Tommy can u analyse your thoughts on this hand for me last night All Rounder PLO, obviously tounaments are my fortay(well supposed to be) but for some reason im always a bit lost in PLO ones. I am average but just feels bit weird and i dont feel like a have a proper strategy for PLO or maybe im a bit limited due to lack of experiance? I am aware my hand isn't the greatest pre as i have 3 of the same suit altho 3 cards work very well together. at this point i was looking for a spot, i actually did think its possibly utg has QQ/KK/AAxx type hands. Due to my stack i didnt want to just call and let digger in for cheap and once im raising im sort of accepting that its a bit of a gamble all in. Do you think this is ever a good spot? be ruthless on your thoughs please, also if you could give any advice about improving my MTT game for PLO other then use position is obviously key. I have no reads on both opponents as ive never played them PLO and was only just moved to the table a few hands ago. DiggerMan Small blind 30.00 30.00 2278.75 YOUNG_GUN Big blind 60.00 90.00 1875.00 SHANXTA Sit out Your hole cards A 9 8 10 bazwin Raise 120.00 210.00 1525.00 DazR Fold BOYDID Fold DiggerMan Call 90.00 300.00 2188.75 YOUNG_GUN Raise 420.00 720.00 1455.00 bazwin Raise 1440.00 2160.00 85.00 DiggerMan Fold YOUNG_GUN All-in 1455.00 3615.00 0.00 bazwin All-in 85.00 3700.00 0.00 YOUNG_GUN Unmatched bet 290.00 3410.00 290.00 YOUNG_GUN Show A 9 8 10 bazwin Show 6 K K A Flop 6 7 Q Turn Q River 3 bazwin Win Two Pairs, Kings and Queens 3410.00 3410.00 Posted by YOUNG_GUN
Sit down John and have a drink. This isn't going to be pretty.
I think your thinking is totally upside down here. Firstly you mention your stack, you have 30BB. Yes not deep but no need to go mental with this Tellytubby of a hand.
Secondly you say you don't want Digger in cheap. With this hand that is exactly what you want, The old adage of PLO compared to NLHE was that in NLHE you make your money by getting people out of a pot but in PLO you make your money by getting people into a pot. This still holds true today. PLO by it's nature is a drawing game. You want to either make nut/very strong hands and get paid or represent the nuts to nick a few here and there. There is barely any hand you can have that you want to get a 30BB stack into the middle preflop. This hand is certainly not one of the few. The more in the pot the merrier as long as it's cheap to get into, then on the occasions you make your nut hand or get a huge combo draw (straight wrap draw and NFD etc) you have much more chance of getting paid with more people in there. We're equity peddling and we want the money in when our equity is much higher than everyone else. There are spots where we can bluff down the streets but that's more advanced and more effective with deeper stacks.
Hand strength - Not great, not completely awful as at least we have a three card run down and a nut suit, but we still block one of our flush outs and a 3 card run down is not a little bit worse that 4 cards consecutive, it's quite a bit worse (a better way to look at it is a 4 card rundown is a lot better). We're out of position which is bad but it's only one more blind to see the flop and more importantly we close the preflop action, so I'm flicking in the call here to see the flop.
Irony - If the player with the Kings understands PLO you could get him off on the flop or turn. At the very least you can get it in with a decent amount of equity. Now I don't know the player so I don't know if semi bluffing or calling to draw on your wrap draw is the correct play in this spot, but at least you would have had options.
John, you're still approaching PLO like it's NLHE with bonus cards. Erase that thinking. It's a completely new game to learn.
You are correct call would have been best here, i think it was more my thinking of needing a double up thern to squeeze digger out really think i worded it wrong but still not very good.
shall get back to the drawing board for PLO MTT's :P thanks mate
cash question: How do u feel getting qq all in pre 100 bb deep v randoms? Should i try to avoid this more often than not untill i have some sort of read ?
Secondly you say you don't want Digger in cheap. With this hand that is exactly what you want, The old adage of PLO compared to NLHE was that in NLHE you make your money by getting people out of a pot but in PLO you make your money by getting people into a pot. This still holds true today. PLO by it's nature is a drawing game.
