Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.

ZeroG

So first post on here, so hi to everyone.  Now so people understand where I am coming from I have been playing poker on and off for about 8 years signed up on pokerstar years ago and have played on there on many occassion in both cash and MTT, SNG etc etc etc.

Always had my reservation about playing online yet aftre a frioend said how he had done ok on sky poker I thought I would dip my toe back in at the tail end of last year.  However after tonight it has reenforced why I should have just stayed away.  

Have been called by some proper donks on sky poker tonight.  AK made a straght and went all in in a MTT about 8 BB left so was the right call.  An absolute fish who was about the same stack calls.  9 5 suited.  Now bear in mind this has gone me open betting at 3x then half pot after the flop this donk just is a calling station.  However guess what he makes is flush, hits runner runner.  

AA broke by 72 off tonight. trip 2's

KQ trip K on flop broken by a full house becasue someone plays K2 off.

10 10 broken 5 times tonight even when on 2 occassion hitting trips.

Is it just me this does not feel like real poker.  I have a good understanding about variance, pot odds etc.  Yet these people are just calling wiht absolute rubbish and hitting every single time.  Am I missing something here.  I know you might say my bet sizing is off.  but to give some insight generally when playing I ould go 3-5x pre flop followed by half pot ish followed by numerious different betting patterns depending on flop texture etc from there.

Now I am sure your going to say well this guy has had a bad night and just wants to moan about it.  Thats not the case.  I think I am not that bad a poker player tbh however I do not have the bank roll of some of these poeple, which is always going to restrain me.  But the way these people are playing poker and winning is a joke.  3 hands even 10 hands I can understand however every hand I have played in tonight has gone the same way.  People with absolute rubbish in there hand just calling all the way to the river and making it.  Something just does not feel right.

One question I suppose that come from this is has sky poker had it's RNG (Random number generator) independantly inspected, like I know other sites have. (pokerstar and full tilt).

Becuase something just does not sit right here.  Or is there some weighting system I am not aware of that weights in favour of certain players etc or newer players etc until you get to the higher stakes?

Any sensible answer always welcomed, and if your just wish to be stupid about it by flaming then please do not bother.

Cheers

ZG

Goethe

What level are you playing at? If, like me, you restrict your play to the micro levels then you might as well be playing bingo at times - a combination of novice players starting off at the bottom of the ladder (nothing wrong with that of course) and making calls that seasoned players would shy off of, and the low stakes meaning players flying lots of kites won't suffer any significant financial penalties for doing so, and you have a recipe for variance that's off the Richter Scale.

As for the RNG, I don't think it's "audited" per se (ie someone independent of SkyPoker with the technical ability picking through the code to ensure there aren't any questionable routines built in), but the results over periods of time are statistically tested, ie over 1,000,000 hands the probabilities suggest an expected number of pairs to be dealt, and the actual number analysed to see that it falls within the statistical norms. How robust this analysis is, ie what is examined and what isn't as part of the audit, is an unknown. That's where the trust bit comes in - if you have genuine concerns over the integrity of the underlying software then, I think the short answer is to find somewhere else to play.

How many hands have you played so far on Sky?

devonfish5

hi ZeroG,
Goethe is pretty much spot on imo,the micro levels are/can be a nightmare,i know....i play them.
mtt's i don't play so can't talk about them.
dym's can be beaten at micro and low stakes..i've done it.
the secret for me was to play very tight early on and plenty of tables..as many as 18/20
i've just started playing cash at the nl10 level this week in fact,and i am taking it more seriously this time,after all my earlier attempts have failed. 
i thought i was a 1/2 decent player and could break even from my play and making some small money from c4p,
i y'day posted up some of my worst losing hands from my nights b4 session,and have had some excellent feed back from players here.
my mistakes are very obvious to them and now i've had a look at the hands again,i can fully understand why i had a £33 losing session.
maybe you could post up some hands and get them looked at,i'm not saying that you are playing bad or anything but it's just a thought.
don't know what else to suggest really.
i'm sure there must be a reason why u r struggling atm,even if it is simply variance,but i'm thinking there could be other factors too which when added together isn't going to be good for you.
gl
keep us informed as to what happens next and if things change at all.

dev

JPW33

Reading a lot of posts similar to this is amking me think fish and donk is a compliment !!!!

