Just thought I would add some figures to your questions re online poker.
When the Starsgroup published its results for the nine months to the end of September 2019 revenue from poker (excluding Sky poker) was down 6.4% on a constant currency basis (i.e removing the impact of currency movements when making comparisons) compared to the same 9 months in 2018. This compares to revenue from Sky Poker being down 10.2% when looking at the same period. Revenue changes may not only be due to the volume of players, but also changes to rake etc, but I feel that the figures above probably given a fair reflection of what it happening and tends to back up the "feel".
I should mention that I have not bothered to check the results of other online poker companies, but hope this helps.
You’d probably want to look at market share if you’re only looking at one site, their results may not be indicative if their losing custom to say Party or others.
Wonder how the average age of players has been changing over time, might give a feel for the long term.
Perhaps different formats are becoming more or less popular. Difficult to work out without all the numbers.
The structures are obviously way better now at places like DTD although for my local casino and I guess it’s the same with others I don’t like the obsession with giving you a trillion chips but huge blinds and 15 or 20 minute clocks
Yep, I don't bother with the tournaments you describe.
"We have to finish at a reasonable time because people have work tomorrow" so let's have 15 minute blinds, but we also need a nice long LR and re-entry period so everyone starts with 200 bigs. Also lets have unnecessary filler levels like 75/150, then have both 100/200/0 and 100/200/25 (or 200 BB ante) early on, because that's an extra 30-40 minutes for someone to get coolered and buy back in, but kill the structure later on to accommodate the filler levels.
Come up with a time you want the tournament to start and finish. Build a structure accordingly, then worry about how long LR should be. Doesn't matter if the last level of LR is 10 bigs - people can decide not to register, turn up half an hour earlier next week, or come another day.
Live poker in the UK? No idea. There's no central database to measure that. I certainly don't think it's being helped by events with 4 or 5 Day 1's & unlimited re-entries, which of course strongly favours the better players. I don't begrudge the better players having that advantage, not at all, good luck to them, but it means many would-be "Live" players no longer play live.
The rebuys/re-entries is a tough one - I'm not against re-entries, but at least like to see a better balance where at least some tournaments are freezeouts.
Alternatively, maybe have unlimited re-entries, but charge an extra 5-10% on the re-entry contribution to the prize pool (e.g. £200 + £25 becomes £210-220, plus £25 if the re-entry is raked). That way, the pros re-entering half a dozen times also add some extra money to the prize pool, which might keep recs happy with them being able to re-enter.
--- ---
One of the big gripes with live Poker for me is the ~£7 or so min rake on everything too, which is a big problem when casinos also try to have cheap games. I get that we need enough rake for the casino to not lose money running Poker, and to pay the staff. But if your tournament is £15 + £7 (46.7% rake) then I'm staying at home, whether it's a crapshoot or not. £35+£7 and a half decent structure maybe I'll play for a change from the online grind and hopefully make a few quid.
Idk how much live recs care about rake, but when it's as OTT as the £15 + £7 you see in places nowadays, that can't be helping the game at all.
That screenshot above is the schedule for my local casino (it's about a 10-15 minute walk from my flat), but I hardly ever play there - All of the regular weekly MTTs are a complete waste of my time due to the absurd rake %, and I think recs will see that amount of rake and also realise they don't have a chance.
They used to have a decent £50 + £7 game here on Saturdays, starting at 4pm with a 24 minute clock I believe - but it missed the guarantee a couple of times so they got rid of it, and it's since been replaced by the shower of sh*te you see on there now. The Poker manager was reluctant to get rid of it, but apparently the big bosses didn't give him much choice.
You gotta be kidding me. That's worse than the Downtown stuff in Vegas at Binions and Golden Nugget, which can be as much as 28%.
I believe (from looking at schedules as opposed to any official source) that minimum £7 rake on an MTT is the standard across all G Casino MTTs nationwide now, even for a £15 buy-in.
EDIT: Genting schedules don't look much better, either.
Well played last night Rooney ran the show and we were absolutely awful keep it up and the play offs beckon
Hi mate I was in a bit of shock when i first read “well played last night” I played very badly at poker and i’ve done a bunch of cash over the last 2 nights
But then i saw you meant Derby Yeah, it was a surprise. We actually looked ok. I looked at your side before the game and thought we’d get hammered. You should be top 6 with that like up but you were pretty awful last night.
It will take a bit of pressure of Cocu. He’s had some ridiculous stick. People saying rubbish like he’s out of his depth and doesn’t know what he’s doing. Err ok 100 caps for Holland, 100s of games for Barca and managed in the Champions Leagie!
Bring back Non league Nigel!
