In Response to Re: was he right to call? : Ok you need to phrase your posts better. You should not be posting in the poker clinic if you are going to give bad advice to players wanting to improve. It's not about playing ABC poker it's just common sense. If someone 3 bets half his stack he is committed to the hand and his range imo is TT-AA and AQ/AK. So by calling with 9 10 you are mostly up against hands that completely crush you, or AK if you're lucky. So you call and the flop is T 8 X, you lose most of the time and the rare chance you are ahead our man still has overcards to hit. You call and the flop is T K X and you lose most of the time. You call and the flop is J 8 X and you lose most of the time. Or you call and completely brick (2/3 of the time) and you lose 1400 chips. I honestly can't see how you can say this is a good call. Posted by pryce6
I could not agree with you more Pryce. you were right IMO to say this is a fish thinking process in your first reply. I played a hand at 50/1 cash tonight that was very similar to the one posted.
Cut off raises to £4 with 57 off, I make it £12 with AK on the button he calls oop with only £34 behind, flop 456, he checks I put him all in, he calls, I hit K on the river. With £25 in the pot and with him having only £34 behind I care little what he holds, if he check folds great, if he has something i've likely got two overs to hit even on this flop.
As you said, the range he should be putting me on is TT-AA, AK/AQ and 57o is not a hand you want v this range oop in a 3 bet pot with not much more than a pot size bet behind. The flop was about as good as he could expect, I didn't hold an over pair and he still got stacked for £46, do these guys hate money? Yes I could be raising here with any two but playing weak holdings oop and calling 3 bets is just burning money unless you are one **** of a player, however a good player wont be doing this with so little money behind? What is villain doing two thirds of the time when they miss the flop, check calling the shove with 7 high or folding after putting 25% of their stack in pf, neither are great options are they.
I have no idea why anyone would disagree with you when you make so much sense with your post.
talon thankyou for explaining my point in a better way Lol raise there are no flaws in my play either!! Technically i would of won the pot so there you go. You all must have the same game!1 there is no right or wrong way but the call in my opinion is right. And you point out the clinic is to help others... so should we all have the same opinion???? My way or his way either way i can understand i just prefer my move in the MTT BH format end of simple. Posted by Batkin88
No, technically you would have won the pot posted, where he held AK and missed turn and river. If he held TT-AA your beat. WHY would you want to guess for your tournament life here, its not neccesary, just fold the 9T or fold to the rr, there are better spots.
stien thanks for the comments and all but this thread is 64 posts long i have been asked that question about three times its just a different way of playing the game and i wouldnt put someone on a pocket pair just becaus they re raise pre
Are the pot odds being stated not incorrect. its not 800 to win 3100. 3100 includes the 800 the op has not invested yet. its actually risking a further 800 to win 2300. so just under 1:3 not 1:4. Very loose call imo but im new what do i know lol.
In Response to Re: was he right to call? : No, technically you would have won the pot posted, where he held AK and missed turn and river. If he held TT-AA your beat. WHY would you want to guess for your tournament life here, its not neccesary, just fold the 9T or fold to the rr, there are better spots. Posted by stien
FWIW it's not for the tournament life of the caller, and i think i'm right in saying this is also a bounty hunter. Both things can sway the logic of the caller. In my previous posts i'm not stating that i would play it this way, merely that i can see why the call was made, OP should have pushed pre on that we can all agree. The call happens because it is a further 800 into the 2300 when the caller already has 600 invested. As the caller has almost £5k behind and will not be out that is the reason we end up with the outdraw on the flop. I think the call is flawed but i would disagree with pryce that on sky this raise is always a monster (i've seen it wit hsome funny holdings even when pot commiting on here). It's awful play by both in reality but i can see why it occured
I agree from the position of the caller i wouldn't have bothered raising 9 10, i would of just folded. However i can see why this pot occured once our villain has raised and the price to see the flop isn't that mathmatically bad, that doesn't mean i think it's great play. So why do you bother what?
