Rwanda.

HAYSIE

Essexphil

This Government does many disgraceful things.

This is very near the top of that list. Shameful.

Essexphil

Just to give some quick examples:-

1. Life expectancy is low
2. Major communicable diseases prevalent-malaria, TB, HIV
3. Healthcare poor-very few doctors
4. Education poor-30% of adults are illiterate
5. A crowded country already. Most densely populated country in Africa, with a density double that of the UK

HAYSIE

Essexphil said:

Just to give some quick examples:-

1. Life expectancy is low
2. Major communicable diseases prevalent-malaria, TB, HIV
3. Healthcare poor-very few doctors
4. Education poor-30% of adults are illiterate
5. A crowded country already. Most densely populated country in Africa, with a density double that of the UK

The bloke from Migrant Watch has been on to say what a great idea it is.
The Welsh Secretary has been on to defend it, despite seemingly knowing little of the detail of the plan.
Although he was full of praise about improvements in Rwanda, including their record on human rights.

It appears that the plan will only apply to adult males.
The smuggling gangs are likely to focus on women and children, while adult males look for alternative means.
The plan is therefore not guaranteed to reduce numbers.

The obvious way to reduce the numbers is by introducing realistic legal routes, take our fair share, and return the rest.

Essexphil

The more I read, the more ridiculous this sounds. If someone wishes to live in this country. Not just economic migrants, a lot of displaced people via war

So-at present, we

1. Refuse all applications unless they physically get to the UK;
2. Try and prevent these people getting to the UK;
3. Watch various of them die using illegal methods (as they are the only ones allowed);
4. If they get here, use the Legal system to process their applications-where of course, most fail

The brilliant new system is:-

1. Repeat steps 1-3 above
2. If they get here, automatically deny entry, forcibly repatriate them to Rwanda
3. Force them, whether they like it or not, to process them as to whether they wish to live in Rwanda
4. Only apply this to men. Process women and children as before, to ensure people smugglers can still make a living

It does sound like a plan.

In fact, quite a lot like a plan in 1930s Germany.

HAYSIE

Essexphil said:

The more I read, the more ridiculous this sounds. If someone wishes to live in this country. Not just economic migrants, a lot of displaced people via war

So-at present, we

1. Refuse all applications unless they physically get to the UK;
2. Try and prevent these people getting to the UK;
3. Watch various of them die using illegal methods (as they are the only ones allowed);
4. If they get here, use the Legal system to process their applications-where of course, most fail

The brilliant new system is:-

1. Repeat steps 1-3 above
2. If they get here, automatically deny entry, forcibly repatriate them to Rwanda
3. Force them, whether they like it or not, to process them as to whether they wish to live in Rwanda
4. Only apply this to men. Process women and children as before, to ensure people smugglers can still make a living

It does sound like a plan.

In fact, quite a lot like a plan in 1930s Germany.

Just another ridiculous plan, without any merit at all.

Tikay10

There is a plan though. Effectively, it's a way of deterring those why try to reach safety in the UK, by saying "if you get here, we'll send you to Rwanda".

HAYSIE

Tikay10 said:

There is a plan though. Effectively, it's a way of deterring those why try to reach safety in the UK, by saying "if you get here, we'll send you to Rwanda".

Unless you are a woman, or a child.

Essexphil

HAYSIE said:

Tikay10 said:

There is a plan though. Effectively, it's a way of deterring those why try to reach safety in the UK, by saying "if you get here, we'll send you to Rwanda".

Unless you are a woman, or a child.

Or, of course, if you come from a First World country.

If you fly in, start a course in the UK, melt into the background and stay illegally? Going to be forcibly repatriated to Rwanda?

Of course not. This rule will only apply to poor people from poor countries.

TheEdge949

I never thought I'd see the day when members of the British Government would become State sanctioned and supported people traffickers.

"Boris the bullet dodger".
"Priti the People Smuggler"
"Rishi the Bank"

They sound like a line from a Guy Ritchie film.

kapowblamz

You could argue that Rwanda is the most progressive African nation with the fastest growing economy in Africa and probably the best human rights record in recent African history. They are building sky scrapers left right and center over there. They will put these migrants to work in likely very good conditions and there is almost no doubt life will be better for them there than from where they came and potentially better and more suitable for them than the UK.

I'm not saying I agree with the fundamentals of what's happening here but it is almost certainly no atrocity.

Essexphil

kapowblamz said:

You could argue that Rwanda is the most progressive African nation with the fastest growing economy in Africa and probably the best human rights record in recent African history. They are building sky scrapers left right and center over there. They will put these migrants to work in likely very good conditions and there is almost no doubt life will be better for them there than from where they came and potentially better and more suitable for them than the UK.

I'm not saying I agree with the fundamentals of what's happening here but it is almost certainly no atrocity.

You could argue it. But most of the facts do not support that.

The starting point is usually the HDI-the Human Development Index.

The key drivers for the Index are:-Life Expectancy, Education, and Standard of Living.

Countries are broadly placed in 4 categories. Of the 190-odd countries, the UK ranks in the top tier-very high-13th. Rwanda? Bottom tier. 160th.

