We dont really need to get a good handle on their range, as long as we are understanding that pretty much 99% of the time if somebody is betting £8.66 into a £2.40 pot, you are beat with AT.
The 1% comes from when they are on total complete monkey tilt.
Some players that appear "spashy" are just going to be playing a loose aggro game, this does not mean to say they are going to make horribad plays like betting 4x the pot without a hand thats good most of the time.
As you have found out to your cost, it can be difficult to put them on hands.
Although thinking a bit more, I dont really like villains shove a whole lot either. They have made it clear they have a king or better. I cant see a lot of players calling with a worse hand.
JJ, bet the flop, then again on the turn. From the turn onwards Tintin will generally let you know if your beat.
exactly it doesn't make sense, checked all streets and now putting them bet into a £2 pot, why would you do that with a king and kill your value? well I don't think 99% of the time its a K, once again you couldn't possiably comment as you don't have a clue what this player tendencies are .....
Careful, I didnt say 99% of the time its a King, I said 99% of the time you are beat imo.
So thats 44/66/TT/Kx
I agree it doesnt make much sense. Imo neither of your plays make much sense at any point in this hand.
But the simple fact of the matter, and key point, is why would they bluff £8.66 at a £2.40pot? They wouldnt, its totally insane. Is shoving in a King insane? well no, but its far from optimal.
Although, hang on, you called. Maybe it was optimal in this instance.
So you asked why would "he kill all his value" He didnt - you called!
He got maximum value
Funny old game......
"once again you couldn't possiably comment as you don't have a clue what this player tendencies are ....."
Come on, do me a lemon, anybody can see your beat.
Maybe if you checked and he shipped you might be good, but even thats clutching at straws. The fact you showed an interest on the river (a pot sized one at that) and he shoved. Alarm bells, no?
Careful, I didnt say 99% of the time its a King, I said 99% of the time you are beat imo. So thats 44/66/TT/Kx I agree it doesnt make much sense. Imo neither of your plays make much sense at any point in this hand. But the simple fact of the matter, and key point, is why would they bluff £8.66 at a £2.40pot? They wouldnt, its totally insane. Is shoving in a King insane? well no, but its far from optimal. Although, hang on, you called. Maybe it was optimal in this instance. So you asked why would "he kill all his value" He didnt - you called! He got maximum value Funny old game...... "once again you couldn't possiably comment as you don't have a clue what this player tendencies are ....." Come on, do me a lemon, anybody can see your beat. Maybe if you checked and he shipped you might be good, but even thats clutching at straws. The fact you showed an interest on the river (a pot sized one at that) and he shoved. Alarm bells, no? Thats an insta fold and high five the cat moment. Posted by calcalfold
Wow poker is such an easy game, I needed a smart **** who plays 4nl to tell me how easy it is and now Iv finally it it so now I can't ever make a mistake.... Jog on cal
In Response to Re: ONE TIME!.....another diary. : Wow poker is such an easy game, I needed a smart **** who plays 4nl to tell me how easy it is and now Iv finally it it so now I can't ever make a mistake.... Jog on cal Posted by robbie1992
You have your opinion he has his opinion.
If you don't want hands commented on don't post them.
If you disagree, brilliant, but dont start abusing people.
And Calc plays at the 10 nl, have no idea if he still plays 4nl or not. And no matter where he plays, whether its 4nl or 50nl does not make a difference to the fact that people can still give you good feedback on hands.
No Larson it's nothing to do with u its my diary i say what i want,why come all the way to my diary just to say unhelpful things in a rude way. So many people give great feedback in a positive way like dev, liamboi, lambert, benc etc and people like him ruin it by being so rude. I wanna improve by learning from better players explaining things to me, not by hm say I'm losing 99% of the time and saying "wtf "..... Who does that comment help?
No Larson it's nothing to do with u its my diary i say what i want,why come all the way to my diary just to say unhelpful things in a rude way. So many people give great feedback in a positive way like dev, liamboi, lambert, benc etc and people like him ruin it by being so rude. I wanna improve by learning from better players explaining things to me, not by hm say I'm losing 99% of the time and saying "wtf "..... Who does that comment help? People like him ruin the good people in forums. Posted by robbie1992
You post on a public forum, people will comment.
I never said anything "unhelpful in a rude way", i told you to stop abusing people.
And no bud, you can't say what you want when you are insulting people.
In Response to Re: ONE TIME!.....another diary. : Wow poker is such an easy game, I needed a smart **** who plays 4nl to tell me how easy it is and now Iv finally it it so now I can't ever make a mistake.... Jog on cal Posted by robbie1992
Grow up mate. Thats not needed. He wouldnt be posting on here if he wasn't trying to help.
Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make you right and visa versa. Forums like this are where people are able to express their opinions, whether you think they are right or wrong, even if it is on 'your diary'. You post a hand to be critiqued and aren't happy with the response... why post it then?
If you don't agree with him fair enough, but he's put thought into his argument and the least you could do is respect it.
And yes... it is clear you are beat. Wondering why you didnt c bet the flop or turn?
I don't apologise. I don't care if he says I'm the worst player in the world everyone has there views and it's a forum but construct it in a poliete and respectful/ helpful way and ill listen, there's no need to go on every post and just be rude like that. Poker is a tough game and in goig to make mistakes, him giving comments like that isn't going to help me, so why be so rude?
Larson none of that was directed at u it was at cal. Lol I'm gonna delete all the nonsense comments, this isn't the school playground.
I didn't bet the turn because I had checked some air against him and c/f the turn so now I checked this strong hand against him to bet or c/r safe turn but it wasn't safe so I checked turn and bet river for value.
The AT hand is all im going to comment on. Infact ill break it down into stages through out the streets.
Pre we have ATs in the SB. I prefer 40p but 50p isnt terrible. As long as you do 50p when your bluffing and 50p when you have AA. This accounts for the UTG post and us having to play OOP post.
The flop we have TPTK why don't we cbet? If he has QJ-AK we've just given him a freebie, if he has 89/78 or clubs we've given him a freebie. Some of these hands will call anyways giving us value and building the pot for the times they miss. Other times they fold and we pick up £1.10 - Thats 11BB nice little scoop.
We then can barrel a turn. The K wouldn't hit a huge amount of our opponents range. Its also not a club so no draws have completed, again we can end the hand or get called by worse.
River we can bet again.
Turn and river as played. Turn i'd still bet, and again on river.
River as played, whats our opponents range? We have lead for pot and our opponent has still decided to bomb it. What do they have? Do they EVER have QT/JT - why wouldnt they have bet the turn themselves with these hands. Basically we beat zilch thus making it a pretty standard fold.
I think theres improvement to be had on all streets here. I suggest looking over the hand calmly yourself you will see this.
you have reached river and have no idea about oppo range to know if it's polarised or not
You took a punt that oppo mayb be bluffing and if you have oppo tendacies correct ie. likes to rep obvious cards and bluff big which make no sense then fine take a punt
don't think you need people coming on here and saying what a massive mistake you have made tbh
don't show results in future, you may get a more balance response
b/f river is ok imo, not saying b/c is terrible but you have to have a very concrete read would checking river be better because oppo is more likely to bluff l
thankyou don and rancid, said your comments in a constructive way and that helps me.
I agree not betting the flop is a mistake, I have to balance my range but this hand is to vunrable to do it with and I need to protect it and bet for value when im ahead. The turn I didn't bet because I thought if I didn't bet the flop I now cant bet the king on the turn that makes no sense, unless im turning my hand into a bluff/ or possiably turning it into thin value. The problem is by not betting any street is iv got to the river and I don't have a clue if my opponent is wanting to be in the hand or where I stand...... the one thing I will say about the call is its very opponent depended and the fact stack to pot ratio is so poor maybe means ill should of said if your bluffing have the pot theres better situations then this.
Today I had similar hand against similar opponent, he had abit smaller stack , I went to pressed call and stopped and see stack to pot ratio was small and thought learn from your mistakes.....he then showed me king high when I folded.....that's poker though I guess lol
UPDATE! 04/06/2013
Keeping up the hard work, played 6 hours today again , which is a lot for me even if it isn't for most of you lol . Played less then average in the first half of session, and was down due to standard thing and bad beat on river.....but I DIDNT TILT (I no shocking) maybe the mental game of poker is helping. I just thought im good enough to beat this level if I put my mind to it and only have thoughts of poker, not my b/r, not how unlucky that was etc.... and I stayed with stable emotions the whole 6 hours which im happy with. I only made £13, which is 1.3 byins, which is disappointing I guess, but still another winning session and it all helps in getting my game and b/r back... over the 2 days iv played long session for the promotion id have to say im happy with everything so far. I also beat KK vs AA which is a first for me so another record lol (it was against a man called rob young, is it dust till dawn rob young? )
I struggled to adapt to having more loose aggressive players on my table....I like to be in charge and boss the table around and I had to adapt and I didn't do it too well I don't think. My range was still abit too wide and I think my call 3bets oop needs to be more disciplined in terms of range, oh well ill have to work on it and give it some thought.....if anyone could offer any help on how they deal with loose passive players that seem to float etc then please comment.