Taking into account Bounty Hunter mentality (a format i dislike as it's a very loose and fast game) you will see a ton of these calls in every tourny so be prepared for it. As it's the OP looking for comment (of which he now has plenty) then the only "Advice" to be given is shove, your hands not made and you want to pick up the pot.
fwiw i think most of what pryce says is theoretically right, however saying 'what i said is right, you shouldn't play it any other way' is nonsense, people can play any situation how they want.
For example i read that Browndogg shoved with a flopped full house or summin at Blackpool and it worked a treat, now thats not ABC.
'Aw what a nice thread fwiw i think most of what pryce says is theoretically right, however saying 'what i said is right, you shouldn't play it any other way' is nonsense, people can play any situation how they want. For example i read that Browndogg shoved with a flopped full house or summin at Blackpool and it worked a treat, now thats not ABC. Posted by christiann
That is a totally different situation where the players were playing for more than a few bb's in a limped heads up pot. The hand in this thread is entirely different and so straight forward.
Honestly if you don't fold then you are losing money/chips over time. Why would there be another way to play the hand when a fold is +ev and a call is -ev? Work it out.
Btw Aces I posted on this thread because I see these kind of calls every day. Players on Sky make these calls and that is why it is easy to win money on here. This is the poker clinic, you shouldn't be 'understanding' of bad plays.
Saying 'well i can see why he called bcos its only another 800 chips and he can take a bounty' is exactly how most players would think. Notice how a lot of good players have said fold and the fish have said call.
This is exactly the situation that defines a player who wins regularly and someone who loses. To be able to work out a range and fold shows an actual thought process instead of "oooo its only another 800 chips who cares what his cards are, I call! Ooo top pairs yesss, oh he has kings "
Bounty hunter, tourny play, no wonder the term donkument gets used.
Lets assume the 3 better has two cards, he's not even looked at them and just straight out 3 bet you, you call oop with 9T suited and you miss the flop which you will do 2/3 of the time, now what, you check, he shoves and he's still not looked at his cards, you? Your holding T high, its not great against any two cards is it. So you've just lost 1,400 chips with 9To if you finally realise your mistakes and fold. You had 5,000 now you have 3,600 great play.
As played the thought process if there was one went something like
I'm bored I'll raise 9To UTG
*@** I got 3 bet, I hope he has AK, yea he'll have AK, I could flop a 9 or a T, I'll call it could even come 9T9, last week I saw a 678 flop, yea I'll call
On the flop, wow I hit, I'll check and see what he does, he's shoved, I really hope he has AK, yea he's got AK – that's the problem he's hit and he still has no idea if he's good or not, he's just gambling.
At its simplest point poker is a range war yours verses his, if you get in pots with a weaker range v your opponents range you will lose more often than not and if you get in 3 bet pots oop with a weak range v a stronger range thats pot committed you will lose even more often. Its not like you can outplay him, he's 3 bet so the stacks are shallower, he's 3 bet so he can get his stack in quicker post flop, in short he's 3 bet for a reason, the reason.......he has a big hand, bigger than 9To.
If people are 3 betting here with rubbish they are plainly stupid, 9T raised UTG so what's his (likely) range, yet he still got 3 bet and the 3 better looks committed to the pot, he's not folding on many flops. Why didn't the original raiser shove? Because he thought he was almost certainly behind and hoped to get lucky by calling, the fact he is very likely to be up against a premium pair appears irrelevant because its a bounty hunter and people have seen players 3 bet with rubbish, do most of us really think the OP has rubbish here?
Playing to get lucky is bad, I play only one tourney a week and that's live, but I see plenty of this call and hope garbage, implied odds, its only half my stack are excuses to luck your way to a tourney win because you lack the skills to play properly. If you put enough hands into pokerstove you can justify calling the 3 bet, but in all likelihood you need to hit a 9 or T to be ahead of AK/AQ and then dodge the turn and river, or two pair/straight to be ahead of JJ-AA, how likely is that?
The worst part of this thread is that this is a poker clinic, I thank the poker gods its not a health clinic.