Improvements? Undoubtedly. So, for example life expectancy is now 69. Less than 30 years ago, genocide and disease meant life expectancy was 26.2.

GDP shows a similar picture. Enormous improvements. From a terrible base. GDP per capita has now climbed so that only 20 Rwandans provide the same resources as 1 in the UK. Although on nominal GDP it is 50-1.

Probably the best human rights record? No. Although the most improved-simply because it used to be the worst.

Fastest growing economy? Only if you use as the comparator the 1990s genocides. It remains one of the poorer countries in Africa, although it is further from the bottom.

All depends what you define as an atrocity. How many Americans, Japanese, Chinese, Europeans are going to be forcibly transported to Rwanda?

kapowblamz

The reason it's all going up is more to do with the decisions being made. They are making the right ones. Rwanda is practically a model on how to deal with corruption, particularly of the type prevalent in Africa. It's some achievement what they've done over there.

The investment is all funneled into main hubs and that is what causes the HDI etc problems and inequality, but I would reckon these migrants will be at least very close to these hubs. I am optimistic because a spotlight will be shining on the situation and the Rwandan govt are far from stupid barbarians. They will have a good plan because, so far, they always seem to.

Essexphil

kapowblamz said:

The reason it's all going up is more to do with the decisions being made. They are making the right ones. Rwanda is practically a model on how to deal with corruption, particularly of the type prevalent in Africa. It's some achievement what they've done over there.

The investment is all funneled into main hubs and that is what causes the HDI etc problems and inequality, but I would reckon these migrants will be at least very close to these hubs. I am optimistic because a spotlight will be shining on the situation and the Rwandan govt are far from stupid barbarians. They will have a good plan because, so far, they always seem to.

It is going up. Considerable improvements are being made in Rwanda. As an example, in some industries people must be paid at least 50 pence per day. In construction, can sometimes be as high as £5 per day.

https://www.minimum-wage.org/international/rwanda

The HDI problems are simply because of where it is. The disease. The lack of healthcare, and doctors. The country was 1 of the worst, if not the worst, country in the World. Now? Probably average for sub-Saharan Africa. Which is a vast improvement. But still miles behind the poorest European country.

I can see plenty of benefits to this scheme for Rwanda. Fact remains that the UK are proposing to become 1 of the biggest people traffickers in the World. On a scale which your average Russian mobster cannot help but be inspired by.

We are proposing to create the biggest Labour Camp since Germany in the 1930s.

Do I blame Rwanda for that? No. The UK.

If Rwanda is such a great place to live, we would be offering to pay for passage to Rwanda, and give people the choice to go there. Not herd them like cattle, and forcibly not repatriate them, but transfer them to a foreign concentration camp.

I'm not saying the Rwandan Government are barbarians. I am saying we are.

kapowblamz

Afaik the immigrants would be a net positive for our economy if we kept them. The only reason we don't let them stay are because of quotas in place that are only there because of a xenophobic electorate and a government that obviously wants to stay in power.

I think this Rwanda decision is likely just a better option than any other options.

Essexphil

kapowblamz said:

Afaik the immigrants would be a net positive for our economy if we kept them. The only reason we don't let them stay are because of quotas in place that are only there because of a xenophobic electorate and a government that obviously wants to stay in power.

I think this Rwanda decision is likely just a better option than any other options.

With regard to your first paragraph, I really wish what you say wasn't true. But it is. Would be nice if we actually introduced that points system the Brexiteers promised us years ago.

So-which ones have skills in jobs we can't fill? Which speak fluent English? Which have family members in the UK who can help?

The "better option"? Only 3 countries in the World currently do this. And 1 of them has IMO a better option.

Israel gives this sort of illegal immigrant a choice. Voluntarily finding own way back home. Prison and then repatriation. Or a 1-way ticket to Rwanda to apply there, and $3,500 to help them settle in. The most important word in that? Choice.

VespaPX

Are there elections coming up soon?

All smoke & mirrors, they won't be sending anyone to Rwanda.

Essexphil

VespaPX said:

Are there elections coming up soon?

All smoke & mirrors, they won't be sending anyone to Rwanda.

I'm sure that is at least partly true.

But if we've promised to give Rwanda £120 million (for a trial!), that pays for a lot of smoke. Then there is the £50mill to the Navy.

Be cheaper to send these poor people to Eton

VespaPX

I wonder if the money for the processing centres will go to the Chinese as they seem to be doing a lot of the building works.

kapowblamz

VespaPX said:

I wonder if the money for the processing centres will go to the Chinese as they seem to be doing a lot of the building works.

The Chinese have built a lot of the building and road infrastructure in East Africa and it's been that way for some time. It's the best option they have everything considered.

HAYSIE

Asylum seekers will have ‘one-way ticket’ to Rwanda and will not get refugee status in the UK




https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/asylum-seekers-will-have-one-way-ticket-to-rwanda-and-will-not-get-refugee-status-in-the-uk/ar-AAWdJsZ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=c6a717ea73364be6897cedc323dbe158