Tommy, that is so well described. Is any game so misunderstood by so many, as Omaha?
cash question: How do u feel getting qq all in pre 100 bb deep v randoms? Should i try to avoid this more often than not untill i have some sort of read ? Posted by 1267
+1 to this question, is it bad to go all in pre with QQ against unknown
Hey Been reading this thread alot, but on my phone at work so cant really post anything. When I get home I tend to play and not post so whilst im just finishing a sessions thought i'd drop by. Have really enjoyed reading it so far makes those boring hours at work go so much quicker thanks Posted by PiAnOpLaYa
Very kind of you to say, thank you and everyone else who has been so kind about this thread.
I'm quite astounded how well this has been received and totally delighted. I will try to keep it fresh and interesting, using all the jazzy lingo the kids use.
i was being srs about getting a HU game if you want to try and play regs, other than launder&rosie i dont think there are others who sit at HU table that will actually play you. ive been chat tilting alot this month, not had a winning week since 2012 came around gets pretty frustrating. i make sure to just give abuse to regs though dont want to tap the tank and all that Posted by LOL_RAISE
Cool mate, i understand now. You're too good not to turn 2012 round pretty darn soon, feel free to chat tilt me, I'm normally on mini-view
Got a load of questions queued up which is great, will answer them all hopefully tomorrow. My mindset isn't quite there tonight to give you guys the answers they deserve, so we'll do a bedtime story instead.
I've mentioned it earlier, but I play at an interesting private club called Harlow Hounds. Yes in the town of roundabouts in the middle of a trading estate by a dog track, many old school gamblers and youthful degens sit down to play some pokers. The front door of the venue is normally in a constant state of swinging as people go to a cashpoint to reload for the cash game (I have absolutely no idea where this cashpoint is, the place is pretty much in the middle of nowhere). The cash game is juicier than a mouthful of Opal Fruits (for the very young among you these are now called Starburst, but i refuse to change. And it's a Marathon, not a Snickers. Don't get me started on Jiff).
For a private members club the place is run pretty well. The floor is fair, dealers are always organised and are in general quite good and the tournament normally runs well. There was a small hitch the last time I was there though. About 90 minutes into a MTT the whole place had a power cut, complete darkness for ten seconds followed by the twinkle of 50 iPhones providing more spotlights than a Take That concert.
We're sat there for 10 minutes and an announcement is made that we'll wait another 20 minutes and if the power does not return, the remaining players will do a 60 way chop. Fair under the circumstances you think, I certainly thought so. However let's remember this was a room full of poker players.
These were the various responses.
'No way, we can play using the phones' 'I'm not doing a chop, I'll wait as long as it takes.' 'I've got more chips than him' 'I was knocked out, I should get my money back' 'We're still trying to play our hand' 'Is the kitchen still open?'
The fellow next to me then offered everyone at our table to toss a coin for our parts of the potential chop, gotta love a gambler. All through this the one cash table was still playing through phone-light. Nothing will ever stop six players seeing a flop in that game. Not a power cut, bomb blast or common sense.
Thankfully the lights returned, the cash players didn't blink. Then after spending ten minutes arguing if hands in progress should be redealt (a few people were very adamant they shouldn't be, and that was about as easy a live tell as you can find) we finally got going and had a laugh. I'm sure Bingo Bill hit three gutshots in the darkness.
Did anyone see Question Time last night? If you missed it you missed a treat in social analysis. Two of the guests were David Starkey and Clark Carlisle. For those of you who don't know who these people are here are the wiki pages:
Both are very intelligent but they are extraordinarily different. Starkey the well known Historian who is a huge campaigner of Equal Sexuality Rights and Carlisle, former Professional Footballer and now Chairman of the management committee at the PFA. I was hoping for so real debate between both these men but sadly it fell short. Starkey is almost impossible to debate with, if he sees one **** in your argument then he shuts down, shakes his head and puffs out his cheeks. For such an intelligent man he can have the maturity of a five year old.