I doubt Klopp could get any more out of the players at Cocus disposal. We lost our 4 best players from last season in the loans and Keogh Bizarrely we loaned a quality keeper to play no football and have 2 very average replacemts Decent experienced Championship players in Johnson and Bryson left the club. Injuries have been bad. All long term. The most recent being our 10 million signing out for the season
Write this season off and go again in the summer and judge Cocu at the end of next season
About once every couple of years i have a proper blow up. It happened last Sunday I started off with £100 in my account By 2 am i had deposited a further £1350
It was going pretty well earlier and i was deep in the £33bh I bust in ugly fashion with 2 hands back to back going wrong. I got taunted by Steveysee when he knocked be out. So i maturely called him a ‘bellend’.
I started playing cash at 100nl and it was interesting. Well interesting if you like car crashes. I was playing Loueytong heads up and not running too well. I was limping into each hand with my whole range as he liked to then raise between 9x to 14x
He made a lot of straights Particular highlight was having JQ on JJ6 rainbow and him firing big on the flop. He had 10 8 Runner runner straights for £365 aren’t great when you’re holding the JQ
He seemed a really nice guy. I was in for about £900 on that table and he suggested we stop. And he wasn’t being a ****.. I felt good in the game and was playing ok so i carried on. I did make about £500 back.
I played a lot of everything last week Mtts i ran very bad in and other than a 2nd in the 7.30 £22bh i lost plenty. Dyms i had a couple of nights where i lost my first 9 games. Cash i had some bad ones but i also had some decent luck at times I beat Aces on the river for a £265 pot where I hit trip Kings with AK. The money had already gone in long before
A few more went my way for £150+ pots
I’m totally lost my way with mtts. I think at first i was playing ok but over the last few nights i’ve been terrible. Overly timid at times because i expected bad beats and then just stupidly spewy at other times.
Tonight started in similar vein. I bust the main sat and thought here we go again. I opened AK and flopped A 2 2 He led the turn which was another 2 and we got it in on the river. 52 won
I then played a bit better in the £22bh and i ran well. I ended up winning that for £316
I’ve made a lot of points so far and i’m well ahead of schedule for priority. I think i should carry on with the volume this month as priority would be well worth it as i’ve played quite a bit of cash
I’ve really questioned myself about a number of things Even after all these years i react so poorly to running bad and it’s not something i’m proud of. I’ve had a small rant in chatboxes maybe once every couple of nights. It’s not a lot but it’s too many and pathetic. I don’t think i’ve abused anyone so that’s ok (except Steeveysee and i’m ok with that one ) But silly grumbling in chat boxes is rubbish
About once every couple of years i have a proper blow up. It happened last Sunday I started off with £100 in my account By 2 am i had deposited a further £1350
It was going pretty well earlier and i was deep in the £33bh I bust in ugly fashion with 2 hands back to back going wrong. I got taunted by Steveysee when he knocked be out. So i maturely called him a ‘bellend’.
I started playing cash at 100nl and it was interesting. Well interesting if you like car crashes. I was playing Loueytong heads up and not running too well. I was limping into each hand with my whole range as he liked to then raise between 9x to 14x
He made a lot of straights Particular highlight was having JQ on JJ6 rainbow and him firing big on the flop. He had 10 8 Runner runner straights for £365 aren’t great when you’re holding the JQ
He seemed a really nice guy. I was in for about £900 on that table and he suggested we stop. And he wasn’t being a ****.. I felt good in the game and was playing ok so i carried on. I did make about £500 back.
I played a lot of everything last week Mtts i ran very bad in and other than a 2nd in the 7.30 £22bh i lost plenty. Dyms i had a couple of nights where i lost my first 9 games. Cash i had some bad ones but i also had some decent luck at times I beat Aces on the river for a £265 pot where I hit trip Kings with AK. The money had already gone in long before
A few more went my way for £150+ pots
I’m totally lost my way with mtts. I think at first i was playing ok but over the last few nights i’ve been terrible. Overly timid at times because i expected bad beats and then just stupidly spewy at other times.
Tonight started in similar vein. I bust the main sat and thought here we go again. I opened AK and flopped A 2 2 He led the turn which was another 2 and we got it in on the river. 52 won
I then played a bit better in the £22bh and i ran well. I ended up winning that for £316
I’ve made a lot of points so far and i’m well ahead of schedule for priority. I think i should carry on with the volume this month as priority would be well worth it as i’ve played quite a bit of cash
I’ve really questioned myself about a number of things Even after all these years i react so poorly to running bad and it’s not something i’m proud of. I’ve had a small rant in chatboxes maybe once every couple of nights. It’s not a lot but it’s too many and pathetic. I don’t think i’ve abused anyone so that’s ok (except Steeveysee and i’m ok with that one ) But silly grumbling in chat boxes is rubbish
Must do better
Loueytong sounds like a dude. I vowed not to grumble-rant in the chatbox a few years ago but when you're downswonging a treat it's difficult not to. Ul in that hand btw when you x/r the turn - I'd fold quite a bit there - and rivered a set.
