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Master Plan.

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    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    For a start, I’m not daft enough to believe some deaths werent due to advice given out.
    Some folks were going to, and will continue to die from or through having the virus.
    It’s a pandemic after all, younger folks are also dying from it.
    From what I gather, councils were encouraged to increase capacities in hospitals.
    So , there are more folks involved than just Ministers.
    You had sick elderly in hospitals and in care homes.
    You may have had care homes with no cases or lots of cases before patients were released.
    You may have had others infecting elderly in hospitals or the care homes.
    It wasn’t one way traffic, elderly were taken from care homes to hospitals were they died.
    There were and still are care homes that had no cases,one of my sisters works in one that had no cases, and still has none.
    It’s like advice given out by the government on restrictions ,some play the game , others won’t.
    Do you blame the Government for every single death , even outside hospitals?
    There are lots of players involved in dealing with a pandemic, the public making up by far, the majority.
    By saying the care homes are “ ringfenced” leaves Hancock open to precisely what that meant.
    I’d presume he never called or emailed each care home or council personally, and the actions were taken in hospitals and care homes by others.
    Do the public think that there are going to be no more deaths by or through Covid in the future?
    Who is going to carry the blame for future deaths? That list of potential culprits could be very long.
    The lack of PPE around the world was the cause of most deaths,imo.
    I could give you a long list of countries where that occurred.
    It took the WHO until June to recommend mask wearing.
    Even though that it was known to be a human to human virus in January.
    Mr Ryan sitting on the end, shuffling his papers about, looking all important.
    And he’s an expert? That must make us all experts then. Where’s my cheque?
    I’ll accept bitcoin short term.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
    edited September 2020
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
    chilling said:

    For a start, I’m not daft enough to believe some deaths werent due to advice given out.
    Some folks were going to, and will continue to die from or through having the virus.
    It’s a pandemic after all, younger folks are also dying from it.
    From what I gather, councils were encouraged to increase capacities in hospitals.
    So , there are more folks involved than just Ministers.
    You had sick elderly in hospitals and in care homes.
    You may have had care homes with no cases or lots of cases before patients were re
    You may have had others infecting elderly in hospitals or the care homes.
    It wasn’t one way traffic, elderly were taken from care homes to hospitals were they died.
    There were and still are care homes that had no cases,one of my sisters works in one that had no cases, and still has none.
    It’s like advice given out by the government on restrictions ,some play the game , others won’t.
    Do you blame the Government for every single death , even outside hospitals?
    There are lots of players involved in dealing with a pandemic, the public making up by far, the majority.
    By saying the care homes are “ ringfenced” leaves Hancock open to precisely what that meant.
    I’d presume he never called or emailed each care home or council personally, and the actions were taken in hospitals and care homes by others.
    Do the public think that there are going to be no more deaths by or through Covid in the future?
    Who is going to carry the blame for future deaths? That list of potential culprits could be very long.
    The lack of PPE around the world was the cause of most deaths,imo.
    I could give you a long list of countries where that occurred.
    It took the WHO until June to recommend mask wearing.
    Even though that it was known to be a human to human virus in January.
    Mr Ryan sitting on the end, shuffling his papers about, looking all important.
    And he’s an expert? That must make us all experts then. Where’s my cheque?
    I’ll accept bitcoin short term.

    Here you go again.
    You cant seem to grasp the simplest of things.
    You make an accusation which isnt true.
    I repeat the only point I had made in relation to your accusation.
    I then ask you to respond to this single point, but you cant.
    You go off at a tangent.
    You wander through Europe despite the fact we have left the EU.
    Many of the points you make are irrelevant, others untrue, and some contradict your previous comments.

    The point was about the Government allowing 25,000 patients to be discharged from hospitals into care homes without being tested, while the virus was peaking.
    These people were among the most vulnerable.
    This undoubtedly caused thousands of deaths.
    Yet you seem to see nothing wrong with it.
    I have given up asking you questions, as you seem incapable of answering them, but some questions seem so obvious.
    One of which is why didnt they test them first, and only discharge those with negative tests.

    Another widely publicised problem with care homes is that many of their staff work at multiple care homes, and were allowed to go from home to home, untested.
    Allowing them to infect other staff, and residents in multiple homes.
    The Government has finally started to address this issue, nine months later.


    You have a huge problem which is that you simply cant stomach any criticism of the Government full stop.
    Even when they fully deserve criticism.

    You accuse me of stuff, yet you are unable to substantiate your claims.
    I have asked you to do this a number of times



    What have I posted that is untrue?

    Which topics do I know f... all about?

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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
    'Don’t bake in a tent': Boris Johnson's painful week as a punchline




    “We are now approaching phase 46,” waffled Matt Lucas in his best impression of an Etonian drawl, sporting a messy blond wig and a No 10-style podium.

