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November Chaos.

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  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 8,122
    At least the Lib Dems have made it absolutely clear of their stance and voters will know exactly what to expect from them,unlike the Cons & Lab who continue to bemuse voters with their inability to decide one way or another. You've got Lib Dems & Brexit Party at opposite ends of the spectrum but at least with clear polices,whilst the other two continue to dither somewhere in the middle unable to make any firm decisions.Perhaps in the end the EU will force the issue,as they won't want it to continue to drag on endlessly.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    lucy4 said:

    At least the Lib Dems have made it absolutely clear of their stance and voters will know exactly what to expect from them,unlike the Cons & Lab who continue to bemuse voters with their inability to decide one way or another. You've got Lib Dems & Brexit Party at opposite ends of the spectrum but at least with clear polices,whilst the other two continue to dither somewhere in the middle unable to make any firm decisions.Perhaps in the end the EU will force the issue,as they won't want it to continue to drag on endlessly.

    Parties that do well in elections have a clear message.
    Boris tries to lead, but probably cant help being a compulsive liar, which is evidently a drawback.
    Corbyn is absolutely pathetic, and hasn't got a clue.
    Top leaders make a difference.
    They will sell their policies to voters.
    They will inspire, motivate, influence, cajole, encourage, and excite the electorate to vote for their party, and their MPs to loyally serve.
    Jeremy Corbyn thinks leading is sitting on a fence, staying neutral.
    The Tories are so split, they would need a big majority to get a deal through, which doesn't seem likely, and are currently unable to deliver on their promises.
    Labour are just as bad, as quite a number of their MPs ignore the whip with impunity.
    The SNP are very clear, as are in very small number, the Greens, Plaid Cymru, and the Independent Group.
    We need the opposition parties to take control, or a general election giving one party a sizeable majority.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,846
    edited September 2019
    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 8,122
    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,846
    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
    It's not ignorance. you only have to look at the press to see how history is being distorted.

    Compromise has been the thing that keeps the world turning. Compromise and diplomacy have maintained peace for decades. There are numerous examples where a bit of give and take has won the day.

    Can't stand Corbyn personally. But the Labour Party is democratic-the leader does not make policy. He is a Leaver, through and through-but the Party has voted to tread a middle path, and most of its members are natural Remainers.

    Most sensible people could find a middle ground, As an example, we could leave and stay in the Customs Union, pending a General Election where parties could campaign as to the way forward.

    But no. all sides appear to either pretend 2016 didn't happen, or said something totally different to a simple "leave" which fits their own ideology.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
    It's not ignorance. you only have to look at the press to see how history is being distorted.

    Compromise has been the thing that keeps the world turning. Compromise and diplomacy have maintained peace for decades. There are numerous examples where a bit of give and take has won the day.

    Can't stand Corbyn personally. But the Labour Party is democratic-the leader does not make policy. He is a Leaver, through and through-but the Party has voted to tread a middle path, and most of its members are natural Remainers.

    Most sensible people could find a middle ground, As an example, we could leave and stay in the Customs Union, pending a General Election where parties could campaign as to the way forward.

    But no. all sides appear to either pretend 2016 didn't happen, or said something totally different to a simple "leave" which fits their own ideology.
    I agree with the need for compromise although few people seem prepared to accept any
    .
    I also think that there are degrees of compromise, many remainers would readily accept a deal which resulted in a close relationship with the EU, but never accept no deal.

    Equally leavers that favour no deal would be kicking off if we negotiated a Norway type deal. Even though both of these outcomes mean leaving.

    Also those in favour of an independent trade policy, will find a customs union, a step too far.

    I completely disagree on the Labour Party, although I share your dislike of Corbyn.

    Firstly he provided no leadership in the referendum campaign, and went missing, he was completely absent throughout the campaign.

    I agree that he is not responsible for choosing their policies, but they have been forced to drag him kicking and screaming to their current Brexit position, but he still prefers to remain seated on the fence.

    The overwhelming majority of Labour members (78%) voted in favour of a second referendum, at last years conference.

    Yet it has taken him almost a year to stop ignoring their wishes. He has done everything he could to wriggle out of this policy, and has avoided a second referendum like the plague.

    The majority of his MPs support remain, and are in favour of a second referendum, as are the majority of Labour members.

    A huge majority of Labour voters support remain. The last article I posted claimed that this was as high as 75%.