Btw Aces I posted on this thread because I see these kind of calls every day. Players on Sky make these calls and that is why it is easy to win money on here. This is the poker clinic, you shouldn't be 'understanding' of bad plays. Saying 'well i can see why he called bcos its only another 800 chips and he can take a bounty' is exactly how most players would think. Notice how a lot of good players have said fold and the fish have said call. This is exactly the situation that defines a player who wins regularly and someone who loses. To be able to work out a range and fold shows an actual thought process instead of "oooo its only another 800 chips who cares what his cards are, I call! Ooo top pairs yesss, oh he has kings " Posted by pryce6
My posts were explanations as to why it would happen,For me understanding why gets you halfway to counter-acting but if the reason you end up in a situation is not important to your thoughts then we can agree to disagree. as for "Notice how a lot of good players have said fold" i never said it was a good call did I???? to be honest if the 9-10 should have called or not is irrelevant, HE DID!, therefore understanding why and making a better move next time so that you have some fold equity is the only thing in this thread that will make any difference to the OP, every thing else is an argument for the sake of it
In Response to Re: was he right to call? : My posts were explanations as to why it would happen,For me understanding why gets you halfway to counter-acting but if the reason you end up in a situation is not important to your thoughts then we can agree to disagree. as for "Notice how a lot of good players have said fold" i never said it was a good call did I???? to be honest if the 9-10 should have called or not is irrelevant, HE DID!, therefore understanding why and making a better move next time so that you have some fold equity is the only thing in this thread that will make any difference to the OP, every thing else is an argument for the sake of it Posted by ACESOVER8s
Hence why we said fold. The reason I posted is because I saw **** going up that isn't helping players improve. Hopefully people looking to improve will read and understand that calling is a bad move and that's all that matters.
Bounty hunter, tourny play, no wonder the term donkument gets used. Lets assume the 3 better has two cards, he's not even looked at them and just straight out 3 bet you, you call oop with 9T suited and you miss the flop which you will do 2/3 of the time, now what, you check, he shoves and he's still not looked at his cards, you? Your holding T high, its not great against any two cards is it. So you've just lost 1,400 chips with 9To if you finally realise your mistakes and fold. You had 5,000 now you have 3,600 great play. As played the thought process if there was one went something like I'm bored I'll raise 9To UTG *@** I got 3 bet, I hope he has AK, yea he'll have AK, I could flop a 9 or a T, I'll call it could even come 9T9, last week I saw a 678 flop, yea I'll call On the flop, wow I hit, I'll check and see what he does, he's shoved, I really hope he has AK, yea he's got AK – that's the problem he's hit and he still has no idea if he's good or not, he's just gambling. At its simplest point poker is a range war yours verses his, if you get in pots with a weaker range v your opponents range you will lose more often than not and if you get in 3 bet pots oop with a weak range v a stronger range thats pot committed you will lose even more often. Its not like you can outplay him, he's 3 bet so the stacks are shallower, he's 3 bet so he can get his stack in quicker post flop, in short he's 3 bet for a reason, the reason.......he has a big hand, bigger than 9To. If people are 3 betting here with rubbish they are plainly stupid, 9T raised UTG so what's his (likely) range, yet he still got 3 bet and the 3 better looks committed to the pot, he's not folding on many flops. Why didn't the original raiser shove? Because he thought he was almost certainly behind and hoped to get lucky by calling, the fact he is very likely to be up against a premium pair appears irrelevant because its a bounty hunter and people have seen players 3 bet with rubbish, do most of us really think the OP has rubbish here? Playing to get lucky is bad, I play only one tourney a week and that's live, but I see plenty of this call and hope garbage, implied odds, its only half my stack are excuses to luck your way to a tourney win because you lack the skills to play properly. If you put enough hands into pokerstove you can justify calling the 3 bet, but in all likelihood you need to hit a 9 or T to be ahead of AK/AQ and then dodge the turn and river, or two pair/straight to be ahead of JJ-AA, how likely is that? The worst part of this thread is that this is a poker clinic, I thank the poker gods its not a health clinic. Posted by stien
Comments
I could not agree with you more Pryce. you were right IMO to say this is a fish thinking process in your first reply. I played a hand at 50/1 cash tonight that was very similar to the one posted.
