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Effects Of Brexit.

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  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 9,143
    You are sidestepping my point.

    WTO Rules are not as pervasive as people assume. Simply because, amazingly, there is no clear definition as to what constitutes an "export".

    It is not as simple as people assume. When goods are transferred from 1 sovereign state to another, ordinarily that counts as an export (although not always).

    But when it is a transfer between different constituent parts of the same country, then sometimes that counts as an export. And sometimes it does not. And, remarkably, whether 1 or both constituent regions are in or out of the EU does not seem to matter.

    So-you get the faintly ridiculous trading arrangements with, say Greenland. It left the EU in order to refuse to comply with the common fisheries policy. It is not part of the EU for that purpose. It's territorial fishing rights are not subject to the same rules. It's trade is not subject to the same rules, as that is outside of the EU. Except when it comes to the import and export of goods, when, miraculously, everyone pretends it is still in the EU. Same for freedom of movement.

    So-Greenlandic and outside the EU half the time, Danish and in when it suits.

    And this "no land border" bit is irrelevant. 90+% of its exports are fish. Which, last time I checked, aren't big on land borders.

    It is not only Denmark, with its special rules for the non-EU Greenland and Faeroes. There are also special rules for just about everywhere else, which has parts both inside and outside the EU. France, Germany, Spain, Portugal-even the UK, where some UK bases in Cyprus are allowed to pretend they are in the EU.

    The natural border in relation to trade is the whole of the island of Ireland. The UK, Ireland and the EU should be organising how goods can flow freely throughout Ireland without being exported to the rest of the EU. As opposed to just blaming the UK all the time.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    Essexphil said:

    You are sidestepping my point.

    WTO Rules are not as pervasive as people assume. Simply because, amazingly, there is no clear definition as to what constitutes an "export".

    It is not as simple as people assume. When goods are transferred from 1 sovereign state to another, ordinarily that counts as an export (although not always).

    But when it is a transfer between different constituent parts of the same country, then sometimes that counts as an export. And sometimes it does not. And, remarkably, whether 1 or both constituent regions are in or out of the EU does not seem to matter.

    So-you get the faintly ridiculous trading arrangements with, say Greenland. It left the EU in order to refuse to comply with the common fisheries policy. It is not part of the EU for that purpose. It's territorial fishing rights are not subject to the same rules. It's trade is not subject to the same rules, as that is outside of the EU. Except when it comes to the import and export of goods, when, miraculously, everyone pretends it is still in the EU. Same for freedom of movement.

    So-Greenlandic and outside the EU half the time, Danish and in when it suits.

    And this "no land border" bit is irrelevant. 90+% of its exports are fish. Which, last time I checked, aren't big on land borders.

    It is not only Denmark, with its special rules for the non-EU Greenland and Faeroes. There are also special rules for just about everywhere else, which has parts both inside and outside the EU. France, Germany, Spain, Portugal-even the UK, where some UK bases in Cyprus are allowed to pretend they are in the EU.

    The natural border in relation to trade is the whole of the island of Ireland. The UK, Ireland and the EU should be organising how goods can flow freely throughout Ireland without being exported to the rest of the EU. As opposed to just blaming the UK all the time.

    I am not sidestepping any points.
    What the UK is sidestepping is the agreement we signed up to.
    If we dont have to have a border, why on earth do we have one?
    Why dont we just remove it?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    UK's new PM Truss wants negotiated solution on N.Ireland protocol



    In his first remarks as Britain's new Northern Ireland minister, Chris Heaton-Harris said earlier that he believed that there is a "fairly obvious landing zone" for an agreement.

    Britain's junior minister for the region, Conor Burns, also told parliament that he had "constructive and prolonged talks" with the EU's post-Brexit negotiator, European Commissioner Maros Sefcovic, at a conference last weekend.