    “If you must bake in a tent, bake in a tent – but, please, don’t bake in a tent!”

    But the skit cast him less as the joker, more as a joke. The idea that the prime minister is not up to the job appears to have gone mainstream.

    The scale of discontent in the Tory party is extraordinary for a government with a thumping majority, so early in its term, and in the teeth of a national crisis.

    Sir Graham Brady, the chair of the 1922 Committee of backbench MPs, has won the support of 46 MPs, most of them Tory colleagues, for his amendment aimed at forcing
    the government to consult parliament more regularly on its handling of coronavirus.

    The rebels stretch across the Conservative party, from Damian Green on its One Nation wing to Steve Baker the Brexit-backing “Spartan”, and they are numerous enough to inflict defeat on their own government.

    Johnson’s “friends” briefed the Times last week that he was not enjoying the job of prime minister, beset by money worries without the prop of his £275,000 columnist’s salary and struggling to afford a nanny for baby Wilfred.




    And for a prime minister who has become a laughing stock, it looks a very long road to the next general election in 2024.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/don-t-bake-in-a-tent-boris-johnson-s-painful-week-as-a-punchline/ar-BB19rbIW?ocid=msedgntp

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    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    What do you mean by the Government “ allowed” ?
    Was there a bill/ legislation passed through Parliament that I missed?
    A new law stating nobody goes in or out of care homes or hospitals without 100% certainty of being virus free. That would be rather odd, seeing as no other country implemented that.
    The Government said from the start that the U.K. are world leaders in some sciences, but are behind a lot of countries in diagnostics.
    Guidance/ advice is not law.
    NHS workers are not civil servants.


    Germany had lots of diagnostic centres, while the U.K. France, Spain and many more countries had far fewer.
    Lots of countries were ripped off by Chinese companies that provided s hite tests that were flawed.
    For any entrepreneurs out there that can make material things out of fresh air, please PM me.
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    madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,305
    I’ve stayed away from commenting too much, can’t see the point when there are such blinkered views....but I’ll share an example of this corrupt bunch of self serving......really, don’t get me started on these Toryterwats

    When we received millions of £ of PPE from Turkey we were told it was useless as it didn’t meet the UK standards...what wasn’t explained was in the desperate attempt to prove the UK was better than the EU, the PPE actually met the EU standards, it just didn’t meet the newly created UK standards ( we couldn’t possibly use that inferior EU PPE could we..)

    The only problem was we didn’t have these UK standards in place, we just thought we had to be better...





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    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    So it’s reasonable to think that everybody in hospital with the virus, young or old, would have survived?
    I watched the OJ case, and the Louise Woodward case, and they went on and on.
    But, gl to those that pursue their cases, they’ll need it.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
    chilling said:

    So it’s reasonable to think that everybody in hospital with the virus, young or old, would have survived?
    I watched the OJ case, and the Louise Woodward case, and they went on and on.
    But, gl to those that pursue their cases, they’ll need it.

    You have completely lost the plot.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
    madprof said:

    I’ve stayed away from commenting too much, can’t see the point when there are such blinkered views....but I’ll share an example of this corrupt bunch of self serving......really, don’t get me started on these Toryterwats

    When we received millions of £ of PPE from Turkey we were told it was useless as it didn’t meet the UK standards...what wasn’t explained was in the desperate attempt to prove the UK was better than the EU, the PPE actually met the EU standards, it just didn’t meet the newly created UK standards ( we couldn’t possibly use that inferior EU PPE
    could we..)

    The only problem was we didn’t have these UK standards in place, we just thought we had to be better...

    Blinkered views?
  • Options
    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    So it’s reasonable to think that everybody in hospital with the virus, young or old, would have survived?
    I watched the OJ case, and the Louise Woodward case, and they went on and on.
    But, gl to those that pursue their cases, they’ll need it.

    You have completely lost the plot.
    So you want to hold the government responsible, with what outcome?
    Slap on the b um?
  • Options
    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    I’ll stick something on my thread,I’m sure you’ll find it amusing. @ Titter Twitter Twatter.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
    chilling said:

    What do you mean by the Government “ allowed” ?
    Was there a bill/ legislation passed through Parliament that I missed?
    A new law stating nobody goes in or out of care homes or hospitals without 100% certainty of being virus free. That would be rather odd, seeing as no other country implemented that.
    The Government said from the start that the U.K. are world leaders in some sciences, but are behind a lot of countries in diagnostics.
    Guidance/ advice is not law.
    NHS workers are not civil servants.


    Germany had lots of diagnostic centres, while the U.K. France, Spain and many more countries had far fewer.
    Lots of countries were ripped off by Chinese companies that provided s hite tests that were flawed.
    For any entrepreneurs out there that can make material things out of fresh air, please PM me.

