No updates thus far, as not much poker stuff has happened.
Having seen the sng promo I expected the action to be really good in the HU sngs, but it just turned out to be people 6+ tabling £21 Hypers v eachother all day.
The HU formats I play now aren't even included, and with the Hyper TSP games being highlighted at the top of the lobby and 10+ open to register at once, it's proved impossible to get action in the turbos.
I was sat waiting at a £10.50 speed, £10.50 turbo and a £5.25 turbo for 30 minutes during peak time at one point without getting a game
So with the HU sngs being out of comission (hopefully only until the end of Jan) I had to go looking for another soft format which I'd be able to play in the evening part of the grind.
As has happened many times before I 'fell' into PLO cash.
It's a weird game, because the variance is so high that it's tough to know if you're playing well or not as a noob.
Results probably mean less in this format than most others, because I'd imagine you can play awful and still win over a long period of time. Likewise you can play well and lose for ages.
So although my results have been good, I don't really know how good I am. I'm not sure if I love or hate that about PLO.
I'm often sat at a few tables of 25plo thinking I've got the beating of the games at this level, and with abit of study I could crush and move up fairly easily.
But then I look over HHs the next day and it looks like I'm just getting lucky in alot of big pots. Idk if that's standard or not.
I've been looking for some free material to try and get better, as I'll be playing alot more of it at least for the rest of this month. Books/articles aren't for me, if anyone knows where I can find some PLO strategy videos I'd be very greatful if you could post the links or pm me.
I hope you've all had promising starts to 2015 on the felt.
Belated HNY all! .thinking I've got the beating of the games at this level, and with abit of study I could crush and move up fairly easily. But then I look over HHs the next day and it looks like I'm just getting lucky in alot of big pots. Idk if that's standard or not. I've been looking for some free material to try and get better, . Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Pretty cool that they have claimed to have solved hu limit.
One funny quirk of poker being 'solved' is that even though the bot is unbeatable and no player could do better v the bot than the bot could do v itself, put the bot v a fish and there are MANY players who would have a much bigger edge v that fish than the bot.
Solving no limit deep stacked poker would be a much more diffucult task by many orders of magnitude.
I've mostly taught myself PLO but there was a really brilliant article/video online for PLO that was really good. Not sure if I can recall where it is though
I thought PLO was high variance but hyper HU are on a different planet. I may have started off a bit rusty but that doesn't account for how bad I was running under -ev yesterday! Every time I shipped a small pair and got called by Ace rag or K rag they were always hitting - conversely when it was the opponent shipping with a small pair they'd always flop a set. Did have one beauty today though - A7s vs 33 AIPF. They flop a set and I hit a pair of 7's. Manage to hit quad 7s by the river!!
I've mostly taught myself PLO but there was a really brilliant article/video online for PLO that was really good. Not sure if I can recall where it is though I thought PLO was high variance but hyper HU are on a different planet. I may have started off a bit rusty but that doesn't account for how bad I was running under -ev yesterday! Every time I shipped a small pair and got called by Ace rag or K rag they were always hitting - conversely when it was the opponent shipping with a small pair they'd always flop a set. Did have one beauty today though - A7s vs 33 AIPF. They flop a set and I hit a pair of 7's. Manage to hit quad 7s by the river!! Really enjoying trying out this format though! Posted by F_Ivanovic
Yes I remember that Hand quite well! GL with this week on the sit and go leaderboard, i have decided that its pointless me and you going crazy this week, as we have both surpassed 20k points by now, and at this rate we would get around 75k+ at the end of the week, which is crazy when last week only 34k was needed to win. Therefore im gonna wait till next week for my grind, and hopefully will see you at the UKPC.
In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary" : Yes I remember that Hand quite well! GL with this week on the sit and go leaderboard, i have decided that its pointless me and you going crazy this week, as we have both surpassed 20k points by now, and at this rate we would get around 75k+ at the end of the week, which is crazy when last week only 34k was needed to win. Therefore im gonna wait till next week for my grind, and hopefully will see you at the UKPC. Posted by GSmith13
20k?! Was on 9k after the first day so doubt I'd have managed 11k points today.
