'I dont like the word 'rigged'. In the example above' If the RNG is designed to favour certain players, by definition it is rigged.
So the losing players claiming it is rigged are completely wrong as to how it is rigged, whilst all the winning players claiming it's legitimate are wrong, despite the fact they must all experience what you do. You, a small winning player, who has only contributed £80 in rake for the site, are the only one who is onto the truth.
Also wouldn't rigging it in your opponent's favour be counter productive to sky? Nobody is going to go broke playing £1 husngs and the longer the match plays out, the more time you aren't registered for another game.
Bad players who shout its rigged... isnt it nearly always cos their hole big pair has lost and are they not always just hold em players? I have no interest in them agreeing with me.
Well you're addressing a very small player pool then.
My graph is constant upward direction. You dont have to be losing games to see what is happening, you just might have to 'win' the game 11 or 12 times in a heads up game before you get paid.... them survive 11 or 12 all ins low stacked, needing a miracle and getting it. If you stick to SNG's, then you can still win that game, its just the same deck as a cash deck works, its all running the same way, but you will see combined odds of terrific proportions over and over and over.... but still go on to win the game.
Its the sheer amount of miracles i have a problem with, even if i win... i can still see the maths isnt adding up.
|I just this morning (and in fact daily) lost to a guy at hi lo, who had joined as he thought was hold em... i think we got to 23 all ins in this one game when he was like holding JJ67 with flop AA 10.... id have AT23... and turn river would be 23 so he wud split for the low.. 23 times.... he didnt know game so was in complete trouble time and time again ....until it would do the set up hand where we both flopped FH and his was better.
I will see this over and over and over during any given session, on any given day. There is no maths in these decks, but if you are good, you can spot situations which are a bet with a real deck, check with an online deck.... raise with real deck, even fold with an online deck... its that obvious.
Even an experienced player like NChanning, surprisingly came out with the comment if you know how rng works you could manipulate it to win huge amounts.... you cant, cos its geared to helping out poor players, losing players..... if you winning your not going to be the one getting the help, believe me. Its about keeping the poor player on site, maintaining numbers, reducing poor player losses.
IE you can sit 40mins in a heads up as a 20yr experienced player and actually lose to someone who hasnt played before, or knows the rules.....
If the deck is that predictable and you know all the spots of when to bet/check/fold etc......why on earth do you only play 1 game at a time at the £1 level?
You have a license to print money with your superior deck knowledge. You are blessed with this unique ability. Don't waste it at the quid games.
Imagine playing poker for 20 years and actually believing all the shite you have written.
Yes refer to 2nd to last paragraph of the post, the answers there.... been so many of these posts, involving so many different people... read it properly before answering guys, its simple stuff....
So what happens if a good, winning player faces off against another good, winning player?
How does the RNG/deck know who to favour then?
I generally find its quite a normal game... its written to recognise, if it doesnt recognise the silly help element doesnt kick in...
Ok.
And how many hands are generally needed before the RNG can clock that it's 2 good players facing off and adjust the deck accordingly?
All players obviously have an ROI on the site, it will recognise that. Easy one that. And what happens when you join a new site and have no ROI? Everyone must have experienced that you run good initially wherever you play......
Ok....so.
Just to clarify what you are claiming, and please do correct me if I'm wrong.
You are saying that Sky use an RNG that isn't always random. The deck is stacked to favour a bad player, however not too stacked so that good players also can't sometimes win. If a good player comes up against another good player, then the RNG is sophisticated enough to realise pretty quickly that it doesn't need to get involved in any shady stuff and sort of reverts back to a 'normal' RNG for that game? The deck can recognise and work out the potential ROI of a player and adjust itself accordingly; good ROI vs bad ROI and the deck will favour the bad ROI. But good ROI vs good ROI then the deck takes a back seat and relaxes?
All this on a poker site where you can't/couldn't type 'Iraq' in the chatbox without it being **** out. Can't do antes. Can't do auto add-ons. Can't do MTT tokens properly. Can't even deal you into the first hands of the FT sometimes.
My graph is constant upward direction. You dont have to be losing games to see what is happening, you just might have to 'win' the game 11 or 12 times in a heads up game before you get paid.... them survive 11 or 12 all ins low stacked, needing a miracle and getting it. If you stick to SNG's, then you can still win that game, its just the same deck as a cash deck works, its all running the same way, but you will see combined odds of terrific proportions over and over and over.... but still go on to win the game.
Its the sheer amount of miracles i have a problem with, even if i win... i can still see the maths isnt adding up.
|I just this morning (and in fact daily) lost to a guy at hi lo, who had joined as he thought was hold em... i think we got to 23 all ins in this one game when he was like holding JJ67 with flop AA 10.... id have AT23... and turn river would be 23 so he wud split for the low.. 23 times.... he didnt know game so was in complete trouble time and time again ....until it would do the set up hand where we both flopped FH and his was better.
I will see this over and over and over during any given session, on any given day. There is no maths in these decks, but if you are good, you can spot situations which are a bet with a real deck, check with an online deck.... raise with real deck, even fold with an online deck... its that obvious.
Even an experienced player like NChanning, surprisingly came out with the comment if you know how rng works you could manipulate it to win huge amounts.... you cant, cos its geared to helping out poor players, losing players..... if you winning your not going to be the one getting the help, believe me. Its about keeping the poor player on site, maintaining numbers, reducing poor player losses.
IE you can sit 40mins in a heads up as a 20yr experienced player and actually lose to someone who hasnt played before, or knows the rules.....
