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moving table where`s the justice?

24

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  • bigal36903bigal36903 Member Posts: 1,011
    edited February 2012
    simple question, if the person that just had the blinds gets moved, does this happen on the spt tour aswell
  • SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice?:
    simple question, if the person that just had the blinds gets moved, does this happen on the spt tour aswell
    Posted by bigal36903
    Would be down to the Casino house rules I guess, but if it's a complete table break, there's always the possibility as it's usually done on a random basis.

    If it's just moving one player to balance tables then they would usually have a system in place to protect against this happening
  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice?:
    If your question is "where is the randomness for that" then I'd say this... If this sequence of events never happened that would make the table move algorithm non-random.
    Posted by Machka
    Sadly, Aaron it is not random. As has been pointed out many times. The software is flawed. If 1 player leaves a table - it is WITHOUT EXCEPTION the button that moves, rather than the person who is next to be the big blind (as happens live in every casino I have played in).

    I imagine it would take a decent programmer 10 minutes to fix, yet it's been like this for 5 years now.
  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited February 2012
    I don't want to get bogged down in "rules", but the convention of moving the BB has obvious merit.

    It is clearly unfair to expect a player to pay the 2 blinds, then not get a go at the button. Especially as there is a decent chance they will cop for the blinds again soon on the new table.

    Of the 6 places to choose, Sky has picked the most unfair one. Why?

    EDIT: on SPT events, I have never seen anyone other than the BB moved (unless the entire table splits)
  • djblacke04djblacke04 Member Posts: 1,778
    edited February 2012


    i think its wrong when you moved from posting BB into Posting BB


  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited February 2012
    Eyeman is correct, the player who has just posted the SB and is due to be on the button next is the player who gets moved 100% of the time. There's a good chance that player will be posting the blinds again almost immediately at their new table. Bizzarely if he/she gets moved to the button on another table they have to sit that hand out, even though that would have been their position for the next hand had they not been moved. 

    This flaw has been pointed out many times before, hopefully it will be fixed in a future software update.
  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited February 2012

    Funnily enough it happened to me just after making the post above. After posting the SB in this hand;

    Hand History #485127376 (11:19 28/02/2012)

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    GaryQQQ Small blind  30.00 30.00 2325.00
    Merkin Big blind  60.00 90.00 3950.00
     Your hole cards
    • J
    • 2
       
    k_mac Fold     
    susie2pink Call  60.00 150.00 2355.00
    biggs10 Call  60.00 210.00 3565.00
    Jase23 Raise  300.00 510.00 3050.00
    GaryQQQ Fold     
    Merkin Fold     
    susie2pink Fold     
    biggs10 Fold     
    Jase23 Muck     
    Jase23 Win  270.00  3320.00
    Jase23 Return  240.00 0.00 3560.00
  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited February 2012
    I got moved to the button on another table and had to sit out;

    Hand History #485127480 (11:19 28/02/2012)

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    pokaman Small blind  30.00 30.00 1815.00
    cash4othin Big blind  60.00 90.00 14387.50
    GaryQQQ Sit out     
    1spot Call  60.00 150.00 1960.00
    ELFIN24 Fold     
    pokaman Call  30.00 180.00 1785.00
    cash4othin Raise  120.00 300.00 14267.50
    1spot Call  120.00 420.00 1840.00
    pokaman Call  120.00 540.00 1665.00
    Flop
      
    • K
    • 3
    • Q
       
    pokaman All-in  1665.00 2205.00 0.00
    cash4othin Call  1665.00 3870.00 12602.50
    1spot Fold     
    pokaman Show
    • Q
    • 9
       
    cash4othin Show
    • J
    • K
       
    Turn
      
    • 4
       
    River
      
    • 4
       
    cash4othin Win Two Pairs, Kings and 4s 3870.00  16472.50
  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited February 2012
    Then 5 minutes later it happened again. Moved after this;

