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Diary of a determined player

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    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    (2/2)

    3) This is the one that stings real bad. Made my standard play pre-flop. I guess a few of you might say I could have raised bigger, but that was my standard opening raise and changing at that point would have given away my hand strength. Many callers which led me to check the flop. Lucky turn card for me, and I elect to check. Looking back on it, I feel that is a mistake. The table had been very aggressive so I was trying to slow play which is my natural approach (I know that's wrong, and am trying to get out of that habit).

    Now, when johnnyy calls; he is a player who had been SUPER aggressive with me for well over 30 minutes. He had shoved on me a good 4/5 times whenever I raised. Sadly for me, he never got to showdown so I didn't really know if he was getting lucky with starting hands or just playing extremely loose aggro. At that moment, I was instinctually thinking to shove on the basis that he's (probably) very loose and just unlikely to have better. When nagrom calls also, I hesitate, but still make the shove. I think I just got carried away after hitting the turn card. It was too difficult to get away from given how aggressive, and seemingly loose, the table had been playing.

    I feel like this hand is a complete mess so very open to feedback.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    3265Small blind500.00500.004995.50
    jedinemoBig blind1000.001500.0054686.50
    Your hole cards
    • A
    • Q
    peter27Raise2000.003500.0041323.75
    johnnyyCall2000.005500.0044900.00
    nagromCall2000.007500.0038275.75
    Nicey7Call2000.009500.0040100.00
    3265Fold
    jedinemoFold
    Flop
    • 7
    • 10
    • 4
    peter27Check
    johnnyyCheck
    nagromCheck
    Nicey7Check
    Turn
    • A
    peter27Check
    johnnyyBet9500.0019000.0035400.00
    nagromCall9500.0028500.0028775.75
    Nicey7Fold
    peter27All-in41323.7569823.750.00
    johnnyyAll-in35400.00105223.750.00
    nagromFold
    johnnyyUnmatched bet3576.25101647.503576.25
    peter27Show
    • A
    • Q
    johnnyyShow
    • 10
    • 10
    River
    • 2
    johnnyyWinThree 10s101647.50105223.75
  • Options
    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    1) fold flop.

    2) fold.

    3) Tricky one.
    Feels too tight to fold the turn, but jamming probably only gets rid of hands we beat (apart from maybe specifically AXdd).
    I think call and go to the river, though we're highly likely to be put in a difficult spot there too but at least you might be able to make more of an informed decision.
    Even if you check fold river you still have 30bb behind which is plenty.

  • Options
    jordz16jordz16 Member Posts: 2,253
    i think the first hand depends entirely on your read of the opponent, given he flatted twice pre flop his holding is unlikely to be that strong, plenty of broadways combos, small pairs and suited connectors, he could easily have a 5 and play it that way given you have shown strength pre flop and he may be trying to get it in v an overpair before an action killing card arrives, he also could have a hand such as 910 clubs, kj clubs, 67 etc. which you are beating on that flop. if he has a history of playing his made hands strongly then its an easy fold, if he had been semibluffing/bluffing a lot i think calling down is ok given that you should be way ahead or way behind, but as a default without a strong read then its a fold on the flop for me...

    second hand i think is a standard fold

    third hand i think is perfectly fine pre flop and checking the flop is fine. on the turn i think you should be leading to protect your hand against the many draws and worse Aces, you'd likely have then been raised which would have put you in a tricky spot but one you could have probably found the fold igiven there wouldn't be many bluffs in our opponents range. as played after the call from Nagrom i think you can only call yourself as its likely you are beat, folding would never be bad but id slightly prefer to call and then reevaluate.
  • Options
    FeelGroggyFeelGroggy Member Posts: 824
    edited May 2020
    Peter why are you so utterly convinced that everybody is going so far out there way to bluff you? Considering calling off on the turn here is suicide. How often do you think people are piling 150bb into a pot with nothing? 3 way to the flop as well, with only 6bb committed? In a situation where you have played it strong and look like you have an overpair on the turn. There are very few good turns for you. Let yourself be bluffed sometimes, people are mainly playing very straight forward at your stakes. fwiw you can just check fold 3 way with no backdoor equity, it is allowed. You don't have to always be aggressive because you were the aggressor preflop.

    You would do much better if you stopped being so sticky every hand. Let them bluff you and move on. Also this guy limped preflop so you have a good reason to believe he is a passive player type. Passive player types generally play pretty straight forward on the flop. It is a HUGE leak if you're contesting these spots all the time, which it seems like you are in the hands you send. You are betting and calling a raise in a situation where check fold is perfectly reasonable/ standard way to play the hand. Surely you have found yourself losing the pot very often in these situations, either by calling it off and losing or folding the turn and losing.