If the deck is that predictable and you know all the spots of when to bet/check/fold etc......why on earth do you only play 1 game at a time at the £1 level?
You have a license to print money with your superior deck knowledge. You are blessed with this unique ability. Don't waste it at the quid games.
Imagine playing poker for 20 years and actually believing all the shite you have written.
Yes refer to 2nd to last paragraph of the post, the answers there.... been so many of these posts, involving so many different people... read it properly before answering guys, its simple stuff....
So what happens if a good, winning player faces off against another good, winning player?
How does the RNG/deck know who to favour then?
I generally find its quite a normal game... its written to recognise, if it doesnt recognise the silly help element doesnt kick in...
Ok.
And how many hands are generally needed before the RNG can clock that it's 2 good players facing off and adjust the deck accordingly?
All players obviously have an ROI on the site, it will recognise that. Easy one that. And what happens when you join a new site and have no ROI? Everyone must have experienced that you run good initially wherever you play......
Ok....so.
Just to clarify what you are claiming, and please do correct me if I'm wrong.
You are saying that Sky use an RNG that isn't always random. The deck is stacked to favour a bad player, however not too stacked so that good players also can't sometimes win. If a good player comes up against another good player, then the RNG is sophisticated enough to realise pretty quickly that it doesn't need to get involved in any shady stuff and sort of reverts back to a 'normal' RNG for that game? The deck can recognise and work out the potential ROI of a player and adjust itself accordingly; good ROI vs bad ROI and the deck will favour the bad ROI. But good ROI vs good ROI then the deck takes a back seat and relaxes?
All this on a poker site where you can't/couldn't type 'Iraq' in the chatbox without it being **** out. Can't do antes. Can't do auto add-ons. Can't do MTT tokens properly. Can't even deal you into the first hands of the FT sometimes.
My graph is constant upward direction. You dont have to be losing games to see what is happening, you just might have to 'win' the game 11 or 12 times in a heads up game before you get paid.... them survive 11 or 12 all ins low stacked, needing a miracle and getting it. If you stick to SNG's, then you can still win that game, its just the same deck as a cash deck works, its all running the same way, but you will see combined odds of terrific proportions over and over and over.... but still go on to win the game.
Its the sheer amount of miracles i have a problem with, even if i win... i can still see the maths isnt adding up.
|I just this morning (and in fact daily) lost to a guy at hi lo, who had joined as he thought was hold em... i think we got to 23 all ins in this one game when he was like holding JJ67 with flop AA 10.... id have AT23... and turn river would be 23 so he wud split for the low.. 23 times.... he didnt know game so was in complete trouble time and time again ....until it would do the set up hand where we both flopped FH and his was better.
I will see this over and over and over during any given session, on any given day. There is no maths in these decks, but if you are good, you can spot situations which are a bet with a real deck, check with an online deck.... raise with real deck, even fold with an online deck... its that obvious.
Even an experienced player like NChanning, surprisingly came out with the comment if you know how rng works you could manipulate it to win huge amounts.... you cant, cos its geared to helping out poor players, losing players..... if you winning your not going to be the one getting the help, believe me. Its about keeping the poor player on site, maintaining numbers, reducing poor player losses.
IE you can sit 40mins in a heads up as a 20yr experienced player and actually lose to someone who hasnt played before, or knows the rules.....
If the deck is that predictable and you know all the spots of when to bet/check/fold etc......why on earth do you only play 1 game at a time at the £1 level?
You have a license to print money with your superior deck knowledge. You are blessed with this unique ability. Don't waste it at the quid games.
Imagine playing poker for 20 years and actually believing all the shite you have written.
Yes refer to 2nd to last paragraph of the post, the answers there.... been so many of these posts, involving so many different people... read it properly before answering guys, its simple stuff....
So what happens if a good, winning player faces off against another good, winning player?
How does the RNG/deck know who to favour then?
I generally find its quite a normal game... its written to recognise, if it doesnt recognise the silly help element doesnt kick in...
Ok.
And how many hands are generally needed before the RNG can clock that it's 2 good players facing off and adjust the deck accordingly?
All players obviously have an ROI on the site, it will recognise that. Easy one that. And what happens when you join a new site and have no ROI? Everyone must have experienced that you run good initially wherever you play......
Ok....so.
Just to clarify what you are claiming, and please do correct me if I'm wrong.
You are saying that Sky use an RNG that isn't always random. The deck is stacked to favour a bad player, however not too stacked so that good players also can't sometimes win. If a good player comes up against another good player, then the RNG is sophisticated enough to realise pretty quickly that it doesn't need to get involved in any shady stuff and sort of reverts back to a 'normal' RNG for that game? The deck can recognise and work out the potential ROI of a player and adjust itself accordingly; good ROI vs bad ROI and the deck will favour the bad ROI. But good ROI vs good ROI then the deck takes a back seat and relaxes?
All this on a poker site where you can't/couldn't type 'Iraq' in the chatbox without it being **** out. Can't do antes. Can't do auto add-ons. Can't do MTT tokens properly. Can't even deal you into the first hands of the FT sometimes.
Ok.
And with that, this thread is officially done!
yes it is but i believe the rng aint right somehow and that is my opinion of it which i have the right to
I dont know why i have never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop, even though all i play is hi lo heads up and hundreds of thousands of hands, which is a problem for me, even if we are keeping away from unusual amounts of long odds coming in, which you will never agree with.