Yeah first week the volume was poor compared to this week lol. Not sure if/when Alvez is going to go for it... guessing he might wait till the last week so yeah next week would be a good shout. Yup, hopefully Still 5 more days grinding to go! Hopefully I'll have it locked up with a day to spare :P
It was like the old days, up half the night donking off on the cash tables, playing 1 but seeing 3, only this time I was playing 4 cards and seeing 12!
I normally forget all the hands I play in a session the next day unless something really good or bad happens. Normally bad.
3 hands stand out from my Saturday session, for different reasons.
First one is nlhe. I thought this was a pretty cool call down.
The Good.
SCW018 posts small blind [$150] kdr05 posts big blind [$300]
The opponent is playing (calling) a lot of hands pre flop. The flop has a lot of draws, and a 'donk' bet is typically pretty weak. There's hearts, 9x, Tx that make up a lot of his donking range, as well as a significant amount weak Qx and Jx hands and occasionally some 8x.
On the turn I don't think that range changes too much.
Of course the 2nd Q makes it less likely he has Qx. So his range is now more 2nd pair and draw heavy than on the flop due to 'combos' of Qx being taken away.
I've got good equity whatever he has, as well as position and the bet size is really small on flop and turn so it's a no brainer call down so far.
I miss on the river, but so do all the other draws.
His sizing is pretty interesting, he leads into me for just over a third of the pot iirc.
I'm going to make the assumption that he doesn't have Qx. There's 2 on the board, which makes it tough to have one anyway, but to bet so small on all 3 streets isn't something I'd expect from a loose passive 'fun' player with top trips. He'd probably consider all Qx hands to be the nuts here and bet close to pot, if not on the turn then definitely the river.
I'd expect him to show up with Jx a fair amount of the time although I still have doubts though about whether a fun player like this would value bet 2nd pair 3 times in a spot like this.
I thought 88/9T would be unlikely because I'd expect bigger sizing's on every street, so it left me thinking I was up against a range of Jx, missed hearts and missed straight draws.
The price I'm getting means I don't have to be good very often, and I think he has more than enough missed draws to make this a fairly easy (?) call, given I beat all the missed draws apart from Axhh, A9 and AT.
It was nice to be right for once!
The Bad
All downhill from here.
I signed up to runitonce 'essential' on Saturday morning and squeezed a vid in before the session.
It suggested to me that I was under-estimating the value of backdoor draws in plo. It's something I tried to work on in the late night plo cash session and not just snap give up when it looks like I've totally missed the flop.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
DOHHHHHHH
Small blind
£0.10
£0.10
£156.17
IDONKCALLU
Big blind
£0.20
£0.30
£24.44
Your hole cards
Q
6
9
10
chrisbhoy
Call
£0.20
£0.50
£19.80
pappa1949
Raise
£0.90
£1.40
£34.94
zozo1115
Fold
loulou63
Fold
DOHHHHHHH
Raise
£2.30
£3.70
£153.87
IDONKCALLU
Fold
chrisbhoy
Raise
£8.10
£11.80
£11.70
pappa1949
Fold
DOHHHHHHH
Call
£5.90
£17.70
£147.97
Flop
J
4
5
DOHHHHHHH
Check
chrisbhoy
All-in
£11.70
£29.40
£0.00
DOHHHHHHH
Call
£11.70
£41.10
£136.27
DOHHHHHHH
Show
Q
6
9
10
chrisbhoy
Show
A
6
5
A
Turn
2
River
10
chrisbhoy
Win
Pair of Aces
£39.30
£39.30
Think I took it abit too far on this occasion!!!!!
The very very Ugly
No write up required here. (I was bluffing with the blocker to the 1 flush he could have that he might fold. wp me)
Not a big fan of your aggressive preflop play with those PLO starting hands especially oop.
OK so we dont have to nit up and only bet strong AAKx ds kind of hands but the 6c really weakens your first hand as it connects with nothing except the Qc for a possible 3rd highest flush.
The KKJ8 rainbow is a pretty poor hand - maybe worth isolating 1 opponent who you can bluff against - or set mining in a passive game, otherwise how often does that hand play well enough post flop to make you money?