    Jordz nailed the other two hands.
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    1) The AQo. I can certainly see the logic on folding on the flop here, but that is effectively just ignoring the note I had on the player (that he was very aggressive) which is what I'm struggling with.

    @jordz16 You said calling down is okay with a strong read, are you including his turn shove when you say that? I guess not.

    @FeelGroggy I do agree that I am too "sticky" and need to get bluffed more. It's something I'm actively working on. In this specific spot, I know he was NOT a passive player. As I said above, when I know someone is aggressive, I am struggling to know when to use that to my advantage, and when to just give it up. Giving it up all the time can't be right, otherwise there's no point me taking notes in the first place. You said "How often do you think people are piling 150bb into a pot with nothing?", and I think the answer is probably a lot more than people realise at this stake level? Several times per tournament you will see people shoving flops with absolutely nothing. It's something I used to do myself a few years back.

    2) The 66. You're all saying fold .. I guess on the basis that he's making that play with either the eight pocket pairs better than me, or AK/AQ. So I'm losing to more than I'm winning against. Agreed.

    3) The AQs. Thanks for the clear assessments. I agree with them. Similar story here to the first hand in that I know this player's aggressive, and that led me to the wrong decision. I realise I'm "not getting bluffed enough". I guess it's my timing that's off in terms of knowing when to show resistance to aggressive players and knowing when to let it go.
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    Q1 2020:
    Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins
    Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins

    Q2 2020:
    Tournaments: 124
    Buy-Ins: £920.63
    Cashes: £1239.92
    FT's: 19
    Wins: 4

    MUKOPS bet with @cal69:


    Finished 59th of 187 in GUKPT #4 6-max if you were wondering.
  • Options
    FeelGroggyFeelGroggy Member Posts: 824
    peter27 said:

    1) The AQo. I can certainly see the logic on folding on the flop here, but that is effectively just ignoring the note I had on the player (that he was very aggressive) which is what I'm struggling with.



    @FeelGroggy I do agree that I am too "sticky" and need to get bluffed more. It's something I'm actively working on. In this specific spot, I know he was NOT a passive player. As I said above, when I know someone is aggressive, I am struggling to know when to use that to my advantage, and when to just give it up. Giving it up all the time can't be right, otherwise there's no point me taking notes in the first place. You said "How often do you think people are piling 150bb into a pot with nothing?", and I think the answer is probably a lot more than people realise at this stake level? Several times per tournament you will see people shoving flops with absolutely nothing. It's something I used to do myself a few years back.

    Folding Ace Queen with no back-doors is hardly giving up all the time though is it, in fact it is much closer to giving up none of the time if you're calling it.
    A flop raise and turn pile is not the same as someone piling a flop facing a bet.
    People are aggressive in many different ways, you need to see what hands showdown and make more specific notes in which ways/ situations they are aggressive to adjust better to them. Having a note that someone is aggressive isn't specific enough or super useful. You could have @MattBates marked as aggressive and also have a complete whale marked as aggressive, but you certainly wouldn't play a similar strategy against them.

    You did not want to raise call AQo for 17bb(ish) bb preflop for a bounty, nor did you want to jam KQo for 13bb bvb. However you do want to bet call a 21bb raise out of position vs an aggressive player with a hand that turns very poorly and also thought about calling turn for over 100bb more. There is a pretty big discrepancy in how you treat blinds preflop and postflop. Maybe you're being over-loose with them because your deeper-stacked and feel like you have heaps and when you get shallow and closer to the threat of elimination you're not loose enough.

    I would suggest your game and results would improve if you loosened up a bit preflop and learned some decent push fold ranges (especially push ranges) and toned it down with contesting vs raises postflop too light and calling off rivers in bad spots like vs hhyftrftdr. Try and get better notes/ reads on the people you're playing based on what shows down. Also while getting feedback on specific spots is useful, make sure you are thinking about poker in the right way whilst at the tables.

    This will likely be my stance on your game for a while, so I probably won't pop up here for a bit. GL at the tables.


  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634

    peter27 said:

    1) The AQo. I can certainly see the logic on folding on the flop here, but that is effectively just ignoring the note I had on the player (that he was very aggressive) which is what I'm struggling with.