    The problem is that there is no middle ground on Brexit.

    To pursue the policy of so called constructive ambiguity will have frustrated many of the 75% of their supporters that voted remain, and hardly satisfied the 25% that were leave supporters.

    I describe it as "so called" as I don't believe that there was anything constructive about it.

    On many occasions opting for the middle of the road just means you get run over.

    Brexit is so divisive keeping both sides happy is impossible.

    I think that this has been proved in the local, and EU elections. Where those parties with a clear message did much better than those that didn't.

    Labours failure in these elections was spectacular.

    Had they been a remain party straight off, and taken the view that they could keep the remainers happy, and instead of trying to retain the 25% leave voters via the so called constructive ambiguity, they should have written them off, and attempted to replace them by taking remain voters from other parties.

    However the Lib Dems beat them to it.

    They wouldn't necessarily have lost all the leave voters, as some people will continue to vote Labour because their Dad and Grandad did, irrespective of their policies.

    Labour is only democratic if the leader agrees with the policy, can sit on the fence, and remain neutral.

    Brexit has changed politics forever.

    Both of the main parties have been proud to claim that they are broad churches, and their MPs have a wide range of opinions.

    This has made Brexit impossible to deliver, as it has split both parties, and the lack of compromise has made a majority vote for anything, other than no deal, out of the question.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn faces fight to stop him ‘staying neutral’ in fresh referendum, Labour figures warn
    ‘Conference will attempt to make sure the party backs Remain and that the leader does as well’



    Jeremy Corbyn is being warned of a battle to force him to abandon his plan to “stay neutral” in a fresh Brexit referendum, at Labour’s conference this weekend.
    Supporters of a Final Say vote pledged a showdown to make it official party policy to campaign for Remain – hours after the Labour leader signalled he intended to sit on the fence.

    Phil Wilson, an influential Labour MP, told The Independent: “Conference will attempt to make sure the party backs Remain and that the leader does as well.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-jeremy-corbyn-referendum-eu-leave-remain-labour-final-say-a9110241.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    lucy4 said:

    At least the Lib Dems have made it absolutely clear of their stance and voters will know exactly what to expect from them,unlike the Cons & Lab who continue to bemuse voters with their inability to decide one way or another. You've got Lib Dems & Brexit Party at opposite ends of the spectrum but at least with clear polices,whilst the other two continue to dither somewhere in the middle unable to make any firm decisions.Perhaps in the end the EU will force the issue,as they won't want it to continue to drag on endlessly.

    An unintended consequence of Brexit may well be the break up of the UK.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Do you think not allowing EU citizens to vote in the referendum was Democratic?

    Do you think allowing them to vote would have overturned the result?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    edited September 2019


    Johnson 'could refuse to recall parliament' even if Supreme Court rules suspension unlawful
    UK ‘cannot meet’ EU deadline for Brexit plan and needs another year
    When is Boris Johnson’s Brexit deadline?
    Labour MPs warned any Johnson Brexit deal will be 'right wing dream'
    Mark Steel Johnson has gone so barmy he doesn’t know what a journalist looks like
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Well done last night.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Lib Dems move ahead of Labour in the polls days after pledging to cancel Brexit



    The Lib Dems have jumped ahead of Labour in the latest opinion poll just days after pledging to cancel Brexit.
    The You Gov poll, published in the same week as the Lib Dems held their annual party conference, puts the Lib Dems on 23%, up four points on the previous poll.
    Labour stand at 21%, two points down.
    The Conservatives are on 32 per cent, unchanged on a week ago.
    Earlier this week, the Lib Dems pledged to cancel Brexit if they come to power at the next general election.

    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/lib-dems-move-ahead-of-labour-in-the-polls-days-after-pledging-to-cancel-brexit-115947288.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
    It's not ignorance. you only have to look at the press to see how history is being distorted.

    Compromise has been the thing that keeps the world turning. Compromise and diplomacy have maintained peace for decades. There are numerous examples where a bit of give and take has won the day.

    Can't stand Corbyn personally. But the Labour Party is democratic-the leader does not make policy. He is a Leaver, through and through-but the Party has voted to tread a middle path, and most of its members are natural Remainers.

    Most sensible people could find a middle ground, As an example, we could leave and stay in the Customs Union, pending a General Election where parties could campaign as to the way forward.