PLO is a drawing game and so (multiple) nut drawing hands and position are so valuable.
PS good call on the nlhe hand - see a lot of that sort of play in low level SNGs and have started making profitable "hero" calls in similar spots now.
I'm pretty new to the game, and I'm trying to develop as fast as possible, which inevitably means I'm going to play some hands very very poorly.
Obviously post flop is a shambles in both hands, but the comments about pre flop are interesting.
The Q6cc 9Thh hand is one I really wanted to play. The problem is both of my flush draws are non-nutted, so playing it multi way out of position isn't something I felt would be easy to do?
I thought it would be an easier and more profitable hand to play if I got it heads up and had the initiative rather than being 3way out of position as the non-aggressor?
I didn't have a read on chrisdbhoy at the time, but I guess it makes sense for him to limp some of his bad AAxx utg hoping for some big action behind to backraise, or to get a good price to set mine multi way. But even when he back 4bets his hand is face up and I can easily call with my hand against what is almost always AAxx, and therefore being 4bet isn't that much of a concern?
The KK is meh.
I have to set mine with it right? Getting such a good price in the big blind and closing the action, I feel anything other than a call here would be horrific?
Having said that, if I'm going to go crackers post flop then maybe I should just fold. Or stand. Or self exclude or something.
IDCU is a mate of mine, it was just a comedy levelling war type thing where only one of us was levelling!
-----------------
I have a feeling you wont like alot of what you do as I will continue to play a very aggressive game pre and post flop.
This idea about it being a 'drawing game' isn't something I like to buy into too much. The comment itself implies that the game is all about hands, and cards, reading our hand and the board but I'm much more into playing the players and forcing them to make mistakes rather than focussing too much on my hand and the board.
The good thing about PLO is that I'm rarely going to be that far behind, and if I push people hard and put them in awkward spots I'm going to make life really difficult for them. If they make the right play and see through me, there's the 2nd obsticle for them to overcome which is fading the pot equity I have in the hand.
It's early days and there's lots of fine tuning to be done but it's a style I'm going to stick with for now.
I'm going to be posting more PLO stuff and would really appreciate your input. Even though we probably play differently I'm sure alot of the basic fundementals will be the same and it's stuff I need alot of help with!
I am not really a PLO expert - I have studied it quite a bit and played recreationally - I am now playing PLO8 for 4 card action again purely recreationally.
I fully accept that it isnt just about the cards. It generally is a "drawing game" - which in turn means you can create havoc by being aggro against players who are only drawing and only getting aggro themselves with the nuts or multiple draws to nuts. Tight Players are ridiculously exploitable post flop especially HU. Good players will adjust though and you will quickly lose your bluffing edge post flop.
Generally we just dont want to be multiway postflop with puke starting hands and definitely not oop.
On reflection....
Hand 1 I see what you are saying about trying to isolate - I am not sure entering a limp + raised pot from the sb is ever going to be +ev, but you may as well try and take the initiative and get heads up if you can. After the pot r/r I am binning tbh as by calling you have bloated the pot, lost the initiative, know you are behind pre and wont have many nut options post and are oop.
Ok to set mine hand 2 - bear in mind you can flop the nuts and still be a massive dog in PLO. I dont think I need to add to the post flop critique?
Happy to share thoughts with anyone who wants a debate - I learn more from being at least challenged and certainly when proved wrong with my own thinking. These discussions are always 2 way streets.
Hmmm a few more hands like that and you might start believing its a drawing game Dohh.
Not a 4 way connected hand again - Not saying dont open with AA(Q8) but beware of its limitations especially 3 way. You flopped the nuts but hard to improve - your hand would be so much better with 2 broadways to match the AA or at the very least double suited with hearts in this case. Dream time in PLO is the nuts AND draw(s) to more nuts albeit harder to find a customer.
Tight (most) PLO regs will only look to play classic 4cards that all work together e.g. 1 pair and 2 adjacent cards double suited or 4 adjacent cards double suited. At least one A and all broadway is dreamland but then hands like (78)(89) can also play very well if they connect in a multiway pot.
back to the hand...
Personally I would pot the flop as you have the nuts so make the most of it but on the turn I would slow down.