The ins and outs of the technical side of how this is arrived at, that is not my field and not something i feel i need to explain, but have had a guess at. The fact that i have never seen a hand, which is the bread and butter of hi lo players, is what i know.
Something that has never happened, a normal flop, although i see runner runner for Quads etc. I mean, you got to acknowledge that is very odd if nothing else.
I dont know why i have never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop, even though all i play is hi lo heads up and hundreds of thousands of hands, which is a problem for me, even if we are keeping away from unusual amounts of long odds coming in, which you will never agree with.
The ins and outs of the technical side of how this is arrived at, that is not my field and not something i feel i need to explain, but have had a guess at. The fact that i have never seen a hand, which is the bread and butter of hi lo players, is what i know.
Something that has never happened, a normal flop, although i see runner runner for Quads etc. I mean, you got to acknowledge that is very odd if nothing else.
You have "never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop"? "Something that has never happened, a normal flop"?
I don't play HU PLO8. But I have played millions of hands of PLO8/O8 etc on this and other sites. The hands you mention are not "normal"-they are no more (and no less) likely than lots of other hands. Guess what? I've seen lots of different flops. All exactly in line with what anyone would expect. Including thousands of exactly the sort of flops you claim never to have seen.
SB&G is a small-ish part of the Flutter Group. Sky Poker is a tiny part of SB&G-probably about 1%. PLO8 is a tiny part of Sky Poker. Almost certainly considerably less than 1%. Of the sites that offer PLO8, Sky has one of the lowest PLO8 offerings. Sky Poker has Software that barely functions, as @hhyftrftdr rightly pointed out. Even if it wanted to (and it would need to be totally mad to do so), it lacks the capability.
There has been a range of posters on this thread. Some from recreational players-who are the lifeblood of this (and every) site. And, from at least 3 people (off the top of my head, without going through this thread) who have played a lot of poker. And have made significant money.
the guy thats just lost a huge pot calling off, when obv obv beat and left himself shortstacked... that they automatically win the very next all in preflop, with a hand of 3 of a kind or better...
This has never happened to me. Whenever I have lost a big pot to a bad beat and shoved the remainder of my stack in preflop the next hand in a tilt induced fury, I have invariably lost.
Maybe I am not a bad enough player for the manipulated deck to feel the need to come to my rescue
I dont know why i have never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop, even though all i play is hi lo heads up and hundreds of thousands of hands, which is a problem for me, even if we are keeping away from unusual amounts of long odds coming in, which you will never agree with.
The ins and outs of the technical side of how this is arrived at, that is not my field and not something i feel i need to explain, but have had a guess at. The fact that i have never seen a hand, which is the bread and butter of hi lo players, is what i know.
Something that has never happened, a normal flop, although i see runner runner for Quads etc. I mean, you got to acknowledge that is very odd if nothing else.
You have "never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop"? "Something that has never happened, a normal flop"?
I don't play HU PLO8. But I have played millions of hands of PLO8/O8 etc on this and other sites. The hands you mention are not "normal"-they are no more (and no less) likely than lots of other hands. Guess what? I've seen lots of different flops. All exactly in line with what anyone would expect. Including thousands of exactly the sort of flops you claim never to have seen.
SB&G is a small-ish part of the Flutter Group. Sky Poker is a tiny part of SB&G-probably about 1%. PLO8 is a tiny part of Sky Poker. Almost certainly considerably less than 1%. Of the sites that offer PLO8, Sky has one of the lowest PLO8 offerings. Sky Poker has Software that barely functions, as @hhyftrftdr rightly pointed out. Even if it wanted to (and it would need to be totally mad to do so), it lacks the capability.
There has been a range of posters on this thread. Some from recreational players-who are the lifeblood of this (and every) site. And, from at least 3 people (off the top of my head, without going through this thread) who have played a lot of poker. And have made significant money.
My experience is very different to yours.
You have not played HU hi lo. Well why comment then? My point is ALL the variations, brands of poker, MTT, Razz, different table sizes whatever.... have things in place to stop bad players losing more than they should.
That is one of the things in place for omaha hi lo heads up.
You do see these hands in MTT i agree. What i notice in MTT hi lo, is there is a huge amount of hi only flops, even when 5/6 have folded round, suggesting the deck is rich in low cards. Especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in a deck, still huge amount of hi flops with no-one in the pot. Poor players have been given an edge there.
This is my experience... my vast experience.
Its not about 'we are not going to touch this game, as there is not enough in it for us'... any edge a gambling house can gain is maximising its potential, same as any company that exists do.
Again its not about the money that can be made from hi lo in fees, its about retaining customers. If players lose alot of money, they leave. Some, as you know are stopped from depositing more, and The GC are hot on this, as they have with 888 recently. It is not good business to have BIG losing players on many fronts, regardless of what they are playing. A player could win 10 £2 hold em HU on the bounce... and on a saturday night pissd up decide to play omaha hi lo for £30... hes then a losing player and a risk to lose his custom.
Absolutely every site has these things in place now, whereas pre black friday it was just the greedy Pokerstars. I think if you are claiming Sky dont have the funds or capability, im suprised you are backing the deck as being state of the art and being able to compare with Pokerstars in the first place,
So pre Black Friday nobody with the exception of Stars was dodgy ?
Not Full Tilt, Pokah, Ladbrokes, Ultimate, Pacific, PKR, Midnight, Party, 888, or any of the other sites I might have played on and forgotten over the years.
As a losing player on Stars, Sky, Party and 888 since Black Friday why has none of this software helped me to not have to reload?
Balance is zero right now actually so reloading tomorrow.
