TheEdge949 said: I haven't disappeared it's just that every time I answer you then seem compelled to not understand my answer.
Firstly M.P.s have only their own selfish little enclaves at heart. Their behaviour throughout the whole process confirms this.
No deal was never discussed because those arrogant people running the Country never thought they could lose.
The time taken reflects the I don't want to go attitude of those in power. Tough matey its not your decision to make it was ours and we made it.
Its not the Irish Border its the European Border and its merely being used as a tool by all sides and why should I have a solution ? I am neither a diplomat or a politician. That;s what those overpaid civil servants get their perkish lifestyles for.
My attitude has softened in that I might be able to stomach a deal but with the caveat that the ECJ or ECHR are not applicable in the UK and that any European manufacturers have to commit to the UK for at least 30 years.
Remember that its not all about us. Europe doesn't want/ cant afford to lose the UK so let them come to us to make the deals rather than us scratching around like some grubby back street dealer trying to appease the big supplier.
Why did I vote to leave ? because I see a big picture maybe 30/40/50 years down the line where Europe is run from the Hague / Brussels and national governments are reduced to nothing more than County Councils. All national identity is lost and the whole thing becomes a dysfunctional parody of the U.S. Also i remember the hysteria whipped up by the supposed experts when we chose to eschew the Euro, the recessions, the poverty, the death of business, the negative impact on trade. Sound familiar ? The truth was we went along without too much trouble unlike Ireland, Greece twice, Portugal, Italy and Spain.
Maybe the biggest benefit of a post brexit society will be that in future politicians of all sides will be under no illusion that they are there, elected by us to serve us, and it will always be a reminder that the real power of a Nation lies with its people. Black or white, rich or poor, man or woman, gay or straight, left or right or centre, believer or atheist etc. This is our United Kingdom and if we decide to drive it off a cliff that's our business.
Now yes that's a little radical but lets be honest it doesn't really matter does it ? I mean I can't think of an aspect of my life has been improved by our membership of the EU. My City has not received EU funding to regenerate or even to retrain the tens of thousands of Potters, Miners and Steelworkers who lost their jobs since I left school with many of the last two being lost to Europe.
The final irony is that all we have now is warehousing and that's only because we stand less than a mile from the M6 and are smack in the middle of the North - South and East - West trunking routes. And who staffs these warehouses ? well its mainly European workers and good luck to them they work damned hard for their money.
That's why stoke on Trent voted 70% leave and if you consider that the 2 Universities have around 9,000 students then the core figure of permanent residents would probably have yielded a higher % than that considering nearly all students voted remain.
So there you have it. Were not knuckle dragging racist bigots, opposing immigrants and foreigners. But like a stale marriage where your partner is no longer giving any support, comfort or love sometimes its just better to walk away and face the future on your own. Not so much a case of what have you done for me lately but a case of what have you ever done for me. Life is all about opinions. My opinion is totally different to yours.
"No deal" was discussed. Every single pro-leave campaigner stated in 2016 that the very thought was preposterous. Because it is. It is a totally different question as to whether we should leave.
You can't blame Civil Servants. The EU (and our last Government) proposed a deal. We refuse to accept it, refuse to offer anything in its place, and seem to believe it is the EU that are being irrational. Sad.
"Stomach a deal"? 50% of our TOTAL import/export trade is with the EU. As much as the rest of the world put together. We have traded on simple terms for 45 years. And now we have no clue what is to happen next.
Of course the EU needs the UK. Just not as much as we need them. 50% of our trade is with the EU-for the EU it is closer to 5% trade with the UK. Germany can trade with the other 27 members of the EU instead of us.
The idea that post-Brexit politicians will be there to serve us? Yeah, right. And Stoke will be in the Champions League. Next season.
Stoke not received funding? Of course it has. As an example, it received £19 million from the EU for that very purpose in May, and has received lots of money before that. Has it received enough?-Probably not. But it won't receive any more from a UK Government.
Potters lost their jobs because of changing tastes and cheap imports from outside the EU. Mining becaus we decided not to subsidise our coal in the way Poland was-when Poland was not in the EU. Steel was ruined by cheap Chinese imports. All nothing to do with us being in, or out, of the EU. But people would rather blame the EU than the actual reasons.