    @FeelGroggy I do agree that I am too "sticky" and need to get bluffed more. It's something I'm actively working on. In this specific spot, I know he was NOT a passive player. As I said above, when I know someone is aggressive, I am struggling to know when to use that to my advantage, and when to just give it up. Giving it up all the time can't be right, otherwise there's no point me taking notes in the first place. You said "How often do you think people are piling 150bb into a pot with nothing?", and I think the answer is probably a lot more than people realise at this stake level? Several times per tournament you will see people shoving flops with absolutely nothing. It's something I used to do myself a few years back.

    Folding Ace Queen with no back-doors is hardly giving up all the time though is it, in fact it is much closer to giving up none of the time if you're calling it.
    A flop raise and turn pile is not the same as someone piling a flop facing a bet.
    People are aggressive in many different ways, you need to see what hands showdown and make more specific notes in which ways/ situations they are aggressive to adjust better to them. Having a note that someone is aggressive isn't specific enough or super useful. You could have @MattBates marked as aggressive and also have a complete whale marked as aggressive, but you certainly wouldn't play a similar strategy against them.

    You did not want to raise call AQo for 17bb(ish) bb preflop for a bounty, nor did you want to jam KQo for 13bb bvb. However you do want to bet call a 21bb raise out of position vs an aggressive player with a hand that turns very poorly and also thought about calling turn for over 100bb more. There is a pretty big discrepancy in how you treat blinds preflop and postflop. Maybe you're being over-loose with them because your deeper-stacked and feel like you have heaps and when you get shallow and closer to the threat of elimination you're not loose enough.

    I would suggest your game and results would improve if you loosened up a bit preflop and learned some decent push fold ranges (especially push ranges) and toned it down with contesting vs raises postflop too light and calling off rivers in bad spots like vs hhyftrftdr. Try and get better notes/ reads on the people you're playing based on what shows down. Also while getting feedback on specific spots is useful, make sure you are thinking about poker in the right way whilst at the tables.

    This will likely be my stance on your game for a while, so I probably won't pop up here for a bit. GL at the tables.


    My comment about "giving up all the time" was to illustrate the point that I'm not clear on when to use my notes and when to ignore them based on feedback I have had thus far. Clearly a sample size of one does not represent "giving up all the time".

    But, you do make an excellent point about the notes being more specific, and I agree with your assessment of how I can improve my game - particularly contesting raises too light post-flop and calling off in bad spots.

    Thanks for the feedback and good luck at the tables. Hopefully when you come back you'll see some of my hands and notice an improvement. I am working hard towards that. Cheers!
  • Options
    MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118

    peter27 said:

    1) The AQo. I can certainly see the logic on folding on the flop here, but that is effectively just ignoring the note I had on the player (that he was very aggressive) which is what I'm struggling with.



    @FeelGroggy I do agree that I am too "sticky" and need to get bluffed more. It's something I'm actively working on. In this specific spot, I know he was NOT a passive player. As I said above, when I know someone is aggressive, I am struggling to know when to use that to my advantage, and when to just give it up. Giving it up all the time can't be right, otherwise there's no point me taking notes in the first place. You said "How often do you think people are piling 150bb into a pot with nothing?", and I think the answer is probably a lot more than people realise at this stake level? Several times per tournament you will see people shoving flops with absolutely nothing. It's something I used to do myself a few years back.

    Folding Ace Queen with no back-doors is hardly giving up all the time though is it, in fact it is much closer to giving up none of the time if you're calling it.
    A flop raise and turn pile is not the same as someone piling a flop facing a bet.
    People are aggressive in many different ways, you need to see what hands showdown and make more specific notes in which ways/ situations they are aggressive to adjust better to them. Having a note that someone is aggressive isn't specific enough or super useful. You could have @MattBates marked as aggressive and also have a complete whale marked as aggressive, but you certainly wouldn't play a similar strategy against them.

    You did not want to raise call AQo for 17bb(ish) bb preflop for a bounty, nor did you want to jam KQo for 13bb bvb. However you do want to bet call a 21bb raise out of position vs an aggressive player with a hand that turns very poorly and also thought about calling turn for over 100bb more. There is a pretty big discrepancy in how you treat blinds preflop and postflop. Maybe you're being over-loose with them because your deeper-stacked and feel like you have heaps and when you get shallow and closer to the threat of elimination you're not loose enough.

    I would suggest your game and results would improve if you loosened up a bit preflop and learned some decent push fold ranges (especially push ranges) and toned it down with contesting vs raises postflop too light and calling off rivers in bad spots like vs hhyftrftdr. Try and get better notes/ reads on the people you're playing based on what shows down. Also while getting feedback on specific spots is useful, make sure you are thinking about poker in the right way whilst at the tables.

    This will likely be my stance on your game for a while, so I probably won't pop up here for a bit. GL at the tables.