Going to see if leaderboard is up and see if im close to my target of top 20.
Played a couple of times at your tables recently, you definetly have a good enough game to beat nl10 the fact you can 3bet light essentially makes you better than like 75% of players lol, been guilty myself of making calls in spots like your a10 above, it looks silly in reflection but we all level ourselves once in a while and its good that you at least have the balls to make the call if you think its right but generally at nl10 hero calls just aint going to be good as i have come to learn against the average player- against me though its always +ev.., also ccf posts are actually filled with alot of good content he just has a different style of getting his point across try not to get wound up if you don't agree with others just put your point across and agree to disagree if you can't resolve it.
Good luck with the promo btw, i didn't think i would be as high havn't played that much but have upped tables recently so maybe thats why im up there, maybe top 5 is realistic what you aiming for?
Yeah tbh I think I'm playing well lately but obv some spots I'm just getting the cards. Yeah uv got a good chance benc if u keep putting the time in, how long u playing and how many tables? My aim was just top 20 cause I don't usually play long but I'm suprised I'm that high, my aim is still top 20 I think but if I'm around where I am now come Friday morning I might try 12 hour days at 4 tables.... Maybe lol I don't wanna burn out tho lol whats ur aim, I'm gonna have a look at ur diary benc havnt had a look for a while.
I really didnt mean to come across rude, I was just annoyed he was so rude. Okay if that's how we talks fine but that's not really a good enough reason. Oh well it's done now.
I didnt intend to come over rude (i was trying to help), but you needed it breaking down a bit more.
Look at what you said
"Wow poker is such an easy game, I needed a smart **** who plays 4nl to tell me how easy it is and now Iv finally it it so now I can't ever make a mistake.... Jog on cal "
Firstly what relavance does 4nl have? Perhaps you should ban winning 4nl players form offering you advice and specifiy that you will only take advice from winning or losing 20nl players!
Secondly read the post you are quoting, I was breaking down the hand and numbers down in a way to help you understand my point a bit more, yes a bit of a jokey way, but hardly rude! I even went to the effort of highlighting the key ideas for you and putting line spaces in between the seperate points.
Look at the other two posts, I was both noting your good plays and mentioning areas I would look at.
I dont know why I wasted my time.
I would respectfully advise you not to alienate anybody else trying to offer you help, and I hope you go busto.
Pot kettle black I didnt intend to come over rude (i was trying to help), but you needed it breaking down a bit more. Look at what you said "Wow poker is such an easy game, I needed a smart **** who plays 4nl to tell me how easy it is and now Iv finally it it so now I can't ever make a mistake.... Jog on cal " Firstly what relavance does 4nl have? Perhaps you should ban winning 4nl players form offering you advice and specifiy that you will only take advice from winning or losing 20nl players! Secondly read the post you are quoting, I was breaking down the hand and numbers down in a way to help you understand my point a bit more, yes a bit of a jokey way, but hardly rude! I even went to the effort of highlighting the key ideas for you and putting line spaces in between the seperate points. Look at the other two posts, I was both noting your good plays and mentioning areas I would look at. I dont know why I wasted my time. I would respectfully advise you not to alienate anybody else trying to offer you help, and I hope you gobusto. Peace! Posted by calcalfold
Your a classy guy, I'm not even gonna waste my time whas the point lol I don't care if a 1nl or 500nl player offers me advice as long as its not rude and arrogant. I havnt felt that way with anyone else's comments. Anyways that's how u like to talk so let's waste no more time. Do your thing I do mine gl.
Update: 05/06/2013 Just an update for today, played my usual 6 hours that iv played in the morning sessions. Had a fairly slow start losing KK vs AQ, while heads up waiting for more people to join the table. Also had KK vs AA, and I slowplayed QQ by flatting pre and c/r a J 7 3 board, got the money in on flop against AJ, turn A river A, never mind.... Happy to say I hardly moved throughout all this though and it didn't change my mood or the way I played which im happy about.
I did 4 table for the last 2 hours though as to slowly progress myself, I felt it would be better to do it for the last 1/3rd see how I got on. It went good, it helped there is so many regs at 10nl so I basically had the same table 4 times lol Just see the leaderboard and iv dropped down to 8th I think, but not due to laziness the guy whos above me must of entered his code just yesterday, and DTM isn't there so really im 9th. Cant be too disappointed though as my aim at the start was top 20 and b4 this week the most tables I played was 3 and the longest like 3 hours so im happy really. I also made a profit today of £23, which considering those bad beats it isn't too bad.