Might come and search you out on the HU Hi/Lo PLO tables just to see if your theory holds water. I will wear a wetsuit though as I presume it will leak like a submarine with a screen door.
@TheWaddy How do you feel the RNG effects your win rates? Do you win more because you understand how it works or do you win less because it benefits the weaker players?
Who does it favour in a family pot? Would it be the losing player with a strong hand? In which case the best hand would win? Or the better player with connectors, which would be the worst hand pre-flop. Is it decided on the player, or the hand? If it is decided on the hand rather the player, does a good player win more playing connectors. If it is decided on the player, and the worst hands, what if they fold, what happens then?
I dont know why i have never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop, even though all i play is hi lo heads up and hundreds of thousands of hands, which is a problem for me, even if we are keeping away from unusual amounts of long odds coming in, which you will never agree with.
The ins and outs of the technical side of how this is arrived at, that is not my field and not something i feel i need to explain, but have had a guess at. The fact that i have never seen a hand, which is the bread and butter of hi lo players, is what i know.
Something that has never happened, a normal flop, although i see runner runner for Quads etc. I mean, you got to acknowledge that is very odd if nothing else.
You have "never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop"? "Something that has never happened, a normal flop"?
I don't play HU PLO8. But I have played millions of hands of PLO8/O8 etc on this and other sites. The hands you mention are not "normal"-they are no more (and no less) likely than lots of other hands. Guess what? I've seen lots of different flops. All exactly in line with what anyone would expect. Including thousands of exactly the sort of flops you claim never to have seen.
SB&G is a small-ish part of the Flutter Group. Sky Poker is a tiny part of SB&G-probably about 1%. PLO8 is a tiny part of Sky Poker. Almost certainly considerably less than 1%. Of the sites that offer PLO8, Sky has one of the lowest PLO8 offerings. Sky Poker has Software that barely functions, as @hhyftrftdr rightly pointed out. Even if it wanted to (and it would need to be totally mad to do so), it lacks the capability.
There has been a range of posters on this thread. Some from recreational players-who are the lifeblood of this (and every) site. And, from at least 3 people (off the top of my head, without going through this thread) who have played a lot of poker. And have made significant money.
My experience is very different to yours.
You have not played HU hi lo. Well why comment then? My point is ALL the variations, brands of poker, MTT, Razz, different table sizes whatever.... have things in place to stop bad players losing more than they should.
That is one of the things in place for omaha hi lo heads up.
You do see these hands in MTT i agree. What i notice in MTT hi lo, is there is a huge amount of hi only flops, even when 5/6 have folded round, suggesting the deck is rich in low cards. Especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in a deck, still huge amount of hi flops with no-one in the pot. Poor players have been given an edge there.
This is my experience... my vast experience.
Its not about 'we are not going to touch this game, as there is not enough in it for us'... any edge a gambling house can gain is maximising its potential, same as any company that exists do.
Again its not about the money that can be made from hi lo in fees, its about retaining customers. If players lose alot of money, they leave. Some, as you know are stopped from depositing more, and The GC are hot on this, as they have with 888 recently. It is not good business to have BIG losing players on many fronts, regardless of what they are playing. A player could win 10 £2 hold em HU on the bounce... and on a saturday night pissd up decide to play omaha hi lo for £30... hes then a losing player and a risk to lose his custom.
Absolutely every site has these things in place now, whereas pre black friday it was just the greedy Pokerstars. I think if you are claiming Sky dont have the funds or capability, im suprised you are backing the deck as being state of the art and being able to compare with Pokerstars in the first place,
Let's look at this stage by stage.
1. You start with "why comment then?" And then answer your own question. Any "RNG" that does not randomly generate numbers is not an RNG. And poker sites don't have different systems for different types of stakes/games-as you have said yourself
2. If you "see the hands in MTT" it necessarily follows that you see them in all types of PLO8-see point 1
3. There is a huge amount of hi only flops...especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in the deck." Really? Read this, for example:-
Your maths is using the wrong basis. It is not as simple as 32 cards of 8 or lower. At least 3 of the 5 community cards have to be 8 or lower, AND be different numbers. AND then you need to have 2 cards of 8 or lower that are different to at least 3 of them.
The thing good players knew in 2011 was how important scooping was. But games evolve. People routinely overvalue low hands currently. I love getting nutted high and lows. But I take all the pot far more often when there is no low.
4. Your "vast experience". Where? Not on Sky. Define "vast experience". Because I am 1 of several players on this thread who have more than 10x your experience, and 10x your profit.
5. "888". Having previously been fined for safeguarding problem gambler issues, they still were not undertaking any meaningful checks until after people had deposited more than £40,000. And no meaningful money laundering checks.
6. Pre-Black Friday? Stars continued to accept US players for some time after the UIGEA was passed in 2006. For 5 years. Because Black Friday was inevitable for 5 years. While overtaking Party as the leading poker site as a result.
I dont know why i have never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop, even though all i play is hi lo heads up and hundreds of thousands of hands, which is a problem for me, even if we are keeping away from unusual amounts of long odds coming in, which you will never agree with.
The ins and outs of the technical side of how this is arrived at, that is not my field and not something i feel i need to explain, but have had a guess at. The fact that i have never seen a hand, which is the bread and butter of hi lo players, is what i know.
Something that has never happened, a normal flop, although i see runner runner for Quads etc. I mean, you got to acknowledge that is very odd if nothing else.
You have "never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop"? "Something that has never happened, a normal flop"?
