Hi Tikyay, Hope your doing well Just a quick question for you. Every thursday down my local we have a poker night, 12 of us, only small stakes £5 entry. A couple of weeks ago the following happened and just wnat your advice on what we should have done. I'm pretty sure we came to the right out come just hoping you confirm it. We was on the 3rd level of the tournament, preflop theres a raise, a re raise and 2 callers. The dealers burns a card, deals the flop, theres a bet followed by a fold and a call. Dealer deals the turn and to his horror the next burn card is face up. He must have somehow done this when he was shuffling the cards, now what should happen in this situation??? 3 ideas were put forward. 1. Player 1 who had called the bet on the flop, wnated to continue playing, saying both players had seen the card so no advantage was given (the flop had given him trips) 2. Player 2 the guy who bet out on the flop disagreed strongly with this and his idea was the 2 players left in the hand share the chips between them. 3. Player 3 said who had folded on the flop disagreed with both and said all chips should be returned and the hand replayed. This was followed by lots of arguing between the whole table and in particular player 1 and the dealer. In the end much to the annoyance of of player 1 all chips were returned to the players and the hand was replayed. This tilted the guy and about 6 hands later he was out. Was this the correct outcome? Would it be the same outcome if both players had been all in? Should the dealer have been penalised? (only a "friendly" game but would he have been a aproper game) Sorry was suppose to be a quick question Gareth Posted by 35suited
Strewth........
Well, this is "Pub Poker" petronified! Just about everything there would, by conventional Poker Rules & Etiquette, be wrong!
I'll go through it in bite-size pieces, to make the answers more digestable. Like a biscuit, really.
Lets sort two easy things first.
1) The Dealer found that a burn card was face up.
This is called a "box" or "boxed" card. It's not that unusual. The Dealer cannot & must not be berated or penalised for it. He's made a mistake, so be it. Poker players make mistakes - Call with the worst of it & lose - Dealers make mistakes. NEVER harangue the Dealer, & there is NO rule or mechanism to punish him.
2) How do we resolve such disputes?
Universally, we refer to something called "Robert's Rules of Poker", which is produced by Bob (aka Robert) Ciaffone. Just google "Roberts Rules of Poker", it's all there.
This is what those Rules say as to your particular question.
"......A card discovered faceup in the deck (boxed card) will be treated as a meaningless scrap of paper. A card being treated as a scrap of paper will be replaced by the next card below it in the deck,.....
It's that simple.
One more point before we get back to the three options you say were mooted. Someone wanted the hand declared void, someone else did not, da de da. Forget all that - here's the coup. There are numerous ways a hand can be voided, but they are all pre-empted - in this case - by this one.
".....Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands....."
Now, you say all three players were arguing the toss. Well, if they were allowed to, they would, would they not?
But they are NOT allowed to - the decision has nothing to do with them!
How can it? Their view is guaranteed to be biased, to be situation dependent! Tell them to button it, keep quiet, then get the TD across & he will sort it. And if these lads argue, we either disqualify them, or have them shot. We can't have anarchy at the Table.
The Dealer made a mistake, so be it, the world's not perfect. If it meant a guy lost a hand he might have won, well it means the opposite to his oppo, & nobody died. It's just a game.
I hope that covers everything, if not, ask again, or google "Roberts Rules of Poker". Those Rules are accepted almost universally, & the WSOP, TDA, & APAT's Rules are all almost identical to them.
Hi Tikyay, Hope your doing well Just a quick question for you. Every thursday down my local we have a poker night, 12 of us, only small stakes £5 entry. A couple of weeks ago the following happened and just wnat your advice on what we should have done. I'm pretty sure we came to the right out come just hoping you confirm it. We was on the 3rd level of the tournament, preflop theres a raise, a re raise and 2 callers. The dealers burns a card, deals the flop, theres a bet followed by a fold and a call. Dealer deals the turn and to his horror the next burn card is face up. He must have somehow done this when he was shuffling the cards, now what should happen in this situation??? 3 ideas were put forward. 1. Player 1 who had called the bet on the flop, wnated to continue playing, saying both players had seen the card so no advantage was given (the flop had given him trips) 2. Player 2 the guy who bet out on the flop disagreed strongly with this and his idea was the 2 players left in the hand share the chips between them. 3. Player 3 said who had folded on the flop disagreed with both and said all chips should be returned and the hand replayed. This was followed by lots of arguing between the whole table and in particular player 1 and the dealer. In the end much to the annoyance of of player 1 all chips were returned to the players and the hand was replayed. This tilted the guy and about 6 hands later he was out. Was this the correct outcome? Would it be the same outcome if both players had been all in? Should the dealer have been penalised? (only a "friendly" game but would he have been a aproper game) Sorry was suppose to be a quick question Gareth Posted by 35suited
I done this at the Paddy Power open. I was mortified!! My first live tournament. Didn't have a clue what to do, I was shaking like a leaf.
