don, i dont agree here mate, he didnt "get it in" he 3 bet! even dn doesnt 3 bet only with aa kk. you CANT have known he had aa kk here. like lambert says in the long run set minning with qq isnt/cant be profitable.
don, i dont agree here mate, he didnt "get it in" he 3 bet! even dn doesnt 3 bet only with aa kk. you CANT have known he had aa kk here. like lambert says in the long run set minning with qq isnt/cant be profitable. Posted by pod1
i was pretty confident of my read tbh mate. on this occassion it was right. obv others it wont be. But my range for him was AA/KK/AK im adding AK in but tbh i felt that was bottom end of his range. QQ obv but thats again unlikley as theres on combo of QQ left. i just dont think jacks are in his 3b range.
ps im not good at maths as you know but if you flat for 20bb 12times (i think that is the chances of hitting a set its going to cost you 240 bb. considering most people are sat with 100 bb i cant see how this is profitable. plz correct my thinking here ,like i say i might be looking at the maths here all wrong.
Didnt even bother reading the 1st page here and only saw pod's post above.
Imo you dont set mine with QQ , virtually never , if ure like mega deep and have very gd info on oppo then maybe BUT over time im sure this MUST be a losing strategy.
I wont do it , i will get it in pre with QQ or if my info on oppo is spot on and am 99% sure they have AA or KK then i will fold.
tbh, the worst hand i cud put him on was QQ, however because i have QQ thats very very unlikley. AK is possible, but im sorry but im not comfortable flipping for 500BB pot,
Against 90% of players ill 4bet QQ however v a guy whos range i have as narrow i just dnt think its +EV
sorry but putting someone on aa/kk off of a "3bet " isnt right. player dependent or not at any level in cash or mtt for that matter! can you run through the maths plz on the implied odds here.
One of the biggest mistakes made by weak pot limit and no limit players is to over estimate just how much money they can win later on by calling with a weak hand, hoping to hit a big flop and win a big pot cracking a big hand. Although implied odds are an important concept in big bet games, they can very easily be over used, and if they are, can quickly become a huge leak in your game.
The bottom line of this is very simple - good players have very poor implied odds when you come up against them. Just like in all forms of poker, good players win more with their strong hands, and lose less with their weak hands, than bad players do. This means that regularly in pots where they hold even quite big pre flop hands, that they will be able to get away with losing relatively small amounts, making your loose pre flop call actually a huge mistake, as you lose money every time you miss, and barely win anything even when you do hit.
This problem can become even more pronounced if you are quite bad at getting away from big hands yourself, as not only are they not paying you off much when you hit, but when the shoe is on the other foot you are losing much more - a dual effect that has huge consequences over the long run.
Yep I'd be happy to set mine here with any pair against a vvvvv tight range (more likely to get the lot if we hit).
If he's 3 betting wider, say TT+ AQs+, the QQ becomes a 4 bet, and lower pps become folds (as we might hit a set and get nothing on alot of flops, and very little on others)
thanks for the breakdown, like i say then this all boils down to putting him on aa kk on his 3 bet. i still say that is virtually impossible. if you say don the "only" time he 3bets is with aa or kk i believe you. just i have never never come across this before in cash.
thanks for the breakdown, like i say then this all boils down to putting him on aa kk on his 3 bet. i still say that is virtually impossible. if you say don the "only" time he 3bets is with aa or kk i believe you. just i have never never come across this before in cash. Posted by pod1
i could name you one player you play against regularly that i rekon has the exact same range. wont do it publically tho. but if u wish pm me
don had the required price with implied so it's fine to flat But yeah you have to know for certain oppo's range is AA/KK if you ever consider flatting here In essence it highlights Don's 4 betting range as AA/KK I think Don is saying this was very player dependant ) Posted by rancid
No you dont
If we 4bet his 3betting range is not the most important range to look at
In Response to Re: set mining with queens @ NL4 : No you dont If we 4bet his 3betting range is not the most important range to look at Posted by grantorino
What you saying GT ? Bluffing range/5 bet range/flat a 4 bet
I'm sorry but I find it almost impossible to believe you can put anyone on JUST AA/KK from this bet... how many times have you seen this guy 3bet and go to a showdown, and has it been AA/KK 100% of the time, not 99%, has to be EVERY SINGLE TIME... and even then, how many times has he 3bet and you've seen his cards, once, twice, ten times, it's still not enough to make it that strong a read.
I had this guy as a weak player, so he's passive and a bit of a station. Earlier he limp called my 3 bet w/ Q6dd, flop went 3 way and he made a house v another weak player holding Q8, board was QQ65A.