loololollo

nah i know what you mean theres alot of donks/fish's on skypoker so you have to consider that when a gutshot ect come through on the river

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

nah i know what you mean theres alot of donks/fish's on skypoker so you have to consider that when a gutshot ect come through on the river
Posted by loololollo

lol at the shark here

scouse_red

let's keep it friendly please

ZeroG

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

What level are you playing at? If, like me, you restrict your play to the micro levels then you might as well be playing bingo at times - a combination of novice players starting off at the bottom of the ladder (nothing wrong with that of course) and making calls that seasoned players would shy off of, and the low stakes meaning players flying lots of kites won't suffer any significant financial penalties for doing so, and you have a recipe for variance that's off the Richter Scale. As for the RNG, I don't think it's "audited" per se (ie someone independent of SkyPoker with the technical ability picking through the code to ensure there aren't any questionable routines built in), but the results over periods of time are statistically tested, ie over 1,000,000 hands the probabilities suggest an expected number of pairs to be dealt, and the actual number analysed to see that it falls within the statistical norms. How robust this analysis is, ie what is examined and what isn't as part of the audit, is an unknown. That's where the trust bit comes in - if you have genuine concerns over the integrity of the underlying software then, I think the short answer is to find somewhere else to play. How many hands have you played so far on Sky?
Posted by Goethe

In total I am probably in the 5000 ish hands realm.  This includes hand I have just folded on not just the ones where I have played them out and from the stats I have I see they flop around 10% of the time and to the river around 10% of that when I have the hand so the stats show I am playing pretty tight.  It was just the night in question I wrote everything down and out of 15 hands 10 of them where bad eats imo and even takeing into consideration variance those levels seems to high.  As for the RNG I only question it because of that evening, and with the hands I have seen it make me question it.  If sky have not done already to increase the trust of its people why not put it out to and independant review.  I can even find people for sky to get this done, through my IT contacts.   

ZeroG

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

hi ZeroG, Goethe is pretty much spot on imo,the micro levels are/can be a nightmare,i know....i play them. mtt's i don't play so can't talk about them. dym's can be beaten at micro and low stakes..i've done it. the secret for me was to play very tight early on and plenty of tables..as many as 18/20 i've just started playing cash at the nl10 level this week in fact,and i am taking it more seriously this time,after all my earlier attempts have failed.  i thought i was a 1/2 decent player and could break even from my play and making some small money from c4p, i y'day posted up some of my worst losing hands from my nights b4 session,and have had some excellent feed back from players here. my mistakes are very obvious to them and now i've had a look at the hands again,i can fully understand why i had a £33 losing session. maybe you could post up some hands and get them looked at,i'm not saying that you are playing bad or anything but it's just a thought. don't know what else to suggest really. i'm sure there must be a reason why u r struggling atm,even if it is simply variance,but i'm thinking there could be other factors too which when added together isn't going to be good for you. gl keep us informed as to what happens next and if things change at all. dev
Posted by devonfish5

Thanks for the post.  I like you on that night lost over £30.  But for me the big thing is bankroll.  If you listen to all the pros they all say that bankroll management is one of the biggest parts of the game.  I do not have the money at present to put in £1000's so I have to play low level, to try and build a bank roll.  However a couple of friends of mine who also play on Sky have said the same about moving up levels etc.  I will get some of my hands up here to see what people say.  However in MTT's and when you hace under 10 BB left most people shove which is where I find myself when playing so tight so playing AA with a different strategy than sove all in pre flop and get called and a donk hit runner runner on the turn and river is going to be hard to play against.  I understand that.  My problem is the amount of times it happens.  If you look at poker odd etc, in fact here is one place I have found info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_probability_(Texas_hold_%27em)

When your facing with a pair against a calling station who has a 4% ish chance of hitting runner runner to make is flush or sometimes a straght.  Most people are playing it.  However on the night in question of the 15 hands played 10 where beats I would consider band and 4 of them when of this nature.  thats 40% they are winning on a 4% chance.  As gutting as it is and it is this just seems a little too far outside of the variiance as I understand it.  Hence the post and the question.