    It is really hard work explaining stuff to you.

    Coronavirus: Sending untested patients to care homes 'reckless' - MPs



    The decision to allow hospital patients in England to be discharged to care homes without Covid-19 tests at the start of the pandemic has been described as "reckless" by MPs.

    The Public Accounts Committee said there had clearly been an "emerging problem" with official advice before it was "belatedly" changed in April.

    It accused ministers of being slow to support social care during the crisis.

    The government said it had been "working closely" with the sector.

    The committee said around 25,000 patients were discharged into care homes in England between mid-March and mid-April to free up hospital beds.

    After initially saying a negative result was not required before discharging patients, the government later said on 15 April all patients would be tested .

    In a highly critical report, the cross-party committee said the initial decision to allow
    untested patients into care homes was an "appalling error".




    However the committee said the policy of discharging untested patients continued "even once it was clear there was an emerging problem".
    Regular testing for staff and residents in care homes in England was rolled out earlier this month .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-53574265

  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
    chilling said:

    What do you mean by the Government “ allowed” ?
    Was there a bill/ legislation passed through Parliament that I missed?
    A new law stating nobody goes in or out of care homes or hospitals without 100% certainty of being virus free. That would be rather odd, seeing as no other country implemented that.
    The Government said from the start that the U.K. are world leaders in some sciences, but are behind a lot of countries in diagnostics.
    Guidance/ advice is not law.
    NHS workers are not civil servants.


    Germany had lots of diagnostic centres, while the U.K. France, Spain and many more countries had far fewer.
    Lots of countries were ripped off by Chinese companies that provided s hite tests that were flawed.
    For any entrepreneurs out there that can make material things out of fresh air, please PM me.


    Matt Hancock, you may have heard of him?


    THE NHS – WHO’S IN CHARGE?

    Since its establishment in 1948, the Secretary of State for Health has held overall responsibility for the NHS.

    https://reform.uk/the-reformer/nhs-whos-charge
  • Options
    CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    edited September 2020
    Have felt from the off this whole thing is just not right and the restrictions put in place were a massive overreaction. Was an advocate of having the schools stay open too as the kids were always going to be ok.

    Putting a protective shield over the elderly and a targeted lockdown was the way to handle this at the start not nationwide lockdowns. You can't compare and apply the same rules to different parts of the nation either so having spiked areas in lockdown makes more sense.

    Although the virus is serious I just don't think the ends will justify the means given the knock on effects. Many of the deaths have been elderly and reading the National Records of Scotland 92% of deaths have been in care homes and hospitals where Covid was a factor, not the only factor.

    I feel most sorry for people who have more recently suffered job losses and the elderly on their own. It's an awful time for people in those situations especially.

    To have all this going on with job losses, lockdowns, people in so much turmoil and lives destroyed outwith the virus has and never will sit right with me no matter how is it dressed up in the media.
  • Options
    madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,305
    HAYSIE said:

    madprof said:

    I’ve stayed away from commenting too much, can’t see the point when there are such blinkered views....but I’ll share an example of this corrupt bunch of self serving......really, don’t get me started on these Toryterwats

    When we received millions of £ of PPE from Turkey we were told it was useless as it didn’t meet the UK standards...what wasn’t explained was in the desperate attempt to prove the UK was better than the EU, the PPE actually met the EU standards, it just didn’t meet the newly created UK standards ( we couldn’t possibly use that inferior EU PPE






    could we..)

    The only problem was we didn’t have these UK standards in place, we just thought we had to be better...

    Blinkered views?
    Singular then...view! >:)




  • Options
    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    HAYSIE said:

    chilling said:

    What do you mean by the Government “ allowed” ?
    Was there a bill/ legislation passed through Parliament that I missed?
    A new law stating nobody goes in or out of care homes or hospitals without 100% certainty of being virus free. That would be rather odd, seeing as no other country implemented that.
    The Government said from the start that the U.K. are world leaders in some sciences, but are behind a lot of countries in diagnostics.
    Guidance/ advice is not law.
    NHS workers are not civil servants.


    Germany had lots of diagnostic centres, while the U.K. France, Spain and many more countries had far fewer.
    Lots of countries were ripped off by Chinese companies that provided s hite tests that were flawed.
    For any entrepreneurs out there that can make material things out of fresh air, please PM me.


    Matt Hancock, you may have heard of him?


    THE NHS – WHO’S IN CHARGE?