    Hand History #485128398 (11:24 28/02/2012)

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    GaryQQQ Small blind  30.00 30.00 2235.00
    Merkin Big blind  60.00 90.00 7510.00
     Your hole cards
    • J
    • 7
       
    k_mac Fold     
    susie2pink Fold     
    biggs10 Call  60.00 150.00 3265.00
    GaryQQQ Fold     
    Merkin Check     
    Flop
      
    • K
    • 6
    • 2
       
    Merkin Check     
    biggs10 Bet  150.00 300.00 3115.00
    Merkin Call  150.00 450.00 7360.00
    Turn
      
    • 8
       
    Merkin Check     
    biggs10 Check     
    River
      
    • 5
       
    Merkin Bet  450.00 900.00 6910.00
    biggs10 All-in  3115.00 4015.00 0.00
    Merkin Call  2665.00 6680.00 4245.00
    Merkin Show
    • K
    • K
       
    biggs10 Show
    • 8
    • 8
       
    Merkin Win Three Kings 6680.00  10925.00


    My next hand at another table;

    Hand History #485128732 (11:25 28/02/2012)

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    ELFIN24 Small blind  30.00 30.00 3170.00
    chigwell61 Big blind  60.00 90.00 7840.00
    GaryQQQ Sit out     
    allinmikey Call  60.00 150.00 2560.00
    jgdog Call  60.00 210.00 2645.00
    VK41 Raise  240.00 450.00 2610.00
    ELFIN24 Fold     
    chigwell61 Call  180.00 630.00 7660.00
    allinmikey Fold     
    jgdog Call  180.00 810.00 2465.00
    Flop
      
    • 8
    • 9
    • A
       
    chigwell61 Check     
    jgdog Check     
    VK41 Bet  405.00 1215.00 2205.00
    chigwell61 Fold     
    jgdog Fold     
    VK41 Muck     
    VK41 Win  810.00  3015.00
    VK41 Return  405.00 0.00 3420.00
  • GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,627
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice?:
    Eyeman is correct, the player who has just posted the SB and is due to be on the button next is the player who gets moved 100% of the time. There's a good chance that player will be posting the blinds again almost immediately at their new table. Bizzarely if he/she gets moved to the button on another table they have to sit that hand out, even though that would have been their position for the next hand had they not been moved.  This flaw has been pointed out many times before, hopefully it will be fixed in a future software update.
    Posted by GaryQQQ
    I noticed this in a timed tourney I was in.  There was about a minute to go and I was doing ok, however I ended up being moved to a new table and posting blinds twice - then the game ended! 
  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited February 2012
    I've just played 3 orbits in a row in a tournament without playing a hand on the button due to to table changes, in each orbit I had to post BB and SB.
  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited February 2012
    But it's random, Gary - honest it is :p

    OK< we know it's not. Sky obviously has other priorities.

    As an aside, we know that the BB will be eliminted more than any other seat, so when a player moves to a new table, it is more likely they will be asked to post the blind twice more. Early on, it's no biggie, but later (especially in satellites) it's just rank unfair.

    Yet I have never seen a post in reply to one of these from any of the people who count at Sky saying they're looking at it.

    As I've said before, it must be a 10 minute job to change the software from "always the button" to "always the BB". Why wouldn't they do anyhting?
  • SolarCarroSolarCarro Member Posts: 2,273
    edited February 2012
    Some confusion on this thread so will clarify from DTD rules page, I have played in many casinos in the UK, Ireland and Vegas and have never seen a different policy to this one

    Balancing Tables- In flop games when balancing tables' players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position (which is never the small blind), the table to which a player is moved will be as specified by a predetermined procedure. Play will halt on any table that is at least three players short. In stud games players will be moved by position (the last seat to open up at the short table is the seat to be filled). DTD Tournament policies page

    They move BEFORE posting a BIG BLIND so they never post 2 x BB in quick succession

    When table is broken a card is dealt face up to each player, A high - the highest card goes to Table 1 spare seat, next highest to table 2 etc

    To answer GaryQQQ, you cannot enter straight away sometimes until the button has passed you as this would cause a gap between the button and the small blind, this does occur on Sky sometimes

    Dave


  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited February 2012
    The 3 orbits I just mentioned were no big deal because it was the early stages of a small stakes tournament. However if this were the late stages of a Roller or The Primo it would become a big issue, there's a lot of money on the line and the player involved is put at a big disadvantage to the rest of the field.