It was Harry’s 6th birthday on the 5th We went to Jumping Fun and he loved it. He looks like he had a few the night before here
I thought i’d treat him to a trip out to Stoke on Sunday. We went to Waterworld. It cost a fortune but it was very good
His Mum is going through 4 weeks of Radiotherapy at the moment and she’s coping very well
We’re considering moving to Crich and so i took my Mum there to have a look around. In hindsight going to a place in the sticks at the top of a big hill when there is heavy snow isn’t that smart. It was fine on the way but when it got really heavy we made a sharpish exit. Autos and snow don’t go that well together and i was concerned that Tikays wall at Bullbridge may come into play
No poker tonight as i’m staying at a friends. Watching Derby tomorrow but may play a little after that We’d probably take 2nd place right now but the title would be nice
In local news a gentleman whose surname isn’t Smith or Jones was caught speeding at over 100mph and given a prison term
He totally deserved it
The comments are so so sad though
“Scum...deport”
“Won’t be his fault at all. he won’t feel like belongs or is welcomed in British society. prison is no deterrent at all. a chance to mingle with similar, dealing, extremism etc”
And these comments get plenty of ‘likes’
When did it become ok for people to feel safe to be horrible racists again?
In local news a gentleman whose surname isn’t Smith or Jones was caught speeding at over 100mph and given a prison term
He totally deserved it
The comments are so so sad though
“Scum...deport”
“Won’t be his fault at all. he won’t feel like belongs or is welcomed in British society. prison is no deterrent at all. a chance to mingle with similar, dealing, extremism etc”
And these comments get plenty of ‘likes’
When did it become ok for people to feel safe to be horrible racists again?
It's become more open & "acceptable" in the last few years.
We can blame people like Nigel Farage - &, let's not forget, all who supported him - for normalising the view that people from other countries, especially those with different colour skin - are in some way inferior, or less entitled, than us white folk.
Yesterday, a plane load of West Indians were deported as they had a criminal record.
Rolf Harris, however, who is a convicted paedo, was not deported & faces no such threat. He's white, of course.
In local news a gentleman whose surname isn’t Smith or Jones was caught speeding at over 100mph and given a prison term
He totally deserved it
The comments are so so sad though
“Scum...deport”
“Won’t be his fault at all. he won’t feel like belongs or is welcomed in British society. prison is no deterrent at all. a chance to mingle with similar, dealing, extremism etc”
And these comments get plenty of ‘likes’
When did it become ok for people to feel safe to be horrible racists again?
It's become more open & "acceptable" in the last few years.
We can blame people like Nigel Farage - &, let's not forget, all who supported him - for normalising the view that people from other countries, especially those with different colour skin - are in some way inferior, or less entitled, than us white folk.
Yesterday, a plane load of West Indians were deported as they had a criminal record.
Rolf Harris, however, who is a convicted paedo, was not deported & faces no such threat. He's white, of course.
Unusually for me i’m going to have another small gripe today
Something else which has been irking me for some time People think that write can write truly offensive things on the internet and if anyone doesn’t like it then they can hit them with “you’re a snowflake” to shut them up and put them in their place
In local news a gentleman whose surname isn’t Smith or Jones was caught speeding at over 100mph and given a prison term
He totally deserved it
The comments are so so sad though
“Scum...deport”
“Won’t be his fault at all. he won’t feel like belongs or is welcomed in British society. prison is no deterrent at all. a chance to mingle with similar, dealing, extremism etc”
And these comments get plenty of ‘likes’
When did it become ok for people to feel safe to be horrible racists again?
It's become more open & "acceptable" in the last few years.
We can blame people like Nigel Farage - &, let's not forget, all who supported him - for normalising the view that people from other countries, especially those with different colour skin - are in some way inferior, or less entitled, than us white folk.
Yesterday, a plane load of West Indians were deported as they had a criminal record.
Rolf Harris, however, who is a convicted paedo, was not deported & faces no such threat. He's white, of course.
Don't get me started on racism, please...