Would it make any difference to the leaderboard if I done 2 session a day maybe equally 10 hours and 4 tabling for longer? or are they on another level and iv got no chance in catching them ??
ALSO!! the promo says about how active you've been and you get points for it.....this is only if you win the pot isn't it?
Update: 05/06/2013 Just an update for today, played my usual 6 hours that iv played in the morning sessions. Had a fairly slow start losing KK vs AQ, while heads up waiting for more people to join the table. Also had KK vs AA, and I slowplayed QQ by flatting pre and c/r a J 7 3 board, got the money in on flop against AJ, turn A river A, never mind.... Happy to say I hardly moved throughout all this though and it didn't change my mood or the way I played which im happy about. I did 4 table for the last 2 hours though as to slowly progress myself, I felt it would be better to do it for the last 1/3rd see how I got on. It went good, it helped there is so many regs at 10nl so I basically had the same table 4 times lol Just see the leaderboard and iv dropped down to 8th I think, but not due to laziness the guy whos above me must of entered his code just yesterday, and DTM isn't there so really im 9th. Cant be too disappointed though as my aim at the start was top 20 and b4 this week the most tables I played was 3 and the longest like 3 hours so im happy really. I also made a profit today of £23, which considering those bad beats it isn't too bad. Would it make any difference to the leaderboard if I done 2 session a day maybe equally 10 hours and 4 tabling for longer? or are they on another level and iv got no chance in catching them ?? ALSO!! the promo says about how active you've been and you get points for it.....this is only if you win the pot isn't it? Posted by robbie1992
if you see a flop then you have contributed wether you have won the hand or not, altho if you just see the flop for say 30p then it aint much and not going to get you a full point.
say you get to see a flop heads up and both of you get your stacks in by the river for 100bb so pot is £20. rake is taken at 7.5% (nl10 n below, 5% at higher levels) which brings it down to scooping £18.50. now theres £1.50 in rake. for every £1 in rake you get 6 points meaning theres 9 points available for this hand. because they was only 2 players in this pot all the way then these 9 points are shared between the 2 players meaning 4.5 each as you have both contributed the same wether you win or lose the hand.
its a fairly straight forward example ive used. but as long as you have put money into a pot and it is matched then you will get the percentage equivalent in points win or lose
Comments
The 1% comes from when they are on total complete monkey tilt.
Some players that appear "spashy" are just going to be playing a loose aggro game, this does not mean to say they are going to make horribad plays like betting 4x the pot without a hand thats good most of the time.
As you have found out to your cost, it can be difficult to put them on hands.
Although thinking a bit more, I dont really like villains shove a whole lot either. They have made it clear they have a king or better. I cant see a lot of players calling with a worse hand.
JJ, bet the flop, then again on the turn. From the turn onwards Tintin will generally let you know if your beat.
So thats 44/66/TT/Kx
I agree it doesnt make much sense. Imo neither of your plays make much sense at any point in this hand.
But the simple fact of the matter, and key point, is why would they bluff £8.66 at a £2.40pot? They wouldnt, its totally insane. Is shoving in a King insane? well no, but its far from optimal.
Although, hang on, you called. Maybe it was optimal in this instance.
So you asked why would "he kill all his value" He didnt - you called!
He got maximum value
Funny old game......
"once again you couldn't possiably comment as you don't have a clue what this player tendencies are ....."
Come on, do me a lemon, anybody can see your beat.
Maybe if you checked and he shipped you might be good, but even thats clutching at straws. The fact you showed an interest on the river (a pot sized one at that) and he shoved. Alarm bells, no?
Thats an insta fold and high five the cat moment.
If you don't want hands commented on don't post them.
If you disagree, brilliant, but dont start abusing people.
And Calc plays at the 10 nl, have no idea if he still plays 4nl or not. And no matter where he plays, whether its 4nl or 50nl does not make a difference to the fact that people can still give you good feedback on hands.
I never said anything "unhelpful in a rude way", i told you to stop abusing people.
And no bud, you can't say what you want when you are insulting people.
Grow up mate. Thats not needed. He wouldnt be posting on here if he wasn't trying to help.
Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make you right and visa versa. Forums like this are where people are able to express their opinions, whether you think they are right or wrong, even if it is on 'your diary'. You post a hand to be critiqued and aren't happy with the response... why post it then?
If you don't agree with him fair enough, but he's put thought into his argument and the least you could do is respect it.
And yes... it is clear you are beat. Wondering why you didnt c bet the flop or turn?
you have reached river and have no idea about oppo range to know if it's polarised or not
You took