    Sefcovic told the British-Irish Association that Brussels has been calling for almost a year for London to engage with it on proposals it made to simplify the trade rules and that this offer still stood for the new government.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/uk-s-new-pm-truss-wants-negotiated-solution-on-n-ireland-protocol/ar-AA11yNud?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=2798e5f5f1af4752be2fee6df2103789
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    Backlash as arch-Brexiteer appointed to Northern Ireland Office



    Liz Truss has been accused of sending a “destructive message” to the EU by handing arch-Brexiteer Steve Baker a ministerial role in the Northern Ireland Office.

    The decision was branded “obnoxious” and a “red flag” by SDLP MP Claire Hanna, as she claimed Ms Truss appeared to be “continuing down the diplomatically ignorant route of her predecessor”.

    Mr Baker, who organised the Brexiteer revolt that ultimately brought down Theresa May, has described the Northern Ireland Protocol as “a thorn in the side of relations between us and Ireland”.

    He has supported the Government’s controversial proposed reforms to the post-Brexit treaty, which have exacerbated tensions with the EU.

    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/backlash-arch-brexiteer-appointed-northern-180313577.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    White House warns Truss over efforts to ‘undo’ Northern Ireland protocol



    The White House was taken by surprise by Truss’s announcement in May, when she was foreign secretary, that the government would proceed with legislation that would rewrite parts of the protocol, in a manner widely considered to be a breach of international law. Boris Johnson had assured the Biden team that no decision had been taken.

    The legislation is winding its way through parliament and the US has warned the government not to put it to a vote or risk rupture with both the US and EU.

    The tension was evident in pointed differences between the official accounts of the Truss-Biden phone call. The Downing Street version said they had “agreed on the importance of protecting the Belfast (Good Friday) agreement”.

    The White House readout said they “discussed their shared commitment to protecting the gains of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the importance of reaching a negotiated agreement with the European Union on the Northern Ireland protocol”.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/white-house-warns-truss-over-efforts-to-undo-northern-ireland-protocol/ar-AA11zz8L?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=8f1a98d57649415faaf4837f6724d0fc
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    Essexphil said:

    None of this is true in the actual world we live in.

    Greenland left the EU because it refused to abide by EU fishing quotas.
    It does not abide by EU Law, yet retains lots of rights, such as freedom of movement, both to Denmark and the wider European Union.

    Trade barriers? None. 92.7% of exports go to the EU. Most of it is the fish that caused them to leave the EU in the first place. No border between 2 distinct customs territories. No rules whatsoever.

    Trade barriers on our side of the border with Ireland? None. Irish people free to live and work here. Free movement of goods on our side of the border.

    The EU most certainly have not "bent over backwards". Compare & contrast checks on Northern Ireland with every other territory where only part of a country is in the EU.

    There has to be a border. But there does not have to be friction.

    The amount of friction was within our control.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    edited September 2022
    Essexphil said:

    Here is a heartwarming story.
    About the EU picking on the Welsh Charity sector.
    Surprised you haven't highlighted this :)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62799594

    Brussels offers to reduce border controls in Northern Ireland

    In this regard, he has indicated that physical checks would only be carried out in the case of "reasonable suspicion of illegal trade, smuggling, illegal drugs, dangerous toys or poisoned food". This would mean that controls would be reduced to a "couple of trucks a day".




    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/brussels-offers-to-reduce-border-controls-in-northern-ireland/ar-AA11IDD1?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=646a484414e2475ba8fa5cf915c67867
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    Essexphil said:

    Here is a heartwarming story.
    About the EU picking on the Welsh Charity sector.
    Surprised you haven't highlighted this :)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62799594

    Brexit: UK tells EU it will extend grace periods on Northern Ireland border checks


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-uk-tells-eu-it-will-extend-grace-periods-on-northern-ireland-border-checks/ar-AA11RGjD?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5a9f67b2395943cd8f85403587f7543a
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    Essexphil said:

    Here is a heartwarming story.
    About the EU picking on the Welsh Charity sector.
    Surprised you haven't highlighted this :)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62799594

    Brexit failure: Liz Truss admits talks with US on free trade deal will not resume for years


    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/liz-truss-admits-talks-us-050045502.html
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 9,143
    HAYSIE said:

    Brexit failure: Liz Truss admits talks with US on free trade deal will not resume for years


    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/liz-truss-admits-talks-us-050045502.html
    This is in no way a "Brexit failure".