Here we have two men who have had to battle discrimination all of their lives (Starkey is gay and Carlisle is black), you'd have hoped they meet at some common ground of mutual respect. Sadly I don't think Starkey could accept Carlisle as an intellectual peer as his couldn't get past the footballer stereotype and likewise Carlisle couldn't see anything other than a pompous posh bloke. Also I don't think either of them could accept each other's views on religion. We really need to find more middle ground if we're going to improve as a society. Otherwise wwe're just doomed to repeat each and every mistake of the past.
Carlisle is going to find his increasing amount of media appearances difficult in the future. I think he's trying to represent the balanced side of professional footballers but this is going to get increasingly tough as they earn more and more money while the average fan in the stands is sacrificing more and more to pay for a ticket. If the professionals he represented acted on the whole in a much more reserved manner then it would be possible, but he's only one more airgun incident away from arguing an impossible case.
Did anyone see Question Time last night? If you missed it you missed a treat in social analysis. Two of the guests were David Starkey and Clark Carlisle. For those of you who don't know who these people are here are the wiki pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Starkeyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Carlisle Both are very intelligent but they are extraordinarily different. Starkey the well known Historian who is a huge campaigner of Equal Sexuality Rights and Carlisle, former Professional Footballer and now Chairman of the management committee at the PFA. I was hoping for so real debate between both these men but sadly it fell short. Starkey is almost impossible to debate with, if he sees one **** in your argument then he shuts down, shakes his head and puffs out his cheeks. For such an intelligent man he can have the maturity of a five year old. Here we have two men who have had to battle discrimination all of their lives (Starkey is gay and Carlisle is black), you'd have hoped they meet at some common ground of mutual respect. Sadly I don't think Starkey could accept Carlisle as an intellectual peer as his couldn't get past the footballer stereotype and likewise Carlisle couldn't see anything other than a pompous posh bloke. Also I don't think either of them could accept each other's views on religion. We really need to find more middle ground if we're going to improve as a society. Otherwise wwe're just doomed to repeat each and every mistake of the past. Carlisle is going to find his increasing amount of media appearances difficult in the future. I think he's trying to represent the balanced side of professional footballers but this is going to get increasingly tough as they earn more and more money while the average fan in the stands is sacrificing more and more to pay for a ticket. If the professionals he represented acted on the whole in a much more reserved manner then it would be possible, but he's only one more airgun incident away from arguing an impossible case. Posted by TommyD
lol epic rubdown,
he currently plays for my beloved Northampton Town.
I missed this episode of Question Time but i want to catch it at some point over the weekend on iplayer.
In Response to Re: Many Rivers To Cross. A Diary. : lol epic rubdown, he currently plays for my beloved Northampton Town. I missed this episode of Question Time but i want to catch it at some point over the weekend on iplayer. Posted by splashies
ooooopppppppppssssssssss!
Don't know why I got it into my head that he was retired, must be all of the TV he's doing. Stupidly I remember seeing him playing on the Football League Show recently I think.
Going out in a bit with a good friend so a night away from the grind. I'm just going to drop this hand down here for you to look at while me and my friend do our Fry and Laurie impersonations (this is not a joke, I'm Laurie).
It's HU PLO200, we're playing a person we think is decent but our notes say 'Pays off when on tilt'. We are at rather a stalemate in the contest when this hand happens. Now before anyone says it, I hate my turn bet at the moment. We get check raised on the turn, given the play before this point in my mind his hand is face up as nut straight no house extensions. We're not getting the odds to call for a pair up but if our notes are true we not only have implied odds in this hand but in all the hands in the session after. Should we call?
And yes it's not a very good starting hand, but we're playing HU and have the button. That's my defence for that.
cash question: How do u feel getting qq all in pre 100 bb deep v randoms? Should i try to avoid this more often than not untill i have some sort of read ? Posted by 1267
This is a tricky one and will probably expose me as being a spew-aholic but I'm willing to pay the buy in against a random in this spot to get that read.
Against a random holding QQ is one of the few occasions when I'm happier to call it off rather than be the shover. Of course it depends on the betting but these days being the jammer with QQ is much more likely to be turning QQ into a bluff than it was two years ago. I'm tending to call 3 and 4 bets while holding QQ these days, looking to assess on the flop rather than getting it all in pre, but if they overbet shove I'm still hitting call against a random.
