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Confusion.

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    chilling said:

    Close all the pubs and open the theatres.
    Let’s give the better clientele their chance.
    The idiots have had theres.

    Here is another little one.
    Most commentators refer to our test and trace as not fit for purpose, and openly laugh at the world beating description that Boris gave it.
    This is despite paying consultants £7k per day.
    The test and trace is gradually worsening, and had their worst week last week contacting only 62%.
    Why do you think that the local test and trace are reaching figures of 98 and 99%?
  • RinkhalsRinkhals Member Posts: 212
    Here's an idea.

    Lift every single restriction, return to work to get your full salry but don't start bit*hing when the body count goes through the roof and the nhs runs out of space in the ICU.

    Burnham and Starmer would be just as useless so don't kid yourself they'd handle it any better. Oh and 2/3rds of your wage for sitting on your arris is a lot better than having to claim jobseekers allowance of about £75.00 a week.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    Rinkhals said:

    Here's an idea.

    Lift every single restriction, return to work to get your full salry but don't start bit*hing when the body count goes through the roof and the nhs runs out of space in the ICU.

    Burnham and Starmer would be just as useless so don't kid yourself they'd handle it any better. Oh and 2/3rds of your wage for sitting on your arris is a lot better than having to claim jobseekers allowance of about £75.00 a week.

    I dont understand the point you are trying to make.
  • RinkhalsRinkhals Member Posts: 212
    I'm trying to make 2 points.

    1) It wouldn't matter who is in charge. There are insuffient medical resources to cope if all the restrictions where lifted and we went back to a pre pandemic existance.

    2) Under normal conditions those who's jobs are at risk would not receive 2/3rds of their salary until the economy recovered. Name one economic crash where that course of action was taken by any government. The banking crisis being a prime example. Thousands lost their jobs and had to sign on. At least this time the government is trying to help people stay in employment as best it can.

    It can't be blamed for causing the crisis and it strikes me they are in a no win situation. That's why I say it's irrelevant who's in power. There's no easy solution or way.

    New Zealand got a grip on itbut at the cost of putting the country into recession. It also has a much smaller population and the initial restrictions where severe.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    Rinkhals said:

    Here's an idea.

    Lift every single restriction, return to work to get your full salry but don't start bit*hing when the body count goes through the roof and the nhs runs out of space in the ICU.

    Burnham and Starmer would be just as useless so don't kid yourself they'd handle it any better. Oh and 2/3rds of your wage for sitting on your arris is a lot better than having to claim jobseekers allowance of about £75.00 a week.

    You seem to be adopting the @chilling method of debating.
    I dont think it matters if anyone would do better or not.
    Boris and his government are in position, and should be accountable for their actions.

    I dont think that anyone is in doubt that there have to be restrictions.
    Boris the man who always follows the science, is ignoring them on this occasion.
    He has just about ignored all the SAGE advice given to him on 21st September.
    They dont think that he has gone far enough.

    This thread is about confusion.
    The last two points I have made are as follows.
    Boris has been criticised for communicating unclear messages.
    The three tier system was designed to make everything clear.
    Yet there are a number of differences in the restrictions imposed on different areas in the same tier.
    I will just pick one of them.
    Liverpool and Lancashire are in the same tier.
    Gym owners can keep them open in Lancashire, but not in Liverpool.
    Why is that?


    This was the other point.
    Most commentators refer to our test and trace as not fit for purpose, and openly laugh at the world beating description that Boris gave it.
    This is despite paying consultants £7k per day.
    The test and trace is gradually worsening, and had their worst week last week contacting only 62%.
    Why do you think that the local test and trace are reaching figures of 98 and 99%?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    Rinkhals said:

    I'm trying to make 2 points.

    1) It wouldn't matter who is in charge. There are insuffient medical resources to cope if all the restrictions where lifted and we went back to a pre pandemic existance.

    We did have sufficient medical resources throughout the national lockdown.
    The Nightingale hospitals were barely used.
    If anything there is an argument for more restrictions rather than less.