ZeroG

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

Reading a lot of posts similar to this is amking me think fish and donk is a compliment !!!!
Posted by JPW33

Reading post like your make me think Troll who does not understand when peole are annoied by the game, and anyway if I am that much of a "fish" or "donk" I don't understand why you would insult me as this just make people leave an already small community within the poker fraternatiy, because surely you would want to play me to win money?  How about you keep your insults to yourself and offer constructive comments rather than insults.  However I look forward to be th "fish" or "donk" on your table one day

ZeroG

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

nah i know what you mean theres alot of donks/fish's on skypoker so you have to consider that when a gutshot ect come through on the river
Posted by loololollo

From my experience at present I would sometime agree.  However if you play like that your never going to win anything if you cannot play your top 10% of hands.  I would be sure that anyone reading this post is not folding AA on a dry board un-connect, yet being unable to read that a donk has played 3 7 off and hits runner runner making a straght.

devonfish5

hi again ZeroG,

ages ago when i 1st began i was playing nl4 cash and breaking even.
one night i played nl10 and lost 7 from 7  all-ins pre-flop when i was holding either QQ KK or AA...
7 in a row.not to mention £70 which was a large part of my b/roll then.
as you can imagine...i wasn't too happy,putting it very mildly.

so ,2 and a bit years on and i'm back playing nl10 again.
this time my b/roll is much bigger,which i have built up mainly from playing £3.30 DYM's.

my point being,i've been where you are now,as have many other players.i've worked hard at building up my b/roll.
don't give up mate.if i can do it...so can you or anyone else for that matter.
it just takes discipline,some effort,patience and good b/roll management.

best of luck

dev

-Dino66-

RNG checking

https://support.skypoker.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/281/~/poker-fairness-policy

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this. : In total I am probably in the 5000 ish hands realm.  This includes hand I have just folded on not just the ones where I have played them out and from the stats I have I see they flop around 10% of the time and to the river around 10% of that when I have the hand so the stats show I am playing pretty tight.  It was just the night in question I wrote everything down and out of 15 hands 10 of them where bad eats imo and even takeing into consideration variance those levels seems to high.  As for the RNG I only question it because of that evening, and with the hands I have seen it make me question it.  If sky have not done already to increase the trust of its people why not put it out to and independant review.  I can even find people for sky to get this done, through my IT contacts.   
Posted by ZeroG

First thing to say is that 5000 hands is a tiny, tiny sample. Too small to be significant in any way. Losing ten out of fifteen hands is therefore obviously completely irrelevant.

If these numbers were to continue over a larger sample then I wouldn't be surprised to see you losing because you're playing far too tight a range. If you're only seeing the flop 10% of the time and only seeing showdown 1% of the time, then I'd say it would be a surprise if you're actually winning as many as 1/3 of those showdowns. Only if you were always playing a really short stack would those showdown numbers be expected to rise, but in that case your tight play would see you losing alot of money regardless of your relatively high showdown numbers because you'd be blinded away.

If you're only seeing the flop with a super-narrow range of hands you make yourself extremely exploitable. Other players know that when you're in the hand, they can see the flop with more speculative hands and stack you on the occasioins that they make two-pair or better because you're not going to lay your overpair down. The times they don't make those strong hands, it's not a problem for them to just fold so you win a small pot.

It sounds very much as though your problems are of your own making and you need to open up your range a bit. If you only play the top 10% of pre-flop hands you're unlikely to ever be profitable. Of course you will suffer bad-beats just like everyone else but you'll also lose hands you perceive as bad beats because your big pre-flop hands are being cracked by players recognising how tight you are.

Playing in MTT's we all have to expect to lose. Even if you were a top player, your edge would not be huge. The same is true of all forms of poker and the edge that top players have is only visible over the course of tens or even hundreds of thousands of hands.

ZeroG

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

RNG checking https://support.skypoker.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/281/~/poker-fairness-policy
Posted by -Dino66-

Thank you for the information.  It just shows that it is not only other that do it. 

JPW33

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this. : Reading post like your make me think Troll who does not understand when peole are annoied by the game, and anyway if I am that much of a "fish" or "donk" I don't understand why you would insult me as this just make people leave an already small community within the poker fraternatiy, because surely you would want to play me to win money?  How about you keep your insults to yourself and offer constructive comments rather than insults.  However I look forward to be th "fish" or "donk" on your table one day
Posted by ZeroG

Wooah hang on zero this was in no way an insult at you or anyone. I am a fish/donk myself. i was trying (and probably badly) that a lot of people have a go about how donks/fish have taken their money so maybe being one is a compliment. Thats all.

wynne1938

Nice read and answers,most of them very sensible,but that is poker !