I don't play HU PLO8. But I have played millions of hands of PLO8/O8 etc on this and other sites. The hands you mention are not "normal"-they are no more (and no less) likely than lots of other hands. Guess what? I've seen lots of different flops. All exactly in line with what anyone would expect. Including thousands of exactly the sort of flops you claim never to have seen.
SB&G is a small-ish part of the Flutter Group. Sky Poker is a tiny part of SB&G-probably about 1%. PLO8 is a tiny part of Sky Poker. Almost certainly considerably less than 1%. Of the sites that offer PLO8, Sky has one of the lowest PLO8 offerings. Sky Poker has Software that barely functions, as @hhyftrftdr rightly pointed out. Even if it wanted to (and it would need to be totally mad to do so), it lacks the capability.
There has been a range of posters on this thread. Some from recreational players-who are the lifeblood of this (and every) site. And, from at least 3 people (off the top of my head, without going through this thread) who have played a lot of poker. And have made significant money.
My experience is very different to yours.
You have not played HU hi lo. Well why comment then? My point is ALL the variations, brands of poker, MTT, Razz, different table sizes whatever.... have things in place to stop bad players losing more than they should.
That is one of the things in place for omaha hi lo heads up.
You do see these hands in MTT i agree. What i notice in MTT hi lo, is there is a huge amount of hi only flops, even when 5/6 have folded round, suggesting the deck is rich in low cards. Especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in a deck, still huge amount of hi flops with no-one in the pot. Poor players have been given an edge there.
This is my experience... my vast experience.
Its not about 'we are not going to touch this game, as there is not enough in it for us'... any edge a gambling house can gain is maximising its potential, same as any company that exists do.
Again its not about the money that can be made from hi lo in fees, its about retaining customers. If players lose alot of money, they leave. Some, as you know are stopped from depositing more, and The GC are hot on this, as they have with 888 recently. It is not good business to have BIG losing players on many fronts, regardless of what they are playing. A player could win 10 £2 hold em HU on the bounce... and on a saturday night pissd up decide to play omaha hi lo for £30... hes then a losing player and a risk to lose his custom.
Absolutely every site has these things in place now, whereas pre black friday it was just the greedy Pokerstars. I think if you are claiming Sky dont have the funds or capability, im suprised you are backing the deck as being state of the art and being able to compare with Pokerstars in the first place,
Let's look at this stage by stage.
1. You start with "why comment then?" And then answer your own question. Any "RNG" that does not randomly generate numbers is not an RNG. And poker sites don't have different systems for different types of stakes/games-as you have said yourself
2. If you "see the hands in MTT" it necessarily follows that you see them in all types of PLO8-see point 1
3. There is a huge amount of hi only flops...especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in the deck." Really? Read this, for example:-
Your maths is using the wrong basis. It is not as simple as 32 cards of 8 or lower. At least 3 of the 5 community cards have to be 8 or lower, AND be different numbers. AND then you need to have 2 cards of 8 or lower that are different to at least 3 of them.
The thing good players knew in 2011 was how important scooping was. But games evolve. People routinely overvalue low hands currently. I love getting nutted high and lows. But I take all the pot far more often when there is no low.
4. Your "vast experience". Where? Not on Sky. Define "vast experience". Because I am 1 of several players on this thread who have more than 10x your experience, and 10x your profit.
5. "888". Having previously been fined for safeguarding problem gambler issues, they still were not undertaking any meaningful checks until after people had deposited more than £40,000. And no meaningful money laundering checks.
6. Pre-Black Friday? Stars continued to accept US players for some time after the UIGEA was passed in 2006. For 5 years. Because Black Friday was inevitable for 5 years. While overtaking Party as the leading poker site as a result.
You have 10 x my 20yrs online experience? And u say my maths is using the wrong basis! Its all in the thread, im not repeating myself.
the guy thats just lost a huge pot calling off, when obv obv beat and left himself shortstacked... that they automatically win the very next all in preflop, with a hand of 3 of a kind or better...
This has never happened to me. Whenever I have lost a big pot to a bad beat and shoved the remainder of my stack in preflop the next hand in a tilt induced fury, I have invariably lost.
Maybe I am not a bad enough player for the manipulated deck to feel the need to come to my rescue
Noboby seems to read the thread but love to comment. Its not after losing a pot to a bad beat, it was on 888 only and it is Omaha HU only.
I dont know why i have never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop, even though all i play is hi lo heads up and hundreds of thousands of hands, which is a problem for me, even if we are keeping away from unusual amounts of long odds coming in, which you will never agree with.
The ins and outs of the technical side of how this is arrived at, that is not my field and not something i feel i need to explain, but have had a guess at. The fact that i have never seen a hand, which is the bread and butter of hi lo players, is what i know.
Something that has never happened, a normal flop, although i see runner runner for Quads etc. I mean, you got to acknowledge that is very odd if nothing else.
You have "never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop"? "Something that has never happened, a normal flop"?
I don't play HU PLO8. But I have played millions of hands of PLO8/O8 etc on this and other sites. The hands you mention are not "normal"-they are no more (and no less) likely than lots of other hands. Guess what? I've seen lots of different flops. All exactly in line with what anyone would expect. Including thousands of exactly the sort of flops you claim never to have seen.
SB&G is a small-ish part of the Flutter Group. Sky Poker is a tiny part of SB&G-probably about 1%. PLO8 is a tiny part of Sky Poker. Almost certainly considerably less than 1%. Of the sites that offer PLO8, Sky has one of the lowest PLO8 offerings. Sky Poker has Software that barely functions, as @hhyftrftdr rightly pointed out. Even if it wanted to (and it would need to be totally mad to do so), it lacks the capability.