    2) Under normal conditions those who's jobs are at risk would not receive 2/3rds of their salary until the economy recovered. Name one economic crash where that course of action was taken by any government. The banking crisis being a prime example. Thousands lost their jobs and had to sign on. At least this time the government is trying to help people stay in employment as best it can.

    I complimented the government on the financial package they put in place for the national lockdown.
    I am not an economics professor, and wouldnt really have a clue about weighing up the lost tax revenue of an employee, in addition to having to pay them benefits, against the government funds required to save their job.
    There is also the blatantly obvious factor which is that infected people that are unable to afford to stay at home from work, are likely to go to work and infect others.


    It can't be blamed for causing the crisis and it strikes me they are in a no win situation. That's why I say it's irrelevant who's in power. There's no easy solution or way.

    I dont this government has been very effective.
    We have seen u-turn after u-tirn.
    I am not going through all their mistakes as there are so many.
    Why did they force students back to University, which resulted in increasing infections and almost immediately stop face to face teaching.
    Many are now stuck in halls of residence.
    What was the point?
    I read an article this week which was about York University informing their infected students, that if the fire alarm goes off they have to stay where they are for one minute, so they dont infect others while leaving the building.
    Dont start me off about the track and trace which is not fit for purpose, rather than world beating.
    Or the £millions we spent buying useless PPE from a Turkish tee shirt salesman.


    New Zealand got a grip on itbut at the cost of putting the country into recession. It also has a much smaller population and the initial restrictions where severe.

    We could have done so much better.
  • madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,458
    A circuit break/lockdown is needed as we are fast approaching too many cases/deaths....I heard a really profound quote recently regarding the lockdown and the economy

    " You can't resurrect the dead, but you can resurrect the economy..ok, some businesses will go and some people will lose jobs but eventually it and they will recover...the dead won't..."

    ( and I speak from the position of having earned money from only 2 days work this year..1*30 guests at a wedding-it was a 100 and 1*12 at a dinner party...currently selling my house as my mortgage holiday is over so I count myself in the soon to close my business and soon to be 'unemployed')
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    madprof said:

    A circuit break/lockdown is needed as we are fast approaching too many cases/deaths....I heard a really profound quote recently regarding the lockdown and the economy

    " You can't resurrect the dead, but you can resurrect the economy..ok, some businesses will go and some people will lose jobs but eventually it and they will recover...the dead won't..."

    ( and I speak from the position of having earned money from only 2 days work this year..1*30 guests at a wedding-it was a 100 and 1*12 at a dinner party...currently selling my house as my mortgage holiday is over so I count myself in the soon to close my business and soon to be 'unemployed')

    I havent received a bean from the government, but I dont suppose I will be left out of the paying it back plan.
    Although I dont suppose there is any point in moaning about it.


    The government put 20 areas into local lockdowns.
    The increased level of restrictions was supposed to reduce infection levels.
    Of the 20 that went in, only 1 came out, this was despite the fact that infection rates had increased from the time it went in.
    In the other 19 areas infections have increased hand over fist.
    For instance Manchester went into the local lockdown on July 31st, with an infection rate of 35 per 100,000.
    A week ago that rate had increased to around 560.
    That is over 11 weeks.
    How long should anyone continue with measures that seem ineffective, before putting more restrictions in place?
  • madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,458
    HAYSIE said:

    madprof said:

    A circuit break/lockdown is needed as we are fast approaching too many cases/deaths....I heard a really profound quote recently regarding the lockdown and the economy

    " You can't resurrect the dead, but you can resurrect the economy..ok, some businesses will go and some people will lose jobs but eventually it and they will recover...the dead won't..."

    ( and I speak from the position of having earned money from only 2 days work this year..1*30 guests at a wedding-it was a 100 and 1*12 at a dinner party...currently selling my house as my mortgage holiday is over so I count myself in the soon to close my business and soon to be 'unemployed')

    I havent received a bean from the government, but I dont suppose I will be left out of the paying it back plan.
    Although I dont suppose there is any point in moaning about it.