As played the fact you have the FH outs covered means you probably do have to call, the implied odds are great for you if the board pairs (quads excepted). Not just KQxx interested here. There are all the of JJxx=/TTxx/JTxx combos and especially 2 hearted ones that are liking the flop and/or the turn. With KQ combos now having the nuts you are quite likely to be behind to 1 of your opponents. But you could be facing someone with a lot of outs for the str8/flush combined with 2 pair or a set. Or maybe they just read your above hands/watched you for a few orbits and are bluffing you
Having said all that about classic ranges etc - witness what happened on the PLO8 tables (Tikays diary) when new players (e.g. Geldy) came in playing aggro with wide ranges - carnage for a while. Adjustments have been made by some. Easier to be aggro and get away with it in dym format though. Why dont you give them a go?
Phantom unfortunately the premium hands in PLO do not come around very often at all - if you only waited for AAJTds (and similar strength AA) premium KK like KKQJds or KKQQds and then DS rundowns you aren't going to be playing many hands at all - it's equivalent to just playing AKs, QQ+ in Holdem.
AAQ8ss is more than strong enough to open. Flop I agree with you I would definitely be betting bigger and at least 80% pot. Turn is a bit ugly but could have been worse and there's only 1 straight that got there (and we hold a Q blocker) HU it's a clear bet but 3 way I'm not sure. Think it's still a bet. OFC a lot of it depends on how wide ranges are pre. Vs tight villains I'm checking but loose villains are just going to have so much worse that not betting would be a mistake.
As played, it's actually a fold if we think villain only has KQ. We need 33.6% equity and only have 27%. But ofc we'd need really dead cert reads to know that for sure. If he has any other hand in his range then we have the right equity and folding could become a big mistake.
Phantom unfortunately the premium hands in PLO do not come around very often at all - if you only waited for AAJTds (and similar strength AA) premium KK like KKQJds or KKQQds and then DS rundowns you aren't going to be playing many hands at all - it's equivalent to just playing AKs, QQ+ in Holdem. AAQ8ss is more than strong enough to open. Flop I agree with you I would definitely be betting bigger and at least 80% pot. Turn is a bit ugly but could have been worse and there's only 1 straight that got there (and we hold a Q blocker) HU it's a clear bet but 3 way I'm not sure. Think it's still a bet. OFC a lot of it depends on how wide ranges are pre. Vs tight villains I'm checking but loose villains are just going to have so much worse that not betting would be a mistake. As played, it's actually a fold if we think villain only has KQ. We need 33.6% equity and only have 27%. But ofc we'd need really dead cert reads to know that for sure. If he has any other hand in his range then we have the right equity and folding could become a big mistake. Posted by F_Ivanovic
Wasnt saying dont open - I would open - top pair one str8 connector and 1 suit connector is good to go. It just shows how quickly nut hands can get devalued in PLO especially multi handed. You can lead out with the nuts in some situations and know you making a solid fold by the time the action is back on you if you have 0 redraws and the action has been heavy. 4 connected cards greatly increases the chances of having good made hands and good draws not just one or the other.
Appreciate its a fold if we assume its KQ and thanks for the calcs. I just think the possibility is that there are paired/set + flush draw combos that could have r/r us. Also the implied odds of FH over FH are greater than reverse odds of us hitting FH and villain quads which edges me to be ok with the call.
Some players that r/r is a snap fold and especially a tight solid reg - I just think the way Doh appears to be playing post flop (small sample maybe he is just throwing forum readers off scent) people could easily be playing aggro back at him and in this hand he has plenty of equity to see another card.
Comments
I thought PLO was high variance but hyper HU are on a different planet. I may have started off a bit rusty but that doesn't account for how bad I was running under -ev yesterday! Every time I shipped a small pair and got called by Ace rag or K rag they were always hitting - conversely when it was the opponent shipping with a small pair they'd always flop a set. Did have one beauty today though - A7s vs 33 AIPF. They flop a set and I hit a pair of 7's. Manage to hit quad 7s by the river!!
Really enjoying trying out this format though!
Long session on Saturday/Sunday morning.
It was like the old days, up half the night donking off on the cash tables, playing 1 but seeing 3, only this time I was playing 4 cards and seeing 12!