There has been a range of posters on this thread. Some from recreational players-who are the lifeblood of this (and every) site. And, from at least 3 people (off the top of my head, without going through this thread) who have played a lot of poker. And have made significant money.
My experience is very different to yours.
You have not played HU hi lo. Well why comment then? My point is ALL the variations, brands of poker, MTT, Razz, different table sizes whatever.... have things in place to stop bad players losing more than they should.
That is one of the things in place for omaha hi lo heads up.
You do see these hands in MTT i agree. What i notice in MTT hi lo, is there is a huge amount of hi only flops, even when 5/6 have folded round, suggesting the deck is rich in low cards. Especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in a deck, still huge amount of hi flops with no-one in the pot. Poor players have been given an edge there.
This is my experience... my vast experience.
Its not about 'we are not going to touch this game, as there is not enough in it for us'... any edge a gambling house can gain is maximising its potential, same as any company that exists do.
Again its not about the money that can be made from hi lo in fees, its about retaining customers. If players lose alot of money, they leave. Some, as you know are stopped from depositing more, and The GC are hot on this, as they have with 888 recently. It is not good business to have BIG losing players on many fronts, regardless of what they are playing. A player could win 10 £2 hold em HU on the bounce... and on a saturday night pissd up decide to play omaha hi lo for £30... hes then a losing player and a risk to lose his custom.
Absolutely every site has these things in place now, whereas pre black friday it was just the greedy Pokerstars. I think if you are claiming Sky dont have the funds or capability, im suprised you are backing the deck as being state of the art and being able to compare with Pokerstars in the first place,
Let's look at this stage by stage.
1. You start with "why comment then?" And then answer your own question. Any "RNG" that does not randomly generate numbers is not an RNG. And poker sites don't have different systems for different types of stakes/games-as you have said yourself
2. If you "see the hands in MTT" it necessarily follows that you see them in all types of PLO8-see point 1
3. There is a huge amount of hi only flops...especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in the deck." Really? Read this, for example:-
Your maths is using the wrong basis. It is not as simple as 32 cards of 8 or lower. At least 3 of the 5 community cards have to be 8 or lower, AND be different numbers. AND then you need to have 2 cards of 8 or lower that are different to at least 3 of them.
The thing good players knew in 2011 was how important scooping was. But games evolve. People routinely overvalue low hands currently. I love getting nutted high and lows. But I take all the pot far more often when there is no low.
4. Your "vast experience". Where? Not on Sky. Define "vast experience". Because I am 1 of several players on this thread who have more than 10x your experience, and 10x your profit.
5. "888". Having previously been fined for safeguarding problem gambler issues, they still were not undertaking any meaningful checks until after people had deposited more than £40,000. And no meaningful money laundering checks.
6. Pre-Black Friday? Stars continued to accept US players for some time after the UIGEA was passed in 2006. For 5 years. Because Black Friday was inevitable for 5 years. While overtaking Party as the leading poker site as a result.
You have 10 x my 20yrs online experience? And u say my maths is using the wrong basis! Its all in the thread, im not repeating myself.
On sky based on sharkscope you have played 1481 games, Phil has played 28661. This doesn't include cash games and only focuses on sky but that is the point Phil was making. Also, groggy and myself have played more games on sky than that.
@TheWaddy How do you feel the RNG effects your win rates? Do you win more because you understand how it works or do you win less because it benefits the weaker players?
If i could play the players i play.... you have to appreciate £1 HU Omaha hi lo many have joined even in error and never played before, nevermind the terrible players... with a real deck, i think i would find it very very hard to lose many games at all.
The blind structure is slow, you will get players wanting to go mad with JJ on 345 flop, you can pick your spots alot more easily then Hold em and they will be in extreme poor spots when it goes in. They are basically playing hold em within a hi lo game.
The RNG affects my win rate dramatically, i have just learnt to control games better and not bet/raise flops where i would with a real deck. Big pots with cards left to come is not good for my rate, even if they need the turn and river precisely to be two 4's!
Good evening everyone. As Omaha hi lo heads up sng games are almost the only game I play on Sky and according to sharkscope I seem to have played more than 13,000 games on Sky I thought I would add some comments.
I don't have any concerns about the RNG on SKY and I say this as someone that has strong views that theoretically the RNG on a poker site could be open to abuse. I personally feel that all poker sites should be proactively open about the audit of the RNG which is undertaken and publish an audit report which is easily available on every poker companies website to review - much in the way that a listed company will include a detailed statement in their annual report and accounts regarding the audit, its scope, the outcome and who undertook it. However, just because this is not currently done by poker companies does not mean automatically that something untoward is happening - it is more that the regularity and scope of the audit is not very well communicated to the players. To me such a change would provide more knowledge to players and more comfort.
Now on to the games I play on Sky and any suspicious dealing of cards. Well, I don't have any concerns. This would include no favouritism to bad players, good players or those in between in terms of quality of starting hands, flops hitting or missing your hand and then changes on the turn and river. There are bad beats and there are holds and sometimes you can be on a good run and other times on a bad run when it comes to variance. It can sometimes "feel" that you have to win a plo8 hu game about four or five times but when you come to look at the equity positions afterwards you realise that actually sometimes you have to be patient. I have played games which have been very one-sided in terms of favourable cards both in my favour and not in my favour but that happens sometimes. However, I would expect this over the course of 13,000 games or so. I should also add I watch a lot of head up plo8 games as well - always a good use of time to understand how players play in a small pool of players. When watching other players play and with the advantage of no emotional involvement in the game I have never seen anything untoward happen. Waddy, I should also advise that includes watching some of your games too.