    The government put 20 areas into local lockdowns.
    The increased level of restrictions was supposed to reduce infection levels.
    Of the 20 that went in, only 1 came out, this was despite the fact that infection rates had increased from the time it went in.
    In the other 19 areas infections have increased hand over fist.
    For instance Manchester went into the local lockdown on July 31st, with an infection rate of 35 per 100,000.
    A week ago that rate had increased to around 560.
    That is over 11 weeks.
    How long should anyone continue with measures that seem ineffective, before putting more restrictions in place?
    @HAYSIE

    Tony, if I wasn’t clear..I wasn’t moaning or looking for any sympathy! Just illustrating that even though lockdown has damaged us significantly, I still agree that we need further lockdowns to curb unnecessary deaths
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    madprof said:

    HAYSIE said:

    madprof said:

    A circuit break/lockdown is needed as we are fast approaching too many cases/deaths....I heard a really profound quote recently regarding the lockdown and the economy

    " You can't resurrect the dead, but you can resurrect the economy..ok, some businesses will go and some people will lose jobs but eventually it and they will recover...the dead won't..."

    ( and I speak from the position of having earned money from only 2 days work this year..1*30 guests at a wedding-it was a 100 and 1*12 at a dinner party...currently selling my house as my mortgage holiday is over so I count myself in the soon to close my business and soon to be 'unemployed')

    I havent received a bean from the government, but I dont suppose I will be left out of the paying it back plan.
    Although I dont suppose there is any point in moaning about it.


    The government put 20 areas into local lockdowns.
    The increased level of restrictions was supposed to reduce infection levels.
    Of the 20 that went in, only 1 came out, this was despite the fact that infection rates had increased from the time it went in.
    In the other 19 areas infections have increased hand over fist.
    For instance Manchester went into the local lockdown on July 31st, with an infection rate of 35 per 100,000.
    A week ago that rate had increased to around 560.
    That is over 11 weeks.
    How long should anyone continue with measures that seem ineffective, before putting more restrictions in place?
    @HAYSIE

    Tony, if I wasn’t clear..I wasn’t moaning or looking for any sympathy! Just illustrating that even though lockdown has damaged us significantly, I still agree that we need further lockdowns to curb unnecessary deaths
    I didnt have any intention of accusing you of moaning.

    You have been put in a difficult predicament, through no fault of your own.

    I sympathise with you, and all those in a similar position.
  • chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    One last visit until maybe next weekend.

    Lockdowns won’t make much difference for weeks. Acting sensibly outside your home is the best way forward, always has been.
    So you think test and trace is of great importance, only 62% were traced.
    So what about all the overs that have never had a test, especially the asymptomatic ones.
    What is the logic behind test and trace, if you’re only finding some folk who have come forward for a test in the first place. Then repeat, repeat every day? It’s not necessary as few will get ill taking the whole population into account. 8 out of 10 showing no symptoms.
    The deaths will need to rise substantially for the penny to drop with some. There again, it may never drop.
    You seem to be focusing on Covid deaths, but not other causes of deaths.
    It’s a pain for the doctors and nurses to take in Covid patients, because of the easy transmission.
    You’re whinging at the government, when you should be whinging at others.
    I would keep most things open, stats back that up.
    Who cares about transmission if the vulnerable have assessed their own risk.
    Otherwise, you’ll just be chasing your tail.
    How many critically ill or deaths will come from school kids or University students?
    More will statistically die from flu or other causes.
    Unfortunately, this country is the worst for health issues in the whole of Europe.
    Which will make it more difficult here than elsewhere to stop hospitals from filling up.
    You can’t turn back the clock regarding bad health.
    I’m still waiting for your master plan. Can I see the draft?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862




    "MPs did flout 10pm bar curfew" it declares after confirmation from an official inquiry that politicians drank their way past 22:00 in the Commons bar while the public had to go without.