Knuckle-dragging racists are invariably Leave supporters. But the reverse is certainly not true-there are still millions of entirely sensible people who genuinely believe that British politicians are more trustworthy than European ones.
What has Europe done for us?
1. Provided UK citizens the right to live, work and retire anywhere in the EU (subject to the sensible financial conditions that we forgot to have) 2. Freedom to travel 3. Most of our Consumer Protection legislation 4. Invaluable information-sharing concerning cross-border crime. The crimes that are almost always cross-border are drugs, terrorism and paedophilia 5. Rules to protect the environment 6. Millions of jobs 7. The rules for international trade that we have relied on for 45 years. Not saying they can't be changed, but we have absolutely no idea what is to happen next
Is the EU perfect? Of course not. But it was Plan A. And we are about to tear it up with no Plan B whatsoever.
Have you fallen asleep with your Cursor/finger on the QUOTE button Tony? ....
I find it just get's boring when you re-iterate/re-post/Quote the same stuff. In your last post I was looking for something new that you had added, but it was just a re-post
As you know, I agree with Mark (Mr. Edge), with me being a Brexiteer
Even though I've always really valued your opinion, and I read with interest Phil's post too, it still hasn't changed my mind. I want to see how the UK does without being in the ever expanding, Brussels controlled EU. After all we might be able to give Stoke, and several other of our run-down ex-industrial cities, several £millions of the £billions we give to the EU, which hopefully will help them compete on the Global World stage.
Do you believe that we can be worse off than we were after the recession of 2008, and if we are, do you believe that we will never bounce back?
Have you fallen asleep with your Cursor/finger on the QUOTE button Tony? ....
I find it just get's boring when you re-iterate/re-post/Quote the same stuff. In your last post I was looking for something new that you had added, but it was just a re-post
As you know, I agree with Mark (Mr. Edge), with me being a Brexiteer
Even though I've always really valued your opinion, and I read with interest Phil's post too, it still hasn't changed my mind. I want to see how the UK does without being in the ever expanding, Brussels controlled EU. After all we might be able to give Stoke, and several other of our run-down ex-industrial cities, several £millions of the £billions we give to the EU, which hopefully will help them compete on the Global World stage.
Do you believe that we can be worse off than we were after the recession of 2008, and if we are, do you believe that we will never bounce back?
Firstly the repost was finishing off the previous post dealing with Lucys criticism. I did it as 2 separate posts because it wouldn't all fit into one post. So it was an extension to the previous post, and was done to make a point. I don't necessarily agree with your point about agreeing with Mark just because you are both Brexiteers, as it is very clear that not all Brexiteers are in favour of the same outcome.
The more extreme supporters swear by no deal, others prefer leaving with a deal. These are split into favouring each of the different deals, with some favouring remaining close to the EU, others preferring to be more distant. So it is not a united front by any means.
I think your point about leaving to see how the UK does outside the EU, could turnout to be a very expensive experiment. Bear in mind that we currently have preferential terms of membership, that are unlikely to be retained if we rejoined. I am not sure what makes you say the next bit, but substitute Westminster, for Brussels, and the UK for the EU, and it suddenly becomes more acceptable. To give run down cities extra money from the money saved from our EU contributions is a nice thought, but extremely unlikely. Firstly it is unclear that there will be any savings due to the massive increased costs, due to the huge number of customs officers required to implement the changes etc,etc. Secondly they have already spent more than our gross contribution on extra money for the NHS. Thirdly, had this Government been in favour of providing extra money for run down areas, they could have done so while we were still members. Boris is spending money like it is going out of fashion, where did it come from? We have also spent £billions on no deal preparations, which shouldn't be considered, and therefore a complete waste of money. These billions was much better spent on run down areas. We already compete on the world stage. We currently access deals with over 70 countries via our EU membership. Including recent deals with Japan, and a massive deal with South American countries. Liam Fox has spent the last 3 years unsuccessfully trying to roll these deals over. There is lots of talk of a US trade deal, but they are already our biggest trading partner outside of the EU. Who would be prepared to trust Donald Trump to honour any trade deal. Any deal with the US will be stopped unless a proper solution to the Irish border is found. Boris hasn't got one. All the fanatical Brexiteers that promote no deal, have recently been calling it a WTO Brexit. They are extolling the virtues of trading on