    It is certainly true to say that various people were talking pony when they claimed a deal with the US would be easy once we left the EU.

    The EU have been trying and failing to get a trade deal with the US since before our Referendum. In reality, a lot of trade between the 2 is on modified WTO Rules. There has been so little progress made between the 2 that negotiations were formally scrapped in 2019.

    In reality, the US could not politically sanction a UK deal without a EU deal, and vice versa. Neither are remotely close.

    So-if we were still in the EU, we would be in exactly the same position as we are in now.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    UK considers joining new ‘European political community’


    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/uk-considers-joining-european-political-123514665.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    Essexphil said:

    This is in no way a "Brexit failure".

    It is certainly true to say that various people were talking pony when they claimed a deal with the US would be easy once we left the EU.

    The EU have been trying and failing to get a trade deal with the US since before our Referendum. In reality, a lot of trade between the 2 is on modified WTO Rules. There has been so little progress made between the 2 that negotiations were formally scrapped in 2019.

    In reality, the US could not politically sanction a UK deal without a EU deal, and vice versa. Neither are remotely close.

    So-if we were still in the EU, we would be in exactly the same position as we are in now.
    As you say, we would have been aware of the difficulties in negotiating a USA trade deal, through our experience in the EU.
    Yet during the referendum campaign many prominent Brexiteers ignored these difficulties, and sold the electorate on the fact that a USA deal would be easy soon after we left.
    They claimed that this deal would far outweigh any small amount of trade that we might have lost with the EU.
    So in those terms it can be seen as a "Brexit failure", and just another instance of the public being conned.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 9,143
    These aren't "Brexit Immigration Rules". They are the UK's own Immigration Rules, which we are (in theory) free to alter in response to the UK's needs, rather than just the EU.

    That should be a massive advantage. Unfortunately, this Government is so busy pandering to the Right of the Party on an anti-immigration stance, that this potential advantage is (at least for now) non-existent.

    We need to stop the rhetoric demonising people who want to come here to work. We need to have a coherent strategy as to how to compete against the EU for certain workers. The ones that we need. And we need to be up-front with potential Employers, because they need to be able to plan. It's not a secret, for goodness sake.

    This is not "Brexit's" fault. It is the fault of a Government that is failing to adapt to changing circumstances.

    Brexit should, like any major change, involve both advantages and disadvantages. But it is this Government that is both ignoring the disadvantages and failing to capitalise on the advantages.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 38,505
    Essexphil said:

    These aren't "Brexit Immigration Rules". They are the UK's own Immigration Rules, which we are (in theory) free to alter in response to the UK's needs, rather than just the EU.

    That should be a massive advantage. Unfortunately, this Government is so busy pandering to the Right of the Party on an anti-immigration stance, that this potential advantage is (at least for now) non-existent.

    We need to stop the rhetoric demonising people who want to come here to work. We need to have a coherent strategy as to how to compete against the EU for certain workers. The ones that we need. And we need to be up-front with potential Employers, because they need to be able to plan. It's not a secret, for goodness sake.

    This is not "Brexit's" fault. It is the fault of a Government that is failing to adapt to changing circumstances.

    Brexit should, like any major change, involve both advantages and disadvantages. But it is this Government that is both ignoring the disadvantages and failing to capitalise on the advantages.


    If only the Tories had a plan.
    Many people voted for Brexit in order to end freedom of movement.
    Therefore opening the doors will be foolishly seen by enthusiastic Leave voters, as a u-turn.
    The way in which some industries were likely to struggle as a result was ignored.
    The industries that have struggled the most are those that offer the poorest rates of pay.
    This could be addressed by improving pay and conditions, but that seems unlikely.
    Many Brits refuse to accept menial, lowly paid jobs.

    Immigration seems to be a very touchy subject.

    The first step towards solving this problem will be to come up with a plan that actually works.
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