Anyway just my views and opinions and as someone that plays a lot of the games in question I thought I would add my impression (albeit not evidence).
If anyone else wanted to verify whether or not Waddy's impression of PLO8 games or my impression (or indeed anyone else's impression) is correct, please come along to the PLO8 heads up lobby for a game. We could always do with increasing the player pool and above all it is a very enjoyable game to play.
Good evening everyone. As Omaha hi lo heads up sng games are almost the only game I play on Sky and according to sharkscope I seem to have played more than 13,000 games on Sky I thought I would add some comments.
I don't have any concerns about the RNG on SKY and I say this as someone that has strong views that theoretically the RNG on a poker site could be open to abuse. I personally feel that all poker sites should be proactively open about the audit of the RNG which is undertaken and publish an audit report which is easily available on every poker companies website to review - much in the way that a listed company will include a detailed statement in their annual report and accounts regarding the audit, its scope, the outcome and who undertook it. However, just because this is not currently done by poker companies does not mean automatically that something untoward is happening - it is more that the regularity and scope of the audit is not very well communicated to the players. To me such a change would provide more knowledge to players and more comfort.
Now on to the games I play on Sky and any suspicious dealing of cards. Well, I don't have any concerns. This would include no favouritism to bad players, good players or those in between in terms of quality of starting hands, flops hitting or missing your hand and then changes on the turn and river. There are bad beats and there are holds and sometimes you can be on a good run and other times on a bad run when it comes to variance. It can sometimes "feel" that you have to win a plo8 hu game about four or five times but when you come to look at the equity positions afterwards you realise that actually sometimes you have to be patient. I have played games which have been very one-sided in terms of favourable cards both in my favour and not in my favour but that happens sometimes. However, I would expect this over the course of 13,000 games or so. I should also add I watch a lot of head up plo8 games as well - always a good use of time to understand how players play in a small pool of players. When watching other players play and with the advantage of no emotional involvement in the game I have never seen anything untoward happen. Waddy, I should also advise that includes watching some of your games too.
Anyway just my views and opinions and as someone that plays a lot of the games in question I thought I would add my impression (albeit not evidence).
If anyone else wanted to verify whether or not Waddy's impression of PLO8 games or my impression (or indeed anyone else's impression) is correct, please come along to the PLO8 heads up lobby for a game. We could always do with increasing the player pool and above all it is a very enjoyable game to play.
i cant speak for omaha as you get more whole cards than you do texas hold-em and this thread is only what i play hold-em
Comments
Just to clarify what you are claiming, and please do correct me if I'm wrong.
You are saying that Sky use an RNG that isn't always random.
The deck is stacked to favour a bad player, however not too stacked so that good players also can't sometimes win.
If a good player comes up against another good player, then the RNG is sophisticated enough to realise pretty quickly that it doesn't need to get involved in any shady stuff and sort of reverts back to a 'normal' RNG for that game?
The deck can recognise and work out the potential ROI of a player and adjust itself accordingly; good ROI vs bad ROI and the deck will favour the bad ROI. But good ROI vs good ROI then the deck takes a back seat and relaxes?
All this on a poker site where you can't/couldn't type 'Iraq' in the chatbox without it being **** out.
Can't do antes.
Can't do auto add-ons.
Can't do MTT tokens properly.
Can't even deal you into the first hands of the FT sometimes.
Ok.
I dont know why i have never seen a hi lo big wrap draw on the flop, even though all i play is hi lo heads up and hundreds of thousands of hands, which is a problem for me, even if we are keeping away from unusual amounts of long odds coming in, which you will never agree with.
The ins and outs of the technical side of how this is arrived at, that is not my field and not something i feel i need to explain, but have had a guess at. The fact that i have never seen a hand, which is the bread and butter of hi lo players, is what i know.
Something that has never happened, a normal flop, although i see runner runner for Quads etc. I mean, you got to acknowledge that is very odd if nothing else.
"Something that has never happened, a normal flop"?
I don't play HU PLO8. But I have played millions of hands of PLO8/O8 etc on this and other sites. The hands you mention are not "normal"-they are no more (and no less) likely than lots of other hands. Guess what? I've seen lots of different flops. All exactly in line with what anyone would expect. Including thousands of exactly the sort of flops you claim never to have seen.
SB&G is a small-ish part of the Flutter Group.
Sky Poker is a tiny part of SB&G-probably about 1%.
PLO8 is a tiny part of Sky Poker. Almost certainly considerably less than 1%. Of the sites that offer PLO8, Sky has one of the lowest PLO8 offerings.
Sky Poker has Software that barely functions, as @hhyftrftdr rightly pointed out. Even if it wanted to (and it would need to be totally mad to do so), it lacks the capability.
There has been a range of posters on this thread. Some from recreational players-who are the lifeblood of this (and every) site. And, from at least 3 people (off the top of my head, without going through this thread) who have played a lot of poker. And have made significant money.
My experience is very different to yours.
Maybe I am not a bad enough player for the manipulated deck to feel the need to come to my rescue
That is one of the things in place for omaha hi lo heads up.
You do see these hands in MTT i agree. What i notice in MTT hi lo, is there is a huge amount of hi only flops, even when 5/6 have folded round, suggesting the deck is rich in low cards. Especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in a deck, still huge amount of hi flops with no-one in the pot. Poor players have been given an edge there.