WTO rules. I find this strange because we already have the right to trade with the rest of the world on WTO rules. That is the rest of the world that the EU don't have preferential trade deals with. So we could choose to maintain our trading relationship with our biggest customer, trade with half of the rest of world through the current deals, and the other half on WTO rules. The WTO trade would need to continue until the EU negotiated trade deals. Ask yourself the question is it better, and easier to negotiate trade deals as a small country or a trading bloc? We could have been improving our trade with the rest of the world throughout our membership. For example Germany do five or six times the trade we do with China, whilst we are both EU members. Why is that? You cant blame the EU. Jacob Rees-Mogg said that it might take 50 years to get back to where we are now. There is nothing about leaving that makes sense to me. What made you vote leave? I will just give you one quick example. Once we have left and become a third country, the testing we currently do will no longer be acceptable to the EU. I read an article regarding what this will mean in some cases. A container being exported into the EU is stopped on the border. No testing is available nearby, so a sample has to be taken, and sent away for testing. The results of the testing would take 6 days, and the container would be stored in the meantime. The storage cost was £700. So the exporter faces delays, substantial extra costs for storage, and possibly tariffs. If it was your business that was affected in this way, you would be unhappy. Every mini cam shaft is exported into the EU 3 times before being installed, tariffs would kill the business. There is only one respected economist that disputes that no deal would be a disaster. Why do it? What do we gain that is tangible? In which way will your life change for the better after we leave?
To do it just to see how we do outside the EU, is a bit like getting your legs amputated to see if you could walk faster on false legs. In both cases it is a bit of a disaster if you are proved wrong.
Jacob Rees Mogadishu said it might take 50 years for our economy to recover....so that’s progress?
The leave campaign wanted to take back control of our money, our borders, and our laws.
Assuming we do leave, we will take back control of money, but it is worth much less, and the administration costs of not being members will exceed the cost of our membership.
We are controlling our borders, by causing delays, and not having one in Ireland.
If we intend to continue any trade with the EU, the ECJ will be a factor.
The plan would seem to be Queens Speech on 14th October. Five days of debate must follow, then a vote that is considered a confidence vote. If Parliament succeeded in a no confidence vote, fourteen days are allowed for a new Government to be formed. This of course will mean that the leaving deadline will have passed, and we will have left with no deal. Parliament will not stand for this, but it is unclear whether they will be able to stop it.
The plan would seem to be Queens Speech on 14th October. Five days of debate must follow, then a vote that is considered a confidence vote. If Parliament succeeded in a no confidence vote, fourteen days are allowed for a new Government to be formed. This of course will mean that the leaving deadline will have passed, and we will have left with no deal. Parliament will not stand for this, but it is unclear whether they will be able to stop it.
We will have to see what Mr Bercow can conjure up.
If it's forced though this way, civil unrest must be a real possibility.
The plan would seem to be Queens Speech on 14th October. Five days of debate must follow, then a vote that is considered a confidence vote. If Parliament succeeded in a no confidence vote, fourteen days are allowed for a new Government to be formed. This of course will mean that the leaving deadline will have passed, and we will have left with no deal. Parliament will not stand for this, but it is unclear whether they will be able to stop it.
We will have to see what Mr Bercow can conjure up.
If it's forced though this way, civil unrest must be a real possibility.
Jacob Rees Mogadishu said it might take 50 years for our economy to recover....so that’s progress?
Strange, I just said that.
sorry didnt read yours...was just responding to jezza's (@misty4me) blind optimism...If he knew that Daveena's prosecco was gonna go up in price with Eu tariffs, he wudda voted remain!
Jacob Rees Mogadishu said it might take 50 years for our economy to recover....so that’s progress?
Strange, I just said that.
sorry didnt read yours...was just responding to jezza's (@misty4me) blind optimism...If he knew that Daveena's prosecco was gonna go up in price with Eu tariffs, he wudda voted remain!
The plan would seem to be Queens Speech on 14th October. Five days of debate must follow, then a vote that is considered a confidence vote. If Parliament succeeded in a no confidence vote, fourteen days are allowed for a new Government to be formed. This of course will mean that the leaving deadline will have passed, and we will have left with no deal. Parliament will not stand for this, but it is unclear whether they will be able to stop it.
We will have to see what Mr Bercow can conjure up.