    The paper says there is still an ongoing cover up about whether or not Matt Hancock was present, as inquiry officials did not ask, and a spokesman for the health secretary refused to answer the question - despite being asked 30 times.

    The Sunday Express also runs the story reporting that the Tory MP behind the inquiry, Charles Walker, refused to identify the MPs involved as it would be "invidious".

    The former chairman of the Standards Committee, Sir Alistair Graham, disagrees.

    "If they're trying to apply rules in a rigorous way," he asks "why shouldn't they ask staff which MPs they were serving?"

    Online, the Independent leads with a poll which suggests that only a third of the public who responded backed Boris Johnson to lead the UK's Covid response.

    It claims that both the PM and Mr Hancock have lost the trust of the British public while the poll shows that Labour's Sir Keir Starmer, Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon and Chancellor Rishi Sunak all received higher trust ratings.

    An unusual counterpoint of praise comes from Nigel Farage writing in the Sunday Express.

    "It took time, but Boris has reached the right solution on Brexit" he concludes, referring to the PM's ultimatum to Brussels and declaration that talks were over.

    The campaigner and Brexit Party leader believes there is still a 75% probability of a negotiated deal based on the EU treaty, but he insists that, regardless, being completely free of the EU is still the best route to future prosperity.




  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    Coronavirus: Poll shows lack of trust in Boris Johnson as Britons feel the financial pinch from pandemic



    British voters do not trust Boris Johnson and his health secretary Matt Hancock to beat coronavirus, according to a new survey – and less than a quarter (22 per cent) think it would be reasonable for ministers to expect them to keep obeying restrictions on their social and economic lives beyond the spring.

    The poll of 1,500 people was conducted as Mr Johnson struggled to maintain his grip on his regional coronavirus policy, with councils in the north rejecting his efforts to tighten local restrictions and Labour’s Sir Keir Starmer demanding a national “circuit-breaker” lockdown.

    It found that just 36 per cent now trust the prime minister to lead the response to the pandemic, against 44 per who do not – an overall rating of -8. For Mr Hancock, the figures were more damning, with a trust rating of -13 based on just 26 per cent trusting him and 39 per cent expressing distrust.

    The most trusted politician was chancellor Rishi Sunak, whose +19 rating of 44 per cent trust compared to 23 per cent distrust was no doubt buoyed by his role handing out close to £200bn in state support, including a furlough scheme paying up to 80 per cent of wages for employees unable to work.

    Nicola Sturgeon had a +13 trust rating (42 - 29 per cent), soaring to +22 (52 - 30 per cent) in Scotland, while Starmer’s positive rating was a more modest +9 (36 - 27 per cent).

    Levels of trust in the key pandemic experts were comfortably higher, with chief medical officer for England Chris Whitty scoring +25 (41 - 16 per cent) and chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance +21 (36 - 15 per cent).

    “Our own research found that eight in 10 hard-up families are financially worse-off as a result of the pandemic. Despite this, there has been no financial support from the government specifically targeted at families with children.”

    “Our own research forecasts that if we don’t take action as a nation, our network of food banks will be giving out six food parcels a minute this winter.

    BMG head of polling Robert Struthers said: “Boris Johnson’s own personal ratings strengthened as the first wave of the pandemic hit the UK back in February and March of this year.

    “Now, as the second wave of the virus takes hold, it appears public trust has slipped away.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/coronavirus-poll-shows-lack-of-trust-in-boris-johnson-as-britons-feel-the-financial-pinch-from-pandemic/ar-BB1a8ezY?ocid=msedgntp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    chilling said:

    One last visit until maybe next weekend.