I normally forget all the hands I play in a session the next day unless something really good or bad happens. Normally bad.
3 hands stand out from my Saturday session, for different reasons.
First one is nlhe. I thought this was a pretty cool call down.
The Good.
SCW018 posts small blind [$150]
kdr05 posts big blind [$300]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DOHHHHHHH24 [ Kd, Tc ]
LazyLckyFish folds hussle4la folds
thedrumkit folds Richard1811 folds
DOHHHHHHH24 raises [$611]
PokarSter folds jiZYo folds SCW018 calls [$461]
kdr05 calls [$311]
** Dealing flop ** [ Qh, Jh, 8s ]
SCW018 checks
kdr05 bets [$300]
DOHHHHHHH24 calls [$300]
SCW018 folds
** Dealing turn ** [ Qc ]
kdr05 bets [$600]
DOHHHHHHH24 calls [$600]
** Dealing river ** [ 7s ]
kdr05 bets [$1,500]
DOHHHHHHH24 calls [$1,500]
** Summary **
kdr05 shows [ 2h, 9s ]
DOHHHHHHH24 shows [ Kd, Tc ]
DOHHHHHHH24 collected [ $6,993 ]
It's nice when something like this comes off.
The opponent is playing (calling) a lot of hands pre flop. The flop has a lot of draws, and a 'donk' bet is typically pretty weak. There's hearts, 9x, Tx that make up a lot of his donking range, as well as a significant amount weak Qx and Jx hands and occasionally some 8x.
On the turn I don't think that range changes too much.
Of course the 2nd Q makes it less likely he has Qx. So his range is now more 2nd pair and draw heavy than on the flop due to 'combos' of Qx being taken away.
I've got good equity whatever he has, as well as position and the bet size is really small on flop and turn so it's a no brainer call down so far.
I miss on the river, but so do all the other draws.
His sizing is pretty interesting, he leads into me for just over a third of the pot iirc.
I'm going to make the assumption that he doesn't have Qx. There's 2 on the board, which makes it tough to have one anyway, but to bet so small on all 3 streets isn't something I'd expect from a loose passive 'fun' player with top trips. He'd probably consider all Qx hands to be the nuts here and bet close to pot, if not on the turn then definitely the river.
I'd expect him to show up with Jx a fair amount of the time although I still have doubts though about whether a fun player like this would value bet 2nd pair 3 times in a spot like this.
I thought 88/9T would be unlikely because I'd expect bigger sizing's on every street, so it left me thinking I was up against a range of Jx, missed hearts and missed straight draws.
The price I'm getting means I don't have to be good very often, and I think he has more than enough missed draws to make this a fairly easy (?) call, given I beat all the missed draws apart from Axhh, A9 and AT.
It was nice to be right for once!
The Bad
All downhill from here.
I signed up to runitonce 'essential' on Saturday morning and squeezed a vid in before the session.
It suggested to me that I was under-estimating the value of backdoor draws in plo. It's something I tried to work on in the late night plo cash session and not just snap give up when it looks like I've totally missed the flop.
The very very Ugly
No write up required here. (I was bluffing with the blocker to the 1 flush he could have that he might fold. wp me)
2.30am. Says it all.
More of the same today
Small wins on both sites yesterday.
Just got a hand I want to put up, as it's a spot I seem to be getting into trouble with quite abit.
But am I right to bet the turn in the first place, given that we're 3 ways and KQxx is going to be a reasonable part of opponents ranges?
AAQ8ss is more than strong enough to open. Flop I agree with you I would definitely be betting bigger and at least 80% pot. Turn is a bit ugly but could have been worse and there's only 1 straight that got there (and we hold a Q blocker) HU it's a clear bet but 3 way I'm not sure. Think it's still a bet. OFC a lot of it depends on how wide ranges are pre. Vs tight villains I'm checking but loose villains are just going to have so much worse that not betting would be a mistake.
As played, it's actually a fold if we think villain only has KQ. We need 33.6% equity and only have 27%. But ofc we'd need really dead cert reads to know that for sure. If he has any other hand in his range then we have the right equity and folding could become a big mistake.