If it's forced though this way, civil unrest must be a real possibility.
He has overstepped, succeeded in uniting all the opposition parties, and in my view will definitely come unstuck.
Jacob Rees Mogadishu said it might take 50 years for our economy to recover....so that’s progress?
Strange, I just said that.
sorry didnt read yours...was just responding to jezza's (@misty4me) blind optimism...If he knew that Daveena's prosecco was gonna go up in price with Eu tariffs, he wudda voted remain!
Nah...... just get the Aussie (She likes the Wolf Blass sparkling one you get in Wetherspoons for the same price as the Italian one ) or South African, or even better a Californian one
Jacob Rees Mogadishu said it might take 50 years for our economy to recover....so that’s progress?
Strange, I just said that.
sorry didnt read yours...was just responding to jezza's (@misty4me) blind optimism...If he knew that Daveena's prosecco was gonna go up in price with Eu tariffs, he wudda voted remain!
Nah...... just get the Aussie (She likes the Wolf Blass sparkling one you get in Wetherspoons for the same price as the Italian one ) or South African, or even better a Californian one
You are as bad as Edge.
On another matter Rod contacted me this morning to let me know that Charlie has died.
Jacob Rees Mogadishu said it might take 50 years for our economy to recover....so that’s progress?
Strange, I just said that.
sorry didnt read yours...was just responding to jezza's (@misty4me) blind optimism...If he knew that Daveena's prosecco was gonna go up in price with Eu tariffs, he wudda voted remain!
Nah...... just get the Aussie (She likes the Wolf Blass sparkling one you get in Wetherspoons for the same price as the Italian one ) or South African, or even better a Californian one
You are as bad as Edge......... I KNOW
On another matter Rod contacted me this morning to let me know that Charlie has died.
Jacob Rees Mogadishu said it might take 50 years for our economy to recover....so that’s progress?
Strange, I just said that.
sorry didnt read yours...was just responding to jezza's (@misty4me) blind optimism...If he knew that Daveena's prosecco was gonna go up in price with Eu tariffs, he wudda voted remain!
Nah...... just get the Aussie (She likes the Wolf Blass sparkling one you get in Wetherspoons for the same price as the Italian one ) or South African, or even better a Californian one
You are as bad as Edge......... I KNOW
On another matter Rod contacted me this morning to let me know that Charlie has died.
Jacob Rees Mogadishu said it might take 50 years for our economy to recover....so that’s progress?
Strange, I just said that.
sorry didnt read yours...was just responding to jezza's (@misty4me) blind optimism...If he knew that Daveena's prosecco was gonna go up in price with Eu tariffs, he wudda voted remain!
Nah...... just get the Aussie (She likes the Wolf Blass sparkling one you get in Wetherspoons for the same price as the Italian one ) or South African, or even better a Californian one
You are as bad as Edge......... I KNOW
On another matter Rod contacted me this morning to let me know that Charlie has died.
Comments
I haven't disappeared it's just that every time I answer you then seem compelled to not understand my answer.
Firstly M.P.s have only their own selfish little enclaves at heart. Their behaviour throughout the whole process confirms this.
No deal was never discussed because those arrogant people running the Country never thought they could lose.
The time taken reflects the I don't want to go attitude of those in power. Tough matey its not your decision to make it was ours and we made it.
Its not the Irish Border its the European Border and its merely being used as a tool by all sides and why should I have a solution ? I am neither a diplomat or a politician. That;s what those overpaid civil servants get their perkish lifestyles for.
My attitude has softened in that I might be able to stomach a deal but with the caveat that the ECJ or ECHR are not applicable in the UK and that any European manufacturers have to commit to the UK for at least 30 years.
Remember that its not all about us. Europe doesn't want/ cant afford to lose the UK so let them come to us to make the deals rather than us scratching around like some grubby back street dealer trying to appease the big supplier.
Why did I vote to leave ? because I see a big picture maybe 30/40/50 years down the line where Europe is run from the Hague / Brussels and national governments are reduced to nothing more than County Councils. All national identity is lost and the whole thing becomes a dysfunctional parody of the U.S.
Also i remember the hysteria whipped up by the supposed experts when we chose to eschew the Euro, the recessions, the poverty, the death of business, the negative impact on trade. Sound familiar ? The truth was we went along without too much trouble unlike Ireland, Greece twice, Portugal, Italy and Spain.