    Lockdowns won’t make much difference for weeks. Acting sensibly outside your home is the best way forward, always has been.
    So you think test and trace is of great importance, only 62% were traced.
    So what about all the overs that have never had a test, especially the asymptomatic ones.
    What is the logic behind test and trace, if you’re only finding some folk who have come forward for a test in the first place. Then repeat, repeat every day? It’s not necessary as few will get ill taking the whole population into account. 8 out of 10 showing no symptoms.
    The deaths will need to rise substantially for the penny to drop with some. There again, it may never drop.
    You seem to be focusing on Covid deaths, but not other causes of deaths.
    It’s a pain for the doctors and nurses to take in Covid patients, because of the easy transmission.
    You’re whinging at the government, when you should be whinging at others.
    I would keep most things open, stats back that up.
    Who cares about transmission if the vulnerable have assessed their own risk.
    Otherwise, you’ll just be chasing your tail.
    How many critically ill or deaths will come from school kids or University students?
    More will statistically die from flu or other causes.
    Unfortunately, this country is the worst for health issues in the whole of Europe.
    Which will make it more difficult here than elsewhere to stop hospitals from filling up.
    You can’t turn back the clock regarding bad health.
    I’m still waiting for your master plan. Can I see the draft?

    You claim a great understanding of everything, and then post this.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    edited October 2020
    chilling said:

    One last visit until maybe next weekend.

    Lockdowns won’t make much difference for weeks. Acting sensibly outside your home is the best way forward, always has been.

    The national lockdown worked.
    The local lockdowns havent.
    Manchester went from 35 infections per 100,000, to 560, during the 11 weeks they have been it the local lockdown.
    What was the point?




    So you think test and trace is of great importance, only 62% were traced.



    You are using the inefficiency on the track and trace system, to minimise its importance.
    Scientists say that track and trace is of paramount importance.
    They also say that it is pointless unless you catch 80%.
    Local systems are catching 98, and 99%.
    Why continue with the national system?




    So what about all the overs that have never had a test, especially the asymptomatic ones.

    What are overs?
    Testing needs also to be efficient, more tests are needed, and a shorter turnaround on results.






    What is the logic behind test and trace, if you’re only finding some folk who have come forward for a test in the first place. Then repeat, repeat every day? It’s not necessary as few will get ill taking the whole population into account. 8 out of 10 showing no symptoms.



    For someone who knows everything about everything, you seem to be sadly lacking in the fundamentals.
    The whole point of test, track, and trace, is to find those that are infected, quarantine them, as well as those they have been in contact with, and limit the spread of the virus.
    What dont you understand about that?




    The deaths will need to rise substantially for the penny to drop with some. There again, it may never drop.

    Which penny?



    You seem to be focusing on Covid deaths, but not other causes of deaths.

    I havent.
    This thread is about the confusion caused by the government.
    Why do I need to keep reminding you?
    Are you going to bring WMDs into it?






    It’s a pain for the doctors and nurses to take in Covid patients, because of the easy transmission.


    Arent doctors the best people to protect themselves?


    You’re whinging at the government, when you should be whinging at others.

    I am not.
    I am sharing my view that they have made many poor decisions.



    I would keep most things open, stats back that up.


    On the contrary, the local lockdowns show that more restrictions need to be implemented.
    This is the view of SAGE.




    Who cares about transmission if the vulnerable have assessed their own risk.


    The government is supposed to.


    Otherwise, you’ll just be chasing your tail.


    They are.


    How many critically ill or deaths will come from school kids or University students?

    I dont suppose anyone knows yet.
    Why send the uni students back, stop face to face teaching, and keep them locked up?



    More will statistically die from flu or other causes.


    And your point is?
    This is one of the more ridiculous, and pointless things you have said.




    Unfortunately, this country is the worst for health issues in the whole of Europe.

    Really?


    Which will make it more difficult here than elsewhere to stop hospitals from filling up.
    You can’t turn back the clock regarding bad health.

    Your point?


    I’m still waiting for your master plan. Can I see the draft?

    Unfortunately it is Boris and the government that need a master plan, or perhaps a world beating one.
  • madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,458
    We don’t have a government...we have a regime
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    edited October 2020
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
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