I’ve been thinking about this some more I do mostly agree with what you said
But is it possible also that things haven’t actually changed that much other than there are now multiple ways for these people to express their horrid views and so we see them more? Facebook, twitter etc Their egos being massaged by all the cretins who ‘like’ or give thumbs up to their posts
There have been plenty of Tommy Robinson’s in years gone by but they largely went un noticed
Now they have the platforms to express their views far more
Comments
Just thought I would add some figures to your questions re online poker.
When the Starsgroup published its results for the nine months to the end of September 2019 revenue from poker (excluding Sky poker) was down 6.4% on a constant currency basis (i.e removing the impact of currency movements when making comparisons) compared to the same 9 months in 2018. This compares to revenue from Sky Poker being down 10.2% when looking at the same period. Revenue changes may not only be due to the volume of players, but also changes to rake etc, but I feel that the figures above probably given a fair reflection of what it happening and tends to back up the "feel".
I should mention that I have not bothered to check the results of other online poker companies, but hope this helps.
Thanks for that TOOTRUE
Wonder how the average age of players has been changing over time, might give a feel for the long term.
Perhaps different formats are becoming more or less popular. Difficult to work out without all the numbers.
"We have to finish at a reasonable time because people have work tomorrow" so let's have 15 minute blinds, but we also need a nice long LR and re-entry period so everyone starts with 200 bigs. Also lets have unnecessary filler levels like 75/150, then have both 100/200/0 and 100/200/25 (or 200 BB ante) early on, because that's an extra 30-40 minutes for someone to get coolered and buy back in, but kill the structure later on to accommodate the filler levels.
Come up with a time you want the tournament to start and finish. Build a structure accordingly, then worry about how long LR should be. Doesn't matter if the last level of LR is 10 bigs - people can decide not to register, turn up half an hour earlier next week, or come another day.
The rebuys/re-entries is a tough one - I'm not against re-entries, but at least like to see a better balance where at least some tournaments are freezeouts.
Alternatively, maybe have unlimited re-entries, but charge an extra 5-10% on the re-entry contribution to the prize pool (e.g. £200 + £25 becomes £210-220, plus £25 if the re-entry is raked). That way, the pros re-entering half a dozen times also add some extra money to the prize pool, which might keep recs happy with them being able to re-enter.
---
---
One of the big gripes with live Poker for me is the ~£7 or so min rake on everything too, which is a big problem when casinos also try to have cheap games. I get that we need enough rake for the casino to not lose money running Poker, and to pay the staff. But if your tournament is £15 + £7 (46.7% rake) then I'm staying at home, whether it's a crapshoot or not. £35+£7 and a half decent structure maybe I'll play for a change from the online grind and hopefully make a few quid.
Idk how much live recs care about rake, but when it's as OTT as the £15 + £7 you see in places nowadays, that can't be helping the game at all.
That screenshot above is the schedule for my local casino (it's about a 10-15 minute walk from my flat), but I hardly ever play there - All of the regular weekly MTTs are a complete waste of my time due to the absurd rake %, and I think recs will see that amount of rake and also realise they don't have a chance.
They used to have a decent £50 + £7 game here on Saturdays, starting at 4pm with a 24 minute clock I believe - but it missed the guarantee a couple of times so they got rid of it, and it's since been replaced by the shower of sh*te you see on there now. The Poker manager was reluctant to get rid of it, but apparently the big bosses didn't give him much choice.
£15 + £7 reg fee?
You gotta be kidding me. That's worse than the Downtown stuff in Vegas at Binions and Golden Nugget, which can be as much as 28%.
EDIT: Genting schedules don't look much better, either.
I was in a bit of shock when i first read “well played last night”
I played very badly at poker and i’ve done a bunch of cash over the last 2 nights
But then i saw you meant Derby
Yeah, it was a surprise. We actually looked ok. I looked at your side before the game and thought we’d get hammered. You should be top 6 with that like up but you were pretty awful last night.
It will take a bit of pressure of Cocu. He’s had some ridiculous stick. People saying rubbish like he’s out of his depth and doesn’t know what he’s doing.
Err ok
100 caps for Holland, 100s of games for Barca and managed in the Champions Leagie!
Bring back Non league Nigel!
I doubt Klopp could get any more out of the players at Cocus disposal.
We lost our 4 best players from last season in the loans and Keogh
Bizarrely we loaned a quality keeper to play no football and have 2 very average replacemts
Decent experienced Championship players in Johnson and Bryson left the club.
Injuries have been bad. All long term. The most recent being our 10 million signing out for the season
Write this season off and go again in the summer and judge Cocu at the end of next season
I’m £64 down for the month so far
It doesn’t really tell the full story though
It’s been a bit of a rollercoaster
About once every couple of years i have a proper blow up.