Maybe the biggest benefit of a post brexit society will be that in future politicians of all sides will be under no illusion that they are there, elected by us to serve us, and it will always be a reminder that the real power of a Nation lies with its people. Black or white, rich or poor, man or woman, gay or straight, left or right or centre, believer or atheist etc. This is our United Kingdom and if we decide to drive it off a cliff that's our business.
Now yes that's a little radical but lets be honest it doesn't really matter does it ? I mean I can't think of an aspect of my life has been improved by our membership of the EU. My City has not received EU funding to regenerate or even to retrain the tens of thousands of Potters, Miners and Steelworkers who lost their jobs since I left school with many of the last two being lost to Europe.
The final irony is that all we have now is warehousing and that's only because we stand less than a mile from the M6 and are smack in the middle of the North - South and East - West trunking routes. And who staffs these warehouses ? well its mainly European workers and good luck to them they work damned hard for their money.
That's why stoke on Trent voted 70% leave and if you consider that the 2 Universities have around 9,000 students then the core figure of permanent residents would probably have yielded a higher % than that considering nearly all students voted remain.
So there you have it. Were not knuckle dragging racist bigots, opposing immigrants and foreigners. But like a stale marriage where your partner is no longer giving any support, comfort or love sometimes its just better to walk away and face the future on your own. Not so much a case of what have you done for me lately but a case of what have you ever done for me.
Life is all about opinions.
My opinion is totally different to yours.
"No deal" was discussed. Every single pro-leave campaigner stated in 2016 that the very thought was preposterous. Because it is. It is a totally different question as to whether we should leave.
You can't blame Civil Servants. The EU (and our last Government) proposed a deal. We refuse to accept it, refuse to offer anything in its place, and seem to believe it is the EU that are being irrational. Sad.
"Stomach a deal"? 50% of our TOTAL import/export trade is with the EU. As much as the rest of the world put together. We have traded on simple terms for 45 years. And now we have no clue what is to happen next.
Of course the EU needs the UK. Just not as much as we need them. 50% of our trade is with the EU-for the EU it is closer to 5% trade with the UK. Germany can trade with the other 27 members of the EU instead of us.
The idea that post-Brexit politicians will be there to serve us? Yeah, right. And Stoke will be in the Champions League. Next season.
Stoke not received funding? Of course it has. As an example, it received £19 million from the EU for that very purpose in May, and has received lots of money before that. Has it received enough?-Probably not. But it won't receive any more from a UK Government.
Potters lost their jobs because of changing tastes and cheap imports from outside the EU. Mining becaus we decided not to subsidise our coal in the way Poland was-when Poland was not in the EU. Steel was ruined by cheap Chinese imports. All nothing to do with us being in, or out, of the EU. But people would rather blame the EU than the actual reasons.
Knuckle-dragging racists are invariably Leave supporters. But the reverse is certainly not true-there are still millions of entirely sensible people who genuinely believe that British politicians are more trustworthy than European ones.
What has Europe done for us?
1. Provided UK citizens the right to live, work and retire anywhere in the EU (subject to the sensible financial conditions that we forgot to have)
2. Freedom to travel
3. Most of our Consumer Protection legislation
4. Invaluable information-sharing concerning cross-border crime. The crimes that are almost always cross-border are drugs, terrorism and paedophilia
5. Rules to protect the environment
6. Millions of jobs
7. The rules for international trade that we have relied on for 45 years. Not saying they can't be changed, but we have absolutely no idea what is to happen next
Is the EU perfect? Of course not. But it was Plan A. And we are about to tear it up with no Plan B whatsoever.
I find it just get's boring when you re-iterate/re-post/Quote the same stuff.
In your last post I was looking for something new that you had added, but it was just a re-post
As you know, I agree with Mark (Mr. Edge), with me being a Brexiteer
Even though I've always really valued your opinion, and I read with interest Phil's post too, it still hasn't changed my mind. I want to see how the UK does without being in the ever expanding, Brussels controlled EU. After all we might be able to give Stoke, and several other of our run-down ex-industrial cities, several £millions of the £billions we give to the EU, which hopefully will help them compete on the Global World stage.