    Boom, @FeelGroggy doesn't think I am a COMPLETE whale!
  • Options
    MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    A few comments

    You need to look at the stories being told more during hands and throughout a tournament. Eg How aggro is someone, is it blind aggression, aggressive with draws.

    So a "very aggressive player" has a load of dead money in front of them and flats the button. Seems great spot for them to be iso raising so we have some help in looking at their range. They do however then explode into life post flop. If we had say tens then I think its a really hard spot. Given your range should include lots of strong holdings, do you think they are trying to blast you off aces or kings?

    Think about the story you have told with your hand and image. They then decide to raise you on this flop. Best we are hoping for is a flush draw but they may not raise just a flush draw so its more likely a combo draw like 67cc. Can easily be we are drawing basically dead. We don't block any draws either. We can be aggressive pre and c bet give up or not c bet some flops.

    I think its rare that someone would blast off randomly without some equity in a spot like this. It can happen but we need to go with what typically happens and adjust for specific reads rather than call wide in case they are randomly blasting away.
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    MattBates said:

    A few comments

    You need to look at the stories being told more during hands and throughout a tournament. Eg How aggro is someone, is it blind aggression, aggressive with draws.

    So a "very aggressive player" has a load of dead money in front of them and flats the button. Seems great spot for them to be iso raising so we have some help in looking at their range. They do however then explode into life post flop. If we had say tens then I think its a really hard spot. Given your range should include lots of strong holdings, do you think they are trying to blast you off aces or kings?

    Think about the story you have told with your hand and image. They then decide to raise you on this flop. Best we are hoping for is a flush draw but they may not raise just a flush draw so its more likely a combo draw like 67cc. Can easily be we are drawing basically dead. We don't block any draws either. We can be aggressive pre and c bet give up or not c bet some flops.

    I think its rare that someone would blast off randomly without some equity in a spot like this. It can happen but we need to go with what typically happens and adjust for specific reads rather than call wide in case they are randomly blasting away.

    Certainly can't fault this and I understand everything you've said. I suppose the difficulty is the ability to think this all through in the circa eight seconds of time that Sky gives. :#
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    MUKOPS 39, another tournament where I had a massive stack in the early stages, but didn't manage to cash. Sigh.

    AQ seems to be a hand that's consistently getting me into trouble, two examples below:

    1) Never did feel comfortable making this call, but he's shoving 13 BB's so his range will be wider than usual. Should I have folded here? I think I played it correctly, just looking for some validation I suppose. Worth noting that it was a BH.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    jimmytoonSmall blind500.00500.0013425.00
    redyellowBig blind1000.001500.0069570.84
    Your hole cards
    • A
    • Q
    u_owe_meFold
    RossckooFold
    peter27Raise2500.004000.0028447.08
    Dave488Fold
    jimmytoonAll-in13425.0017425.000.00
    redyellowFold
    peter27Call11425.0028850.0017022.08
    jimmytoonShow
    • 3
    • 3
    peter27Show
    • A
    • Q
    Flop
    • 8
    • 5
    • 5
    Turn
    • 9
    River
    • 4
    jimmytoonWinTwo Pairs, 5s and 3s28850.0028850.00
    2) This was an interesting one, I'm not sure what you guys will think. My logic for the shove was that based on the range of a button min raise, and a SB flat, I'm more than likely ahead - and I wanted to avoid seeing a flop to prevent them improving. Now that I have more time to think about it, I guess I'm only ever being called by worse. However, I don't really want to be 3-betting to 7500 which is such a significant portion of my stack. Hmmm. I don't know what was correct here.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    RossckooSmall blind600.00600.0075936.59
    peter27Big blind1200.001800.0019322.08
    Your hole cards
    • A
    • Q
    Dave488Fold
    jimmytoonFold
    redyellowFold
    u_owe_meRaise2400.004200.0035875.00
    RossckooCall1800.006000.0074136.59
    peter27All-in19322.0825322.080.00
    u_owe_meFold
    RossckooCall18122.0843444.1656014.51
    RossckooShow
    • 7
    • 7
    peter27Show
    • A
    • Q
    Flop
    • 8
    • K
    • 6
    Turn
    • 5
    River
    • 7
    RossckooWinThree 7s43444.1699458.67
  • Options
    goldnballzgoldnballz Member Posts: 2,789
    1) Easy call
    2) Easy jam

    Gotta win them flips :)
  • Options
    MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    Both seem very standard hands.
    If you win the flip would you post? If you get folds would you post? If opponent called with kq/AJ would you post? All are just as likely to happen.
    All we can do is make the right plays vs our opponents range of hands.
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634

    Gotta win them flips :)

    So I am starting to get my head around that concept and linking it with my inability to go deep in tournaments, even with a massive stack. What I'm learning is that as the play progresses, you get your chips all-in much more often, and then it's down to luck. I just finished 20th in the mini out of over 1000, and still feel very disappointed to be honest. From the final 50, it felt like I was just getting lucky by flipping rather than actually having any skill! But, what I have learned tells me this is correct (I think?), it just feels a bit .. rubbish?