    Sky's method of arranging table moves is almost the total opposite of that described in the rule above.
  • bigal36903bigal36903 Member Posts: 1,011
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice?:
    Some confusion on this thread so will clarify from DTD rules page, I have played in many casinos in the UK, Ireland and Vegas and have never seen a different policy to this one Balancing Tables- In flop games when balancing tables' players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position (which is never the small blind), the table to which a player is moved will be as specified by a predetermined procedure. Play will halt on any table that is at least three players short. In stud games players will be moved by position (the last seat to open up at the short table is the seat to be filled). DTD Tournament policies page They move BEFORE posting a BIG BLIND so they never post 2 x BB in quick succession When table is broken a card is dealt face up to each player, A high - the highest card goes to Table 1 spare seat, next highest to table 2 etc To answer GaryQQQ, you cannot enter straight away sometimes until the button has passed you as this would cause a gap between the button and the small blind, this does occur on Sky sometimes Dave
    Posted by SolarCarro


    if this is the case how can i be moved straight after posting blinds and then have to post blinds on the next table, not once but 3 moves after i posted blinds into the blinds
  • SolarCarroSolarCarro Member Posts: 2,273
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice?:
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice? : if this is the case how can i be moved straight after posting blinds and then have to post blinds on the next table, not once but 3 moves after i posted blinds into the blinds
    Posted by bigal36903
    This is a LIVE poker rule, the Tournament Director ensures it happens

    Sky's method is random, all in the programming and as stated above could do with being changed to only move a "next Big Blind"
  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice?:
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice? : Sky's method is random Posted by SolarCarro
    It's not random. The player who has just posted the blinds gets moved 100% of the time.
  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice?:
    In Response to Re: moving table where`s the justice? : This is a LIVE poker rule, the Tournament Director ensures it happens Sky's method is random, all in the programming and as stated above could do with being changed to only move a "next Big Blind"
    Posted by SolarCarro
    FFS, Dave -it's NOT RANDOM /> IT IS ALWAYS THE BUTTON THAT MOVES> Random, we could cope with - being screwed by bad programming, we can't!!
  • SolarCarroSolarCarro Member Posts: 2,273
    edited February 2012
    Its random according to Tikay in this thread started by you!!

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a57795ac2-1793-4377-b4cf-e124b0f555f4Forum%3adf77f82c-151f-4bea-aae1-fb423dcae1faDiscussion%3a26052e45-99fe-48c3-8273-f093bf15dbad

    Quote Tikay

    Thanks Graham.

    In B & M poker, it is always (or should always.....) be the Big Blind that is moved, & they are moved to the worst possible seat on their new Table.

    Generally, in Online Poker it is done randomly, by, I assume (I don't know for sure) the RNG.

    It is true to say that doing it this way, it sometimes disadvantages the moved player. But it would be equally fair to say that it just as often advantages the moved player. Poker players notice when it disadvantages them, & fail to notice when they get a "good" move.

    On balance, it confers no real advantage either way in the longer term. Poker, like life, is not always fair - we don't like it when a really good player is to our immediate left, & our mate, on the next Table, has a table full of not so good players. That's not fair, either, but it's how poker works, really.

    The same debate has raged for years in B & M poker, but really, I don't know why, we just need to ride with the punches, & remember that it cuts both ways, it just as often favours us as it does not.
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