Do you believe that we can be worse off than we were after the recession of 2008, and if we are, do you believe that we will never bounce back?
I don't necessarily agree with your point about agreeing with Mark just because you are both Brexiteers, as it is very clear that not all Brexiteers are in favour of the same outcome.
The more extreme supporters swear by no deal, others prefer leaving with a deal. These are split into favouring each of the different deals, with some favouring remaining close to the EU, others preferring to be more distant. So it is not a united front by any means.
I think your point about leaving to see how the UK does outside the EU, could turnout to be a very expensive experiment. Bear in mind that we currently have preferential terms of membership, that are unlikely to be retained if we rejoined.
I am not sure what makes you say the next bit, but substitute Westminster, for Brussels, and the UK for the EU, and it suddenly becomes more acceptable.
To give run down cities extra money from the money saved from our EU contributions is a nice thought, but extremely unlikely.
Firstly it is unclear that there will be any savings due to the massive increased costs, due to the huge number of customs officers required to implement the changes etc,etc.
Secondly they have already spent more than our gross contribution on extra money for the NHS.
Thirdly, had this Government been in favour of providing extra money for run down areas, they could have done so while we were still members.
Boris is spending money like it is going out of fashion, where did it come from?
We have also spent £billions on no deal preparations, which shouldn't be considered, and therefore a complete waste of money.
These billions was much better spent on run down areas.
We already compete on the world stage. We currently access deals with over 70 countries via our EU membership. Including recent deals with Japan, and a massive deal with South American countries.
Liam Fox has spent the last 3 years unsuccessfully trying to roll these deals over.
There is lots of talk of a US trade deal, but they are already our biggest trading partner outside of the EU. Who would be prepared to trust Donald Trump to honour any trade deal. Any deal with the US will be stopped unless a proper solution to the Irish border is found. Boris hasn't got one.
All the fanatical Brexiteers that promote no deal, have recently been calling it a WTO Brexit. They are extolling the virtues of trading on WTO rules.
I find this strange because we already have the right to trade with the rest of the world on WTO rules. That is the rest of the world that the EU don't have preferential trade deals with.
So we could choose to maintain our trading relationship with our biggest customer, trade with half of the rest of world through the current deals, and the other half on WTO rules. The WTO trade would need to continue until the EU negotiated trade deals.
Ask yourself the question is it better, and easier to negotiate trade deals as a small country or a trading bloc?
We could have been improving our trade with the rest of the world throughout our membership. For example Germany do five or six times the trade we do with China, whilst we are both EU members. Why is that? You cant blame the EU.
Jacob Rees-Mogg said that it might take 50 years to get back to where we are now.
There is nothing about leaving that makes sense to me.
What made you vote leave?
I will just give you one quick example.
Once we have left and become a third country, the testing we currently do will no longer be acceptable to the EU. I read an article regarding what this will mean in some cases. A container being exported into the EU is stopped on the border. No testing is available nearby, so a sample has to be taken, and sent away for testing. The results of the testing would take 6 days, and the container would be stored in the meantime. The storage cost was £700. So the exporter faces delays, substantial extra costs for storage, and possibly tariffs. If it was your business that was affected in this way, you would be unhappy. Every mini cam shaft is exported into the EU 3 times before being installed, tariffs would kill the business.
There is only one respected economist that disputes that no deal would be a disaster.
Why do it?
What do we gain that is tangible?
In which way will your life change for the better after we leave?
To do it just to see how we do outside the EU, is a bit like getting your legs amputated to see if you could walk faster on false legs.
In both cases it is a bit of a disaster if you are proved wrong.
Assuming we do leave, we will take back control of money, but it is worth much less, and the administration costs of not being members will exceed the cost of our membership.
We are controlling our borders, by causing delays, and not having one in Ireland.
If we intend to continue any trade with the EU, the ECJ will be a factor.
This can't be true, can it?
Government to ask Queen to suspend Parliament
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632
Parliament will not stand for this, but it is unclear whether they will be able to stop it.
Government to ask Queen to suspend Parliament
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632
We will have to see what Mr Bercow can conjure up.
If it's forced though this way, civil unrest must be a real possibility.
There are moves afoot to stop him.
We have a conman as a Prime Minister.
Despicable in my view.
On another matter Rod contacted me this morning to let me know that Charlie has died.