Here he has a very big hand, he's passive and 3 betting your UTG raise out of the blinds, how many clues do we need? The range your putting him on is right and your a 60/40 dog against it. He's not 3 betting you with a hand your beating AQ/JJ/TT or the 1 combo of QQ so you can’t 4 bet this player in this spot for value. Your both deep so calling is the best play, if you flop a set the fact his range is so narrow means you will almost certainly win a very big pot, this player is never folding AA/KK as an over pair.
The only hand your ahead of here is AK but again flatting is fine v this player in this spot as I doubt he would barrel a missed flop and turn. Your ip so I think you can plan to call any non AK flop and fold to a turn barrel. Folding on a non AK flop is too weak imo to a cbet when he can have AK in his range. If he checks flop I would bet/fold if he check raises you.
Post hand I entered "dream spot for you Don v him there" in chat and it certainly was.
IMO you played the hand well.
You played another hand with him soon after where you lost half the money back to him, if I recall rightly you had AK and it went check/check on mono club flop A high, on a non club turn he c/c with JcTx and he only c/c river when he made his broadway straight. I seem to recall that your river "value" bet was too big and I that you should have bet the flop but this hand again showed this player to be passive and a bit of a station.
Comments
Imo you dont set mine with QQ , virtually never , if ure like mega deep and have very gd info on oppo then maybe BUT over time im sure this MUST be a losing strategy.
I wont do it , i will get it in pre with QQ or if my info on oppo is spot on and am 99% sure they have AA or KK then i will fold.
But yeah you have to know for certain oppo's range is AA/KK if you ever consider flatting here
In essence it highlights Don's 4 betting range as AA/KK
I think Don is saying this was very player dependant )
tbh, the worst hand i cud put him on was QQ, however because i have QQ thats very very unlikley. AK is possible, but im sorry but im not comfortable flipping for 500BB pot,
Against 90% of players ill 4bet QQ however v a guy whos range i have as narrow i just dnt think its +EV
Os say it runs out like this,
I 4 bet to 3.20
He 5bets
Now i have to fold.
Easier to call 86p flop a Queen or fold surley
One of the biggest mistakes made by weak pot limit and no limit players is to over estimate just how much money they can win later on by calling with a weak hand, hoping to hit a big flop and win a big pot cracking a big hand. Although implied odds are an important concept in big bet games, they can very easily be over used, and if they are, can quickly become a huge leak in your game.
The bottom line of this is very simple - good players have very poor implied odds when you come up against them. Just like in all forms of poker, good players win more with their strong hands, and lose less with their weak hands, than bad players do. This means that regularly in pots where they hold even quite big pre flop hands, that they will be able to get away with losing relatively small amounts, making your loose pre flop call actually a huge mistake, as you lose money every time you miss, and barely win anything even when you do hit.
This problem can become even more pronounced if you are quite bad at getting away from big hands yourself, as not only are they not paying you off much when you hit, but when the shoe is on the other foot you are losing much more - a dual effect that has huge consequences over the long run.
need 12/1 or even close to 15/1 to make it profitable long term to balance against the times you miss
If we 4bet his 3betting range is not the most important range to look at
expand a little plz
Don,
I had this guy as a weak player, so he's passive and a bit of a station. Earlier he limp called my 3 bet w/ Q6dd, flop went 3 way and he made a house v another weak player holding Q8, board was QQ65A.
Here he has a very big hand, he's passive and 3 betting your UTG raise out of the blinds, how many clues do we need? The range your putting him on is right and your a 60/40 dog against it. He's not 3 betting you with a hand your beating AQ/JJ/TT or the 1 combo of QQ so you can’t 4 bet this player in this spot for value. Your both deep so calling is the best play, if you flop a set the fact his range is so narrow means you will almost certainly win a very big pot, this player is never folding AA/KK as an over pair.
The only hand your ahead of here is AK but again flatting is fine v this player in this spot as I doubt he would barrel a missed flop and turn. Your ip so I think you can plan to call any non AK flop and fold to a turn barrel. Folding on a non AK flop is too weak imo to a cbet when he can have AK in his range. If he checks flop I would bet/fold if he check raises you.
Post hand I entered "dream spot for you Don v him there" in chat and it certainly was.
IMO you played the hand well.
You played another hand with him soon after where you lost half the money back to him, if I recall rightly you had AK and it went check/check on mono club flop A high, on a non club turn he c/c with JcTx and he only c/c river when he made his broadway straight. I seem to recall that your river "value" bet was too big and I that you should have bet the flop but this hand again showed this player to be passive and a bit of a station.