In Response to Re: Ask Tikay? : I done this at the Paddy Power open. I was mortified!! My first live tournament. Didn't have a clue what to do, I was shaking like a leaf. Posted by Ms_Chips
I have to say Cardrunners is the one i was looking at (and the one i recomended as have heard nothing but good things about them) but i didn't know we could mention the names in threads......... As you did it first i'm taking none of the blame lol
Flipped a card whilst dealing. Not exactly the same, however, very embarrassing for a noob. I then proceeded to try gather all the cards back before being told to calm down a bit and relax. Thankfully everyone at the table was very understanding.
However the funniest thing I ever seen at a poker table involved my friend. She was new to the game and really only knew the basics. Anyway she was dealt aces and raised it up and got flatted by TT. after the flop both players had over pairs. She cbet, he shoved, she called, and when she seen his cards she jumped for joyed and starting gathering all the chips making a complete mess stretching over the table. She was then told to calm down relax, still a couple of more cards to see.
Thanks for the reply Tikay, I have to say Cardrunners is the one i was looking at (and the one i recomended as have heard nothing but good things about them) but i didn't know we could mention the names in threads......... As you did it first i'm taking none of the blame lol Posted by ACESOVER8s
It's acknowledged as the best in the workd, & afaic, it's fine to mention it. What we must NOT do on here is put ".com" behind it, or any other, name.
You will struggle to find anyone who has a bad word to say about Cardrunners. I'm not sure if it's still in the Archives somewhere, or on You Tube, but we interviewed the Cardrunners Founders in Vegas last year, or the year before. Nice lads, not one of them looked older than about 11, either.
Flipped a card whilst dealing. Not exactly the same, however, very embarrassing for a noob. I then proceeded to try gather all the cards back before being told to calm down a bit and relax. Thankfully everyone at the table was very understanding. However the funniest thing I ever seen at a poker table involved my friend. She was new to the game and really only knew the basics. Anyway she was dealt aces and raised it up and got flatted by TT. after the flop both players had over pairs. She cbet, he shoved, she called, and when she seen his cards she jumped for joyed and starting gathering all the chips making a complete mess stretching over the table. She was then told to calm down relax, still a couple of more cards to see. Oh Yes Rivered. I couldn't play for laughung. Posted by Ms_Chips
You were Dealing - in the Irish Open? Wow!
As to your friend, well.......
"....starting gathering all the chips making a complete mess stretching over the table...."
I'm afraid she must NEVER touch chips "in the pot", EVEN after she has won the hand - it is the Dealers responsibility to push the chips to her. Touching Pots in the pot is a hideous offence. Think of the carnage - Fiasco? - that could ensue if you mess up the pot.
You must have her hands chopped off immediately, preferably at the knee.
In Response to Re: Ask Tikay? : You were Dealing - in the Irish Open? Wow! As to your friend, well....... "....starting gathering all the chips making a complete mess stretching over the table ...." I'm afraid she must NEVER touch chips "in the pot", EVEN after she has won the hand - it is the Dealers responsibility to push the chips to her. Touching Pots in the pot is a hideous offence. Think of the carnage - Fiasco? - that could ensue if you mess up the pot. You must have her hands chopped off immediately, preferably at the knee. Posted by Tikay10
It wasn't thee Irish Open. It was a chairty event sponsored by PP where the winner won a package to the Irish. So as players we where dealing ourselves. Didn't do to well myself but I met Marc Goodwin.
Yeh her etiquette has improved immensley. T'was so funny but.