Cut off raises to £4 with 57 off, I make it £12 with AK on the button he calls oop with only £34 behind, flop 456, he checks I put him all in, he calls, I hit K on the river. With £25 in the pot and with him having only £34 behind I care little what he holds, if he check folds great, if he has something i've likely got two overs to hit even on this flop.
As you said, the range he should be putting me on is TT-AA, AK/AQ and 57o is not a hand you want v this range oop in a 3 bet pot with not much more than a pot size bet behind. The flop was about as good as he could expect, I didn't hold an over pair and he still got stacked for £46, do these guys hate money? Yes I could be raising here with any two but playing weak holdings oop and calling 3 bets is just burning money unless you are one **** of a player, however a good player wont be doing this with so little money behind? What is villain doing two thirds of the time when they miss the flop, check calling the shove with 7 high or folding after putting 25% of their stack in pf, neither are great options are they.
I have no idea why anyone would disagree with you when you make so much sense with your post.
Same Aces spot on well played sir
I agree from the position of the caller i wouldn't have bothered raising 9 10, i would of just folded. However i can see why this pot occured once our villain has raised and the price to see the flop isn't that mathmatically bad, that doesn't mean i think it's great play. So why do you bother what?
Taking into account Bounty Hunter mentality (a format i dislike as it's a very loose and fast game) you will see a ton of these calls in every tourny so be prepared for it. As it's the OP looking for comment (of which he now has plenty) then the only "Advice" to be given is shove, your hands not made and you want to pick up the pot.
fwiw i think most of what pryce says is theoretically right, however saying 'what i said is right, you shouldn't play it any other way' is nonsense, people can play any situation how they want.
For example i read that Browndogg shoved with a flopped full house or summin at Blackpool and it worked a treat, now thats not ABC.
Bounty hunter, tourny play, no wonder the term donkument gets used.
Lets assume the 3 better has two cards, he's not even looked at them and just straight out 3 bet you, you call oop with 9T suited and you miss the flop which you will do 2/3 of the time, now what, you check, he shoves and he's still not looked at his cards, you? Your holding T high, its not great against any two cards is it. So you've just lost 1,400 chips with 9To if you finally realise your mistakes and fold. You had 5,000 now you have 3,600 great play.
As played the thought process if there was one went something like
I'm bored I'll raise 9To UTG
*@** I got 3 bet, I hope he has AK, yea he'll have AK, I could flop a 9 or a T, I'll call it could even come 9T9, last week I saw a 678 flop, yea I'll call
On the flop, wow I hit, I'll check and see what he does, he's shoved, I really hope he has AK, yea he's got AK – that's the problem he's hit and he still has no idea if he's good or not, he's just gambling.
At its simplest point poker is a range war yours verses his, if you get in pots with a weaker range v your opponents range you will lose more often than not and if you get in 3 bet pots oop with a weak range v a stronger range thats pot committed you will lose even more often. Its not like you can outplay him, he's 3 bet so the stacks are shallower, he's 3 bet so he can get his stack in quicker post flop, in short he's 3 bet for a reason, the reason.......he has a big hand, bigger than 9To.
If people are 3 betting here with rubbish they are plainly stupid, 9T raised UTG so what's his (likely) range, yet he still got 3 bet and the 3 better looks committed to the pot, he's not folding on many flops. Why didn't the original raiser shove? Because he thought he was almost certainly behind and hoped to get lucky by calling, the fact he is very likely to be up against a premium pair appears irrelevant because its a bounty hunter and people have seen players 3 bet with rubbish, do most of us really think the OP has rubbish here?
Playing to get lucky is bad, I play only one tourney a week and that's live, but I see plenty of this call and hope garbage, implied odds, its only half my stack are excuses to luck your way to a tourney win because you lack the skills to play properly. If you put enough hands into pokerstove you can justify calling the 3 bet, but in all likelihood you need to hit a 9 or T to be ahead of AK/AQ and then dodge the turn and river, or two pair/straight to be ahead of JJ-AA, how likely is that?
The worst part of this thread is that this is a poker clinic, I thank the poker gods its not a health clinic.