This is my experience... my vast experience.
Its not about 'we are not going to touch this game, as there is not enough in it for us'... any edge a gambling house can gain is maximising its potential, same as any company that exists do.
Again its not about the money that can be made from hi lo in fees, its about retaining customers. If players lose alot of money, they leave. Some, as you know are stopped from depositing more, and The GC are hot on this, as they have with 888 recently. It is not good business to have BIG losing players on many fronts, regardless of what they are playing. A player could win 10 £2 hold em HU on the bounce... and on a saturday night pissd up decide to play omaha hi lo for £30... hes then a losing player and a risk to lose his custom.
Absolutely every site has these things in place now, whereas pre black friday it was just the greedy Pokerstars. I think if you are claiming Sky dont have the funds or capability, im suprised you are backing the deck as being state of the art and being able to compare with Pokerstars in the first place,
Not Full Tilt, Pokah, Ladbrokes, Ultimate, Pacific, PKR, Midnight, Party, 888, or any of the other sites I might have played on and forgotten over the years.
As a losing player on Stars, Sky, Party and 888 since Black Friday why has none of this software helped me to not have to reload?
Balance is zero right now actually so reloading tomorrow.
Might come and search you out on the HU Hi/Lo PLO tables just to see if your theory holds water. I will wear a wetsuit though as I presume it will leak like a submarine with a screen door.
Would it be the losing player with a strong hand?
In which case the best hand would win?
Or the better player with connectors, which would be the worst hand pre-flop.
Is it decided on the player, or the hand?
If it is decided on the hand rather the player, does a good player win more playing connectors.
If it is decided on the player, and the worst hands, what if they fold, what happens then?
1. You start with "why comment then?" And then answer your own question. Any "RNG" that does not randomly generate numbers is not an RNG. And poker sites don't have different systems for different types of stakes/games-as you have said yourself
2. If you "see the hands in MTT" it necessarily follows that you see them in all types of PLO8-see point 1
3. There is a huge amount of hi only flops...especially as there are more cards of 8 or lower in the deck." Really? Read this, for example:-
https://www.omahaplanet.com/omaha-hi-lo-8b/strategy/omaha-hi-lo-probability-math-how-often-will-you-make-a-low/
Your maths is using the wrong basis. It is not as simple as 32 cards of 8 or lower. At least 3 of the 5 community cards have to be 8 or lower, AND be different numbers. AND then you need to have 2 cards of 8 or lower that are different to at least 3 of them.
The thing good players knew in 2011 was how important scooping was. But games evolve. People routinely overvalue low hands currently. I love getting nutted high and lows. But I take all the pot far more often when there is no low.
4. Your "vast experience". Where? Not on Sky. Define "vast experience". Because I am 1 of several players on this thread who have more than 10x your experience, and 10x your profit.
5. "888". Having previously been fined for safeguarding problem gambler issues, they still were not undertaking any meaningful checks until after people had deposited more than £40,000. And no meaningful money laundering checks.
6. Pre-Black Friday? Stars continued to accept US players for some time after the UIGEA was passed in 2006. For 5 years. Because Black Friday was inevitable for 5 years. While overtaking Party as the leading poker site as a result.
The blind structure is slow, you will get players wanting to go mad with JJ on 345 flop, you can pick your spots alot more easily then Hold em and they will be in extreme poor spots when it goes in. They are basically playing hold em within a hi lo game.
The RNG affects my win rate dramatically, i have just learnt to control games better and not bet/raise flops where i would with a real deck. Big pots with cards left to come is not good for my rate, even if they need the turn and river precisely to be two 4's!
I don't have any concerns about the RNG on SKY and I say this as someone that has strong views that theoretically the RNG on a poker site could be open to abuse. I personally feel that all poker sites should be proactively open about the audit of the RNG which is undertaken and publish an audit report which is easily available on every poker companies website to review - much in the way that a listed company will include a detailed statement in their annual report and accounts regarding the audit, its scope, the outcome and who undertook it. However, just because this is not currently done by poker companies does not mean automatically that something untoward is happening - it is more that the regularity and scope of the audit is not very well communicated to the players. To me such a change would provide more knowledge to players and more comfort.
Now on to the games I play on Sky and any suspicious dealing of cards. Well, I don't have any concerns. This would include no favouritism to bad players, good players or those in between in terms of quality of starting hands, flops hitting or missing your hand and then changes on the turn and river. There are bad beats and there are holds and sometimes you can be on a good run and other times on a bad run when it comes to variance. It can sometimes "feel" that you have to win a plo8 hu game about four or five times but when you come to look at the equity positions afterwards you realise that actually sometimes you have to be patient. I have played games which have been very one-sided in terms of favourable cards both in my favour and not in my favour but that happens sometimes. However, I would expect this over the course of 13,000 games or so. I should also add I watch a lot of head up plo8 games as well - always a good use of time to understand how players play in a small pool of players. When watching other players play and with the advantage of no emotional involvement in the game I have never seen anything untoward happen. Waddy, I should also advise that includes watching some of your games too.
Anyway just my views and opinions and as someone that plays a lot of the games in question I thought I would add my impression (albeit not evidence).
If anyone else wanted to verify whether or not Waddy's impression of PLO8 games or my impression (or indeed anyone else's impression) is correct, please come along to the PLO8 heads up lobby for a game. We could always do with increasing the player pool and above all it is a very enjoyable game to play.