If it were that easy to win when you gamble,ther would be loads of millionaires out there.

Besides the skill you obtain from playing loads of Poker ,which will give you an edge over others,There is a lot of luck involved.

Try investigating Bio Rhytms and see what happens in this world we live in !

I have been gambling for over 50 years and speak from a bit of experience!

ZeroG

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this. : Wooah hang on zero this was in no way an insult at you or anyone. I am a fish/donk myself. i was trying (and probably badly) that a lot of people have a go about how donks/fish have taken their money so maybe being one is a compliment. Thats all.
Posted by JPW33

In which case please accept my apology.  I miss understood what you where trying to say from the post.

Goethe

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this. : In total I am probably in the 5000 ish hands realm.  This includes hand I have just folded on not just the ones where I have played them out and from the stats I have I see they flop around 10% of the time and to the river around 10% of that when I have the hand so the stats show I am playing pretty tight.  It was just the night in question I wrote everything down and out of 15 hands 10 of them where bad eats imo and even takeing into consideration variance those levels seems to high.  As for the RNG I only question it because of that evening, and with the hands I have seen it make me question it.  If sky have not done already to increase the trust of its people why not put it out to and independant review.  I can even find people for sky to get this done, through my IT contacts.   
Posted by ZeroG

5,000 hands is too small a sample to statiistically analyse and draw any firm conclusions from. As a sub-set of the total number dealt across the site over the period you've been playing, I'd be very surprised if your results fell outside of the statistical norms.

As for independent checking of the RNG, I think the party line from SkyPoker (reiterated by the mods regularly) is that the integrity of the RNG is already "independently certified". Of course, what testing is done as part of the independent certification, and whether there's any subset testing done, is an unknown - probably to most of the staff behind the scenes at SkyPoker as well. It wouldn't surprise me if the only person who did know was the person who's filed a copy of the audit plan, and contract to do it, in the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet somewhere. I may be wrong, and perhaps this information is freely available to everyone who's involved with the running of the site? If that is the case, then to the best of my knowledge it hasn't been made public. There's also the cost consideration - who's going to pay to take up your offer, and why would they want to when they already do (for the same service)? There was a previous thread on a similar subject, but I think it was posted in Area 51 - and so along with all of the aliens it will have been archived on Mars somewhere.

As I've stated above, there's a lot of trust needed if choosing to play any game of chance online, and if you're not happy that you're getting a fair game, the simple answer is to vote with your feet. As someone once said to me when I was young, "if you don't trust someone, why would you do business with them?". A profound piece of advice I think.

Better cards in the future.

JPW33

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this.:

In Response to Re: Been playing 3 weeks on Sky poker and cannot believe this. : In which case please accept my apology.  I miss understood what you where trying to say from the post.
Posted by ZeroG

No problem Zero and my fault for not been clear enough in what I mean. gl at the tables.

ZeroG

Another night another list of bad beats as long as my arm for the site that seems to just keep giving.

in the 10k BH tonight and this is how I go out.

Blinds 25/50 me big blind at 50 with a stack of 1290 againt stacks of over 10K

K 10 off and check to see flop

Flop comes Q/9/J 2 spades one heart so have flopped a straght and am still down on chips so go all in with what I know is the best hand.

Called. by one.

Turn 6c

River Jh

Guy turns over 9 J and has hit a full house on the river.

Thats not the only one:

Sat for 5kBH

in small blind with 2k ish same as most on the table blinds 600/1200

hole cards 10/10

Raise in the small to 1500 villan goes all in with 2150 pre flop so I call

flop comes 5 3 5

turn 5

At this point still ahead by a way

River comes A

Thats 2 in one night but hang on there is more:

10k BH Semi this one 

Blinds - 600/1200

Me UTG + 1

Me A 8 s

Go all in pre flop with about 2800 so 2ish BB

called by 2

flop 4 10 9 rainbow

turn 9

river 2

Villans turn over A 4 and guess what the magic cards 9 10 suited from the BB.

Absolute rubbish.

This is the sort of thing that makes me think there are questiobale things about this site.  While I sucked out on 888, Full Tilt and pokerstar (jokerstars) never like this.  Some real straght things happening if you ask me.  All these hand are the only big ones lost all night which cost me my place in tournements.  So So questionable.