I'm quite happy for people to argue against this and I confess I am not completely sure my line is optimal.
Interesting promotion for Priority Club members this month. They are running a DYM promotion where if you win 10 in the row of buy ins £11 and up you get your win doubled. I know Phil12UK is having a pop at this, pretty sure a few others will as well.
The bonus is limited to £500 so I don't think there's much point banging on the upper end DYMs to try to bag the bonus. My plan is to get my numbers up on the £11-£22 and then finish with a £110. Then do it again. Currently the plan is going surprisingly well, six not out.
Comments
I think your thinking is totally upside down here. Firstly you mention your stack, you have 30BB. Yes not deep but no need to go mental with this Tellytubby of a hand.
Secondly you say you don't want Digger in cheap. With this hand that is exactly what you want, The old adage of PLO compared to NLHE was that in NLHE you make your money by getting people out of a pot but in PLO you make your money by getting people into a pot. This still holds true today. PLO by it's nature is a drawing game. You want to either make nut/very strong hands and get paid or represent the nuts to nick a few here and there. There is barely any hand you can have that you want to get a 30BB stack into the middle preflop. This hand is certainly not one of the few. The more in the pot the merrier as long as it's cheap to get into, then on the occasions you make your nut hand or get a huge combo draw (straight wrap draw and NFD etc) you have much more chance of getting paid with more people in there. We're equity peddling and we want the money in when our equity is much higher than everyone else. There are spots where we can bluff down the streets but that's more advanced and more effective with deeper stacks.
Hand strength - Not great, not completely awful as at least we have a three card run down and a nut suit, but we still block one of our flush outs and a 3 card run down is not a little bit worse that 4 cards consecutive, it's quite a bit worse (a better way to look at it is a 4 card rundown is a lot better). We're out of position which is bad but it's only one more blind to see the flop and more importantly we close the preflop action, so I'm flicking in the call here to see the flop.
Irony - If the player with the Kings understands PLO you could get him off on the flop or turn. At the very least you can get it in with a decent amount of equity. Now I don't know the player so I don't know if semi bluffing or calling to draw on your wrap draw is the correct play in this spot, but at least you would have had options.
John, you're still approaching PLO like it's NLHE with bonus cards. Erase that thinking. It's a completely new game to learn.
Oh my oh my oh my......
Secondly you say you don't want Digger in cheap. With this hand that is exactly what you want, The old adage of PLO compared to NLHE was that in NLHE you make your money by getting people out of a pot but in PLO you make your money by getting people into a pot. This still holds true today. PLO by it's nature is a drawing game.
Tommy, that is so well described. Is any game so misunderstood by so many, as Omaha?
PS - will you marry me?
I'm quite astounded how well this has been received and totally delighted. I will try to keep it fresh and interesting, using all the jazzy lingo the kids use.
Word.
I've mentioned it earlier, but I play at an interesting private club called Harlow Hounds. Yes in the town of roundabouts in the middle of a trading estate by a dog track, many old school gamblers and youthful degens sit down to play some pokers. The front door of the venue is normally in a constant state of swinging as people go to a cashpoint to reload for the cash game (I have absolutely no idea where this cashpoint is, the place is pretty much in the middle of nowhere). The cash game is juicier than a mouthful of Opal Fruits (for the very young among you these are now called Starburst, but i refuse to change. And it's a Marathon, not a Snickers. Don't get me started on Jiff).
For a private members club the place is run pretty well. The floor is fair, dealers are always organised and are in general quite good and the tournament normally runs well. There was a small hitch the last time I was there though. About 90 minutes into a MTT the whole place had a power cut, complete darkness for ten seconds followed by the twinkle of 50 iPhones providing more spotlights than a Take That concert.
We're sat there for 10 minutes and an announcement is made that we'll wait another 20 minutes and if the power does not return, the remaining players will do a 60 way chop. Fair under the circumstances you think, I certainly thought so. However let's remember this was a room full of poker players.
These were the various responses.