It happened last Sunday
I started off with £100 in my account
By 2 am i had deposited a further £1350
It was going pretty well earlier and i was deep in the £33bh
I bust in ugly fashion with 2 hands back to back going wrong. I got taunted by Steveysee when he knocked be out. So i maturely called him a ‘bellend’.
I started playing cash at 100nl and it was interesting. Well interesting if you like car crashes.
I was playing Loueytong heads up and not running too well. I was limping into each hand with my whole range as he liked to then raise between 9x to 14x
He made a lot of straights
Particular highlight was having JQ on JJ6 rainbow and him firing big on the flop. He had 10 8
Runner runner straights for £365 aren’t great when you’re holding the JQ
He seemed a really nice guy. I was in for about £900 on that table and he suggested we stop. And he wasn’t being a ****..
I felt good in the game and was playing ok so i carried on. I did make about £500 back.
I played a lot of everything last week
Mtts i ran very bad in and other than a 2nd in the 7.30 £22bh i lost plenty.
Dyms i had a couple of nights where i lost my first 9 games.
Cash i had some bad ones but i also had some decent luck at times
I beat Aces on the river for a £265 pot where I hit trip Kings with AK. The money had already gone in long before
A few more went my way for £150+ pots
I’m totally lost my way with mtts.
I think at first i was playing ok but over the last few nights i’ve been terrible.
Overly timid at times because i expected bad beats and then just stupidly spewy at other times.
Tonight started in similar vein. I bust the main sat and thought here we go again. I opened AK and flopped A 2 2
He led the turn which was another 2 and we got it in on the river. 52 won
I then played a bit better in the £22bh and i ran well.
I ended up winning that for £316
I’ve made a lot of points so far and i’m well ahead of schedule for priority. I think i should carry on with the volume this month as priority would be well worth it as i’ve played quite a bit of cash
I’ve really questioned myself about a number of things
Even after all these years i react so poorly to running bad and it’s not something i’m proud of.
I’ve had a small rant in chatboxes maybe once every couple of nights. It’s not a lot but it’s too many and pathetic. I don’t think i’ve abused anyone so that’s ok (except Steeveysee and i’m ok with that one
But silly grumbling in chat boxes is rubbish
Must do better
Good luck with the priority mission.
Hope the rest of the month is better for you.
Having read that, a £64 loss sounds like a right result.
And a big up to Lewis, aka @loueytong. Proper bloke by the sound of it.
It was Harry’s 6th birthday on the 5th
We went to Jumping Fun and he loved it.
He looks like he had a few the night before here
I thought i’d treat him to a trip out to Stoke on Sunday. We went to Waterworld. It cost a fortune but it was very good
His Mum is going through 4 weeks of Radiotherapy at the moment and she’s coping very well
We’re considering moving to Crich and so i took my Mum there to have a look around. In hindsight going to a place in the sticks at the top of a big hill when there is heavy snow isn’t that smart.
It was fine on the way but when it got really heavy we made a sharpish exit. Autos and snow don’t go that well together and i was concerned that Tikays wall at Bullbridge may come into play
No poker tonight as i’m staying at a friends. Watching Derby tomorrow but may play a little after that
We’d probably take 2nd place right now but the title would be nice
In local news a gentleman whose surname isn’t Smith or Jones was caught speeding at over 100mph and given a prison term
He totally deserved it
The comments are so so sad though
“Scum...deport”
“Won’t be his fault at all. he won’t feel like belongs or is welcomed in British society. prison is no deterrent at all. a chance to mingle with similar, dealing, extremism etc”
And these comments get plenty of ‘likes’
When did it become ok for people to feel safe to be horrible racists again?
It's become more open & "acceptable" in the last few years.
We can blame people like Nigel Farage - &, let's not forget, all who supported him - for normalising the view that people from other countries, especially those with different colour skin - are in some way inferior, or less entitled, than us white folk.
Yesterday, a plane load of West Indians were deported as they had a criminal record.
Rolf Harris, however, who is a convicted paedo, was not deported & faces no such threat. He's white, of course.
Don't get me started on racism, please...
The question was rhetorical
Modern Britain
Something else which has been irking me for some time
People think that write can write truly offensive things on the internet and if anyone doesn’t like it then they can hit them with “you’re a snowflake” to shut them up and put them in their place
Clowns
I do mostly agree with what you said
But is it possible also that things haven’t actually changed that much other than there are now multiple ways for these people to express their horrid views and so we see them more?
Facebook, twitter etc
Their egos being massaged by all the cretins who ‘like’ or give thumbs up to their posts
There have been plenty of Tommy Robinson’s in years gone by but they largely went un noticed
Now they have the platforms to express their views far more