    Curious to know what you guys have as your shoving range when around the 25BB level from the CO in the late stages of an MTT (let's say 30 left, and you're sat in 20th).

    I won my MUKOPS bet with @cal69, and now we started another one for mini events until the end of May. 20th place today has seen me get off to a great start.

    Q1 2020:
    Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins
    Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins

    Q2 2020:
    Tournaments: 144
    Buy-Ins: £1043.30
    Cashes: £1347.14
    FT's: 19
    Wins: 4
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    edited May 2020
    Bubbled out of a Turbo Bounty Hunter this evening. Was this shove wrong on the bubble, or maybe at any time?
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    peter27Small blind600.00600.0022530.00
    RCL1Big blind1200.001800.0028440.00
    Your hole cards
    • 7
    • A
    nikki1974Fold
    andrew1427Fold
    scotty77Fold
    peter27All-in22530.0024330.000.00
    RCL1Call21930.0046260.006510.00
    peter27Show
    • 7
    • A
    RCL1Show
    • 10
    • 10
    Flop
    • 3
    • 7
    • 10
    Turn
    • A
    River
    • 9
    RCL1WinThree 10s46260.0052770.00
    Q1 2020:
    Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins
    Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins

    Q2 2020:
    Tournaments: 150
    Buy-Ins: £1076.30
    Cashes: £1354.17
    FT's: 19
    Wins: 4
  • Options
    goldnballzgoldnballz Member Posts: 2,789
    with around 20BB, you're probably in decent shape in this tournament (turbo BH?), so it looks very unnecessary to me. If you cover him its slightly different....

    I can't help but think of the KQ hand a few pages ago where you were struggling to see how KQ was a clear shove bvb for 12bb or so, but here you're shoving 19BB bvb A7o & you're the one at risk here
  • Options
    goldnballzgoldnballz Member Posts: 2,789
    peter27 said:

    Gotta win them flips :)

    So I am starting to get my head around that concept and linking it with my inability to go deep in tournaments, even with a massive stack. What I'm learning is that as the play progresses, you get your chips all-in much more often, and then it's down to luck. I just finished 20th in the mini out of over 1000, and still feel very disappointed to be honest. From the final 50, it felt like I was just getting lucky by flipping rather than actually having any skill! But, what I have learned tells me this is correct (I think?), it just feels a bit .. rubbish?

    Curious to know what you guys have as your shoving range when around the 25BB level from the CO in the late stages of an MTT (let's say 30 left, and you're sat in 20th).

    I won my MUKOPS bet with @cal69, and now we started another one for mini events until the end of May. 20th place today has seen me get off to a great start.

    Q1 2020:
    Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins
    Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins

    Q2 2020:
    Tournaments: 144
    Buy-Ins: £1043.30
    Cashes: £1347.14
    FT's: 19
    Wins: 4
    personally, im not open shoving any hands 25BB deep in the cutoff. Min raise is fine.


    I'd normally be getting down to 15-16bb before i'm looking to jam. In a non-bounty on sky poker you could even go a lot lower than this
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    edited May 2020

    with around 20BB, you're probably in decent shape in this tournament (turbo BH?), so it looks very unnecessary to me. If you cover him its slightly different....

    I can't help but think of the KQ hand a few pages ago where you were struggling to see how KQ was a clear shove bvb for 12bb or so, but here you're shoving 19BB bvb A7o & you're the one at risk here

    It was a turbo bounty hunter.

    I'm not really sure that's a good comparison. You're right, but I have also intentionally adapted my game since then so a mindset adjustment since hands previously posted should be expected.

    I have gotten a lot more aggressive in the later stages (20-30 BB mark) with the aim of being one of the bigger stacks as we approach the FT - as the A7 hands shows. Perhaps I have gone too far the other way now though i.e. too aggressive. I need to find the balance. :#
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    Q1 2020:
    Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins
    Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins

    Q2 2020:
    Tournaments: 168
    Buy-Ins: £1173.09
    Cashes: £1460.51
    FT's: 19
    Wins: 4

    ITM % has been quite low recently.
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