In Response to Re: Ask Tikay? : It wasn't thee Irish Open. It was a chairty event sponsored by PP where the winner won a package to the Irish. So as players we where dealing ourselves. Didn't do to well myself but I met Marc Goodwin. Yeh her etiquette has improved immensley. T'was so funny but. Posted by Ms_Chips
Oh, I seeeeeeeee
Did Marc have his silly hat on? I wish I had a little more spare time - I could tell you so many Marc Goodwin stories.
In Response to Re: Ask Tikay? : Oh, I seeeeeeeee Did Marc have his silly hat on? I wish I had a little more spare time - I could tell you so many Marc Goodwin stories. Posted by Tikay10
hi tikay,i see all the seats have gone for luton(and one of them is mine cant wait!!)it says 120 qualified and i know luton have 5 seats and a few celebs but i thought there were 150 in it or is this not true,also is there anywhere i can find the previous nights big tourny info for example last nites primo i wasnt in it but just wanted to have a look and see who won and done well etc,thanks shauny see you in luton Posted by SHAUNY
Hi again Shauny,
As far as I know, Luton will have 150 runners. The Event has a Guarantee of £12,500 I believe, but for every runner, there will be £150 in the Prize Pool, so if it gets 150, the Prize Pool will be £15,000.
I'm not sure what the constituent of 150 is. I know 120 have qualified, there is a Luton Live Super-Sat for 5 seats, 5 seats have been set aside for Poker Journos, there are 8 or 10 Celebs, 2 or three Sky Poker Presenters & Analysts, & one or two "surprise" players.
Look forward to seeing you there!
And remember - you will NOT get in to G-Luton if you are wearing trainers, or sports apparel.
Thank you tikay for taking the time to answer my question I appretiate how busy you are and really didnt expect such an indepth answer, but then i didnt realise just how wrong we were.
In Response to Re: Ask Tikay? : Hi again Shauny, As far as I know, Luton will have 150 runners. The Event has a Guarantee of £12,500 I believe, but for every runner, there will be £150 in the Prize Pool, so if it gets 150, the Prize Pool will be £15,000. I'm not sure what the constituent of 150 is. I know 120 have qualified, there is a Luton Live Super-Sat for 5 seats, 5 seats have been set aside for Poker Journos, there are 8 or 10 Celebs, 2 or three Sky Poker Presenters & Analysts, & one or two "surprise" players. Look forward to seeing you there! And remember - you will NOT get in to G-Luton if you are wearing trainers, or sports apparel. Posted by Tikay10
thanks tikay for taking the time to answer,il see you there mate im staying at hotel so going on the friday,play sum poker few beers,then ready for the big one on the saturday ,only live 40 mins away,but cant be doing with taxis and the hotel was cheap as im staying there with wattspoker and pricy as we live in the same town,prob play the 75 pound freezeout on the friday nite,like i say see you there,hope your having luck on the tables
In Response to Re: Ask Tikay? : thanks tikay for taking the time to answer,il see you there mate im staying at hotel so going on the friday,play sum poker few beers,then ready for the big one on the saturday ,only live 40 mins away,but cant be doing with taxis and the hotel was cheap as im staying there with wattspoker and pricy as we live in the same town,prob play the 75 pound freezeout on the friday nite,like i say see you there,hope your having luck on the tables Posted by SHAUNY
Thanks Shauny. I'll prob play the Friday night £75 Freeze, too.
hi tikay me again i play in a pub league on tuesday nites,last year i won it and got a good pay out we are in week 5 of 13 and im sitting top again well i was up till last nite ,played well early doors did nothing wrong had alot of chips,then moved to another table,came up against a guy i dont like playing as he plays everything i got pocket 7s blinds wer 500 and 1000,i raised to 5000,every one folded apart from this one guy he called.flop came down 4 5 6,i decided to push with my stack of 19000 he had acouple of thousand more than me ,after 5mins of thinking about it he called he turned over ace six,anyway the turn came down an ace and river was queen so it was game over for me,is there anything else i could have done,thinking back maybe if id have put in 8k,then id have seen the ace and maybe got away from it and stayed in the tourny,but i still had open ended straight draws,not sure. any advice would be great cheers tikay shauny
Comments
Well, this is "Pub Poker" petronified! Just about everything there would, by conventional Poker Rules & Etiquette, be wrong!