    Since its establishment in 1948, the Secretary of State for Health has held overall responsibility for the NHS.

    https://reform.uk/the-reformer/nhs-whos-charge
    Wow. That’s enlightened me.
    Seeing as Matt has had a hard time of it, maybe a reshuffle?
    Give him something easier, maybe Home Secretary?
  • Options
    madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,305
    Cammykaze said:

    Have felt from the off this whole thing is just not right and the restrictions put in place were a massive overreaction. Was an advocate of having the schools stay open too as the kids were always going to be ok.

    Putting a protective shield over the elderly and a targeted lockdown was the way to handle this at the start not nationwide lockdowns. You can't compare and apply the same rules to different parts of the nation either so having spiked areas in lockdown makes more sense.

    Although the virus is serious I just don't think the ends will justify the means given the knock on effects. Many of the deaths have been elderly and reading the National Records of Scotland 92% of deaths have been in care homes and hospitals where Covid was a factor, not the only factor.

    I feel most sorry for people who have more recently suffered job losses and the elderly on their own. It's an awful time for people in those situations especially.

    To have all this going on with job losses, lockdowns, people in so much turmoil and lives destroyed outwith the virus has and never will sit right with me no matter how is it dressed up in the media.

    Unfortunately the reason why the majority of deaths were in care homes was the govt's panic to empty the hospitals of elderly patients, with or without covid back into ill prepared care home settings.

    There were reports of standoffs with ambulance staff and car home managers refusing to accept elderly patients back into care homes without the evidence of a test and were bullied into taking them, no matter what....lest we forget it was weeks before Matt Twatcock acknowledged the role of care homes with, oh yes a nice green enamel badge! it's been a Shakespearian sh it show by this govt from start to finish...



  • Options
    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    Cammykaze said:

    Have felt from the off this whole thing is just not right and the restrictions put in place were a massive overreaction. Was an advocate of having the schools stay open too as the kids were always going to be ok.

    Putting a protective shield over the elderly and a targeted lockdown was the way to handle this at the start not nationwide lockdowns. You can't compare and apply the same rules to different parts of the nation either so having spiked areas in lockdown makes more sense.

    Although the virus is serious I just don't think the ends will justify the means given the knock on effects. Many of the deaths have been elderly and reading the National Records of Scotland 92% of deaths have been in care homes and hospitals where Covid was a factor, not the only factor.

    I feel most sorry for people who have more recently suffered job losses and the elderly on their own. It's an awful time for people in those situations especially.

    To have all this going on with job losses, lockdowns, people in so much turmoil and lives destroyed outwith the virus has and never will sit right with me no matter how is it dressed up in the media.

    See, there lies the problem.
    Folks of all ages are for and against opening up, or going back to normal.
    The protests around the world haven’t been over deaths, but the lockdowns.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,505
    chilling said:

    What do you mean by the Government “ allowed” ?
    Was there a bill/ legislation passed through Parliament that I missed?
    A new law stating nobody goes in or out of care homes or hospitals without 100% certainty of being virus free. That would be rather odd, seeing as no other country implemented that.
    The Government said from the start that the U.K. are world leaders in some sciences, but are behind a lot of countries in diagnostics.
    Guidance/ advice is not law.
    NHS workers are not civil servants.
    Germany had lots of diagnostic centres, while the U.K. France, Spain and many more countries had far fewer.
    Lots of countries were ripped off by Chinese companies that provided s hite tests that were flawed.
    For any entrepreneurs out there that can make material things out of fresh air, please PM me.




    You probably missed this one.

    Coronavirus bill: summary of impacts


    This document provides a summary of impacts relating to clauses within the Coronavirus Bill 2020. As this is temporary, emergency legislation,

    Aims of the Bill
    The purpose of the Bill is to provide powers needed to respond to the current coronavirus epidemic.


    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-bill-summary-of-impacts/coronavirus-bill-summary-of-impacts



    Parliament surrendered role over Covid emergency laws, says Lady Hale
    Exclusive: former supreme court president criticises manner in which controls were enacted



    The Coronavirus Act 2020, passed in March, gave government “sweeping” powers alongside other “draconian” regulations, and “it is not surprising the police were as confused as the public as to what was law and what was not”, she says in an opening essay for a collection published on Monday and seen by the Guardian.


    Growing numbers of Tory MPs are increasingly unhappy about the way restrictions on everyday life have been forced into law without the Commons being effectively consulted. They intend to register a protest on Wednesday 30 September, when there will be a vote on renewing the provisions of the Coronavirus Act.

    The act gives the government a wide range of emergency powers to tackle the coronavirus crisis, although most of the Covid lockdown laws have been imposed using regulations under the Public Health Act 1984, which take effect prior to a parliamentary vote.

    At the weekend Sir Graham Brady, the chair of the Conservative backbench 1922 Committee, signalled his willingness to rebel against the government to ensure parliament gets a greater say.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/20/parliament-surrendered-role-over-covid-emergency-laws-says-lady-hale
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