'No way, we can play using the phones'
'I'm not doing a chop, I'll wait as long as it takes.'
'I've got more chips than him'
'I was knocked out, I should get my money back'
'We're still trying to play our hand'
'Is the kitchen still open?'
The fellow next to me then offered everyone at our table to toss a coin for our parts of the potential chop, gotta love a gambler. All through this the one cash table was still playing through phone-light. Nothing will ever stop six players seeing a flop in that game. Not a power cut, bomb blast or common sense.
Thankfully the lights returned, the cash players didn't blink. Then after spending ten minutes arguing if hands in progress should be redealt (a few people were very adamant they shouldn't be, and that was about as easy a live tell as you can find) we finally got going and had a laugh. I'm sure Bingo Bill hit three gutshots in the darkness.
That's live poker.
Did anyone see Question Time last night? If you missed it you missed a treat in social analysis. Two of the guests were David Starkey and Clark Carlisle. For those of you who don't know who these people are here are the wiki pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Starkey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Carlisle
Both are very intelligent but they are extraordinarily different. Starkey the well known Historian who is a huge campaigner of Equal Sexuality Rights and Carlisle, former Professional Footballer and now Chairman of the management committee at the PFA. I was hoping for so real debate between both these men but sadly it fell short. Starkey is almost impossible to debate with, if he sees one **** in your argument then he shuts down, shakes his head and puffs out his cheeks. For such an intelligent man he can have the maturity of a five year old.
Here we have two men who have had to battle discrimination all of their lives (Starkey is gay and Carlisle is black), you'd have hoped they meet at some common ground of mutual respect. Sadly I don't think Starkey could accept Carlisle as an intellectual peer as his couldn't get past the footballer stereotype and likewise Carlisle couldn't see anything other than a pompous posh bloke. Also I don't think either of them could accept each other's views on religion. We really need to find more middle ground if we're going to improve as a society. Otherwise wwe're just doomed to repeat each and every mistake of the past.
Carlisle is going to find his increasing amount of media appearances difficult in the future. I think he's trying to represent the balanced side of professional footballers but this is going to get increasingly tough as they earn more and more money while the average fan in the stands is sacrificing more and more to pay for a ticket. If the professionals he represented acted on the whole in a much more reserved manner then it would be possible, but he's only one more airgun incident away from arguing an impossible case.
he currently plays for my beloved Northampton Town.
I missed this episode of Question Time but i want to catch it at some point over the weekend on iplayer.
Don't know why I got it into my head that he was retired, must be all of the TV he's doing. Stupidly I remember seeing him playing on the Football League Show recently I think.
Many apologies, Up the Cobblers!!!
It's HU PLO200, we're playing a person we think is decent but our notes say 'Pays off when on tilt'. We are at rather a stalemate in the contest when this hand happens. Now before anyone says it, I hate my turn bet at the moment. We get check raised on the turn, given the play before this point in my mind his hand is face up as nut straight no house extensions. We're not getting the odds to call for a pair up but if our notes are true we not only have implied odds in this hand but in all the hands in the session after. Should we call?
And yes it's not a very good starting hand, but we're playing HU and have the button. That's my defence for that.
To answer your Q. I'm def calling! House up on the river FTW! NOW can you do some house keeping on ya thread! lol!
Pad
Against a random holding QQ is one of the few occasions when I'm happier to call it off rather than be the shover. Of course it depends on the betting but these days being the jammer with QQ is much more likely to be turning QQ into a bluff than it was two years ago. I'm tending to call 3 and 4 bets while holding QQ these days, looking to assess on the flop rather than getting it all in pre, but if they overbet shove I'm still hitting call against a random.
I'm quite happy for people to argue against this and I confess I am not completely sure my line is optimal.
The bonus is limited to £500 so I don't think there's much point banging on the upper end DYMs to try to bag the bonus. My plan is to get my numbers up on the £11-£22 and then finish with a £110. Then do it again. Currently the plan is going surprisingly well, six not out.
Come back soon for news on my epic fail.
Me and my big mouth. Fun run though, defo going to fire a few more bullets at it this month.