I'll go through it in bite-size pieces, to make the answers more digestable. Like a biscuit, really.
Lets sort two easy things first.
1) The Dealer found that a burn card was face up.
This is called a "box" or "boxed" card. It's not that unusual. The Dealer cannot & must not be berated or penalised for it. He's made a mistake, so be it. Poker players make mistakes - Call with the worst of it & lose - Dealers make mistakes. NEVER harangue the Dealer, & there is NO rule or mechanism to punish him.
2) How do we resolve such disputes?
Universally, we refer to something called "Robert's Rules of Poker", which is produced by Bob (aka Robert) Ciaffone. Just google "Roberts Rules of Poker", it's all there.
Now, to that box card.
More......
This is what those Rules say as to your particular question.
"......A card discovered faceup in the deck (boxed card) will be treated as a meaningless scrap of paper. A card being treated as a scrap of paper will be replaced by the next card below it in the deck,.....
It's that simple.
One more point before we get back to the three options you say were mooted. Someone wanted the hand declared void, someone else did not, da de da. Forget all that - here's the coup. There are numerous ways a hand can be voided, but they are all pre-empted - in this case - by this one.
".....Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands....."
So, the hand plays out.
But we have not finished yet.....
Now, you say all three players were arguing the toss. Well, if they were allowed to, they would, would they not?
But they are NOT allowed to - the decision has nothing to do with them!
How can it? Their view is guaranteed to be biased, to be situation dependent! Tell them to button it, keep quiet, then get the TD across & he will sort it. And if these lads argue, we either disqualify them, or have them shot. We can't have anarchy at the Table.
The Dealer made a mistake, so be it, the world's not perfect. If it meant a guy lost a hand he might have won, well it means the opposite to his oppo, & nobody died. It's just a game.
I hope that covers everything, if not, ask again, or google "Roberts Rules of Poker". Those Rules are accepted almost universally, & the WSOP, TDA, & APAT's Rules are all almost identical to them.
I have to say Cardrunners is the one i was looking at (and the one i recomended as have heard nothing but good things about them) but i didn't know we could mention the names in threads......... As you did it first i'm taking none of the blame lol
However the funniest thing I ever seen at a poker table involved my friend. She was new to the game and really only knew the basics. Anyway she was dealt aces and raised it up and got flatted by TT. after the flop both players had over pairs. She cbet, he shoved, she called, and when she seen his cards she jumped for joyed and starting gathering all the chips making a complete mess stretching over the table. She was then told to calm down relax, still a couple of more cards to see.
Oh Yes Rivered. I couldn't play for laughung.
You will struggle to find anyone who has a bad word to say about Cardrunners. I'm not sure if it's still in the Archives somewhere, or on You Tube, but we interviewed the Cardrunners Founders in Vegas last year, or the year before. Nice lads, not one of them looked older than about 11, either.
As to your friend, well.......
"....starting gathering all the chips making a complete mess stretching over the table...."
I'm afraid she must NEVER touch chips "in the pot", EVEN after she has won the hand - it is the Dealers responsibility to push the chips to her. Touching Pots in the pot is a hideous offence. Think of the carnage - Fiasco? - that could ensue if you mess up the pot.
You must have her hands chopped off immediately, preferably at the knee.
Yeh her etiquette has improved immensley. T'was so funny but.
Did Marc have his silly hat on? I wish I had a little more spare time - I could tell you so many Marc Goodwin stories.
Was she on Blue Peter, with Rich?
As far as I know, Luton will have 150 runners. The Event has a Guarantee of £12,500 I believe, but for every runner, there will be £150 in the Prize Pool, so if it gets 150, the Prize Pool will be £15,000.
I'm not sure what the constituent of 150 is. I know 120 have qualified, there is a Luton Live Super-Sat for 5 seats, 5 seats have been set aside for Poker Journos, there are 8 or 10 Celebs, 2 or three Sky Poker Presenters & Analysts, & one or two "surprise" players.
Look forward to seeing you there!
And remember - you will NOT get in to G-Luton if you are wearing trainers, or sports apparel.
Thnaks again
Gareth