    But no. all sides appear to either pretend 2016 didn't happen, or said something totally different to a simple "leave" which fits their own ideology.
    Ask Tom Watson about Labour democracy.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,846
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
    It's not ignorance. you only have to look at the press to see how history is being distorted.

    Compromise has been the thing that keeps the world turning. Compromise and diplomacy have maintained peace for decades. There are numerous examples where a bit of give and take has won the day.

    Can't stand Corbyn personally. But the Labour Party is democratic-the leader does not make policy. He is a Leaver, through and through-but the Party has voted to tread a middle path, and most of its members are natural Remainers.

    Most sensible people could find a middle ground, As an example, we could leave and stay in the Customs Union, pending a General Election where parties could campaign as to the way forward.

    But no. all sides appear to either pretend 2016 didn't happen, or said something totally different to a simple "leave" which fits their own ideology.
    Ask Tom Watson about Labour democracy.
    A good example of double standards.

    Momentum is trying to shore up its preferred candidates by seeking to demote its rivals. Fair? No. But at least democratic. Because that is what 1 man, 1 vote is.

    Compare and contrast with a whole wing of the Conservative Party being forcibly removed from their Party without any sort of vote.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
    It's not ignorance. you only have to look at the press to see how history is being distorted.

    Compromise has been the thing that keeps the world turning. Compromise and diplomacy have maintained peace for decades. There are numerous examples where a bit of give and take has won the day.

    Can't stand Corbyn personally. But the Labour Party is democratic-the leader does not make policy. He is a Leaver, through and through-but the Party has voted to tread a middle path, and most of its members are natural Remainers.

    Most sensible people could find a middle ground, As an example, we could leave and stay in the Customs Union, pending a General Election where parties could campaign as to the way forward.

    But no. all sides appear to either pretend 2016 didn't happen, or said something totally different to a simple "leave" which fits their own ideology.
    Ask Tom Watson about Labour democracy.
    A good example of double standards.

    Momentum is trying to shore up its preferred candidates by seeking to demote its rivals. Fair? No. But at least democratic. Because that is what 1 man, 1 vote is.

    Compare and contrast with a whole wing of the Conservative Party being forcibly removed from their Party without any sort of vote.
    The Tories are just as bad, the whole wing was removed for what the opposite wing was recently guilty of, without any repercussions.
    Two wrongs don't make a right.
    Tom Watson could be removed by a very small group of admittedly elected members, despite his popularity amongst the membership as a whole.
    I suppose this sums up Labour attempts to appear democratic.
    Their polling, despite this absolute disaster of a Government, shows that the public are not as gullible as they may think.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
    It's not ignorance. you only have to look at the press to see how history is being distorted.

    Compromise has been the thing that keeps the world turning. Compromise and diplomacy have maintained peace for decades. There are numerous examples where a bit of give and take has won the day.

    Can't stand Corbyn personally. But the Labour Party is democratic-the leader does not make policy. He is a Leaver, through and through-but the Party has voted to tread a middle path, and most of its members are natural Remainers.

    Most sensible people could find a middle ground, As an example, we could leave and stay in the Customs Union, pending a General Election where parties could campaign as to the way forward.

    But no. all sides appear to either pretend 2016 didn't happen, or said something totally different to a simple "leave" which fits their own ideology.
    Ask Tom Watson about Labour democracy.
    A good example of double standards.

    Momentum is trying to shore up its preferred candidates by seeking to demote its rivals. Fair? No. But at least democratic. Because that is what 1 man, 1 vote is.

    Compare and contrast with a whole wing of the Conservative Party being forcibly removed from their Party without any sort of vote.
    Another vote winning policy.

    Labour to cripple households with council tax rises in scores of towns and boroughs
    LABOUR-run town halls are demanding powers to impose crippling council tax rises, parliamentary documents have revealed. Evidence submitted to a Commons committee showed that a string of local authorities run by Jeremy Corbyn’s party have pressed the Government for restrictions on the local levy to be lifted.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1180757/labour-party-news-council-tax-rise-jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-conference
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
    It's not ignorance. you only have to look at the press to see how history is being distorted.

    Compromise has been the thing that keeps the world turning. Compromise and diplomacy have maintained peace for decades. There are numerous examples where a bit of give and take has won the day.

    Can't stand Corbyn personally. But the Labour Party is democratic-the leader does not make policy. He is a Leaver, through and through-but the Party has voted to tread a middle path, and most of its members are natural Remainers.

    Most sensible people could find a middle ground, As an example, we could leave and stay in the Customs Union, pending a General Election where parties could campaign as to the way forward.

    But no. all sides appear to either pretend 2016 didn't happen, or said something totally different to a simple "leave" which fits their own ideology.
    Ask Tom Watson about Labour democracy.
    A good example of double standards.

    Momentum is trying to shore up its preferred candidates by seeking to demote its rivals. Fair? No. But at least democratic. Because that is what 1 man, 1 vote is.

    Compare and contrast with a whole wing of the Conservative Party being forcibly removed from their Party without any sort of vote.
    Corbyn humiliation: Approval rating worst of any opposition leader since records began
    JEREMY CORBYN has received a major blow to his leadership after a poll showed his approval rating had sunk to the lowest of any opposition leader since records began in 1977.


    Jeremy Corbyn has received the lowest leadership satisfaction rating for any opposition leader, with a whopping 76 percent of Britons revealing they are dissatisfied with the way is doing his job. Just 16 percent said they were satisfied, according to an Ipsos MORI poll published today. Even 41 percent of Labour party supporters said they were dissatisfied with Mr Corbyn’s leadership, compared to 51 percent who say they are satisfied.

    The figures were high even among Labour supporters, as almost half, 48 percent, think he has done a bad job at handling Brexit.
    Just 34 percent think he has down well on the issue.

    The Ipsos MORI poll also revealed 78 percent of Labour supporters back a second referendum with the option of “Remain” on the ballot paper, should a deal not be agreed by October 31.
    Almost 80 percent would opt for a Brexit delay until a deal is agreed and 73 percent said they opposed a no deal scenario.


    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1180573/labour-news-jeremy-corbyn-news-poll-approval-rating-worst-ever
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    52% (or less) want 1 thing. 48% (or more) want the opposite.

    Only the Labour Party are attempting to reach out to both groups.

    Weak? Yes. If you want to live in a dictatorship. Will it cost them votes?-Undoubtedly. But that says far more about what a divisive, intolerant country we have become, than about the Labour Party.

    Call me ignorant but how can trying to appease both sides of a situation ever have any other result than division? Corbyn on numerous occasions has failed to declare his personal or party policies,if he stepped up and actually made a meaningful statement either way,people would respect that more than the fence sitting that has now become a Labour trait.
    It's not ignorance. you only have to look at the press to see how history is being distorted.

    Compromise has been the thing that keeps the world turning. Compromise and diplomacy have maintained peace for decades. There are numerous examples where a bit of give and take has won the day.

    Can't stand Corbyn personally. But the Labour Party is democratic-the leader does not make policy. He is a Leaver, through and through-but the Party has voted to tread a middle path, and most of its members are natural Remainers.

    Most sensible people could find a middle ground, As an example, we could leave and stay in the Customs Union, pending a General Election where parties could campaign as to the way forward.

    But no. all sides appear to either pretend 2016 didn't happen, or said something totally different to a simple "leave" which fits their own ideology.
    Ask Tom Watson about Labour democracy.
    A good example of double standards.

    Momentum is trying to shore up its preferred candidates by seeking to demote its rivals. Fair? No. But at least democratic. Because that is what 1 man, 1 vote is.

    Compare and contrast with a whole wing of the Conservative Party being forcibly removed from their Party without any sort of vote.



    stellacreasy Retweeted Paul Brand
    Let me get this straight - the head of a private organisation that isn’t affiliated to Labour, not content with shutting down the students voice, is now seeking to abolish a democratically elected position via a backroom vote. Party democracy- as long as you agree with them ey


    More
    stellacreasy Retweeted Natalie
    🌹
    FWIW Tom Watson got 200,000 votes from members in the deputy leadership contest - I should know ….

  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Corbyn plot to scrap Universal Credit could hammer 30m Brits - and leave YOU with the bill
    LABOUR’S plan to scrap Universal Credit has been torn apart by critics, who have raged the “disruptive” proposals could hammer 30million Britons, cost tens of billions of pounds and send taxes soaring.


    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1180547/jeremy-corbyn-prime-minister-labour-party-universal-credit-taxpayer-cost-general-election
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