically change u results long term. Anyone who takes poker seriously should imo study at least 5 hours a week min.
This maybe where you were going wrong, increasing the gigalo work is unlikely to help your poker game.
Another fantastic thread. Just a pity the troll has been allowed to return to the forum (loved the old ignore button)
It’s interesting to read how even the best players suffer self doubt during bad runs. It makes me feel a bit better. It’s amazing how poker plays with your head. I have reasonable stats over a 20k+ sample at dyms but when i’m going through a bad patch i convince myself that I can’t play at all and will never win again.
Comments
Therefore it feels like it takes ages to get out of the swing but it's because it's taking me twice as long to play the same volume compared to when I'm winning. Like Danny said sometimes during the breakeven/losing stretches I will try too hard to make things happen at the table and often isn't good.
Found that once I started playing 55's and 110's more regularly I needed to forget about the money as when you brick they soon add up so best advice from me Ikelly is to not get attached to the money, just look at it as number of buy-ins.
If poker was your main income source for day to day bills etc I can't imagine how mentally strong you would have to be come out the other side of a big downswing, I guess all the hard work off the tables will pay divedends eventually?
As a rec it would still affect me but not on the same scale, so kudos to you guys who have to deal with this regularly.
It would be interesting to compare your roi in just bounty hunters across different sites if you have a large enough sample to do so.
I would be surprised if there are many professional poker players that have not had downswings for most of their roll. Variance is very easy to underestimate, and when things go bad it takes a lot of discipline to play in smaller games than you have been.
I like your honesty on this post and think atm your game is in a good place...
In terms of the thread I am sure my biggest relative downswing would have been when I was only a slightly winning player. I was 'down-swinging' on 888 so tried sky instead and think I had £30 left in my sky account when i came 2nd in the mini roller for £450ish ( Bates won standard) but i remember that win was easily more money than i had at the time in my bank by a lot. Perhaps downswing isn't appropriate as i was likely quite a break-even player at the time. I would guess I lost a good $200 on 888 and some on sky before i cashed that comp. I might have 3x'd all the money I had at the time from that comp.
In terms of spin ups/ 100bb the worst period I've encountered is losing around £18k in a 6 week-ish period. Fortunately it came directly after a 2 week heater so wasn't as brutal as it could have been. Was still really tough mentally though. Just expected to lose every session I played and I did for a while. I did get to thinking that it was getting so bad so quickly I must me doing some horrendous things and that my game perhaps wasn't good enough and that previous successes were more attributable to running good than I realised. Deep down I think you know that most of it is variance, maybe compounded by a bit of bad play creeping in because keeping to your A game when losing large amounts of money is really really hard. You do doubt a lot of things. Everyone talks about variance but think many don't truly understand how bad it can get. My downswing could have been heaps worse If I was playing line ups where my edge was smaller or ran worse longer, because for most of it I was being fairly picky with table choices.
I was probably only averaging my C game over the period. Lapses of concentration and misplays happened more often than average. The speed in which I lost money in games I was table-selecting for was quite scary really and the damage could have been worse. People advising proper bankroll management aren't being bores, its just most people underestimate how bad it can get.
Just a pity the troll has been allowed to return to the forum (loved the old ignore button)
It’s interesting to read how even the best players suffer self doubt during bad runs.
It makes me feel a bit better. It’s amazing how poker plays with your head. I have reasonable stats over a 20k+ sample at dyms but when i’m going through a bad patch i convince myself that I can’t play at all and will never win again.
So early on I was a breakeven/losing player on sky but winning on other sites. So as Groggy said it is hard to know if that period should be called a downswing. I had about a £2.7k swing on about £12 av stake. In 2013 I had a £2.2k swing on £20 stake over 224 games. 2013 £2.1k over 130 games. End of 2015/start of 2016 I had £3.5k swing over 236 games on £28 av stake. That seems to be my biggest swing. On other sites I am sure I would of had worst. I think for players that play more than one site often they can find they have a bad spell on a particular site but overall are doing fine. I find this tends to mean players play more on the site they are doing well on.
I do think rather than downswing I think more important is difference between expected returns and actual results. To use an extreme example if you are expecting say 100% ROI and you breakeven over a period then that must feel really brutal even though it doesn't count as a downswing.
Also a breakeven spell can feel hard especially if poker is your income. For these players they are effectively working for nothing. Imagine going to work for a month and being paid nothing or even worse losing money. Mentally that must be pretty tough.
Also if you are a slight winning player and you have a downswing that results in you having to deposit that must be mentally quite tough as you have gone from a hobby that makes you some extra money to one that is costing you money.
In terms of coping with downswings it is tough for all players. For me having good players around you who can advise on hands really helps. Sometimes we are playing fine and it is purely variance, sometimes we think we are getting unlucky but we are playing bad. Again, having people to support you to keep you motivated is important. Being on a bad run and being able to reg in the right frame of mind is key. Sometimes its best to have time away from poker, sometimes grinding through it is right. Until you have experienced it then its hard to know whats best and I think this sort of thing is a personal thing and different things work for different players.
I think with tournament poker deep runs and not getting wins or making final tables can be just as frustrating as the £ results side of thing. Especially when the run is in a special tournament (Super Sunday) or when it is one of your highest buy in ones. I think when you don't feel you played your best late on in a tournament you may of made money but there is the disappointment of not making it count as deep runs wont happen all the time.
This maybe where you were going wrong, increasing the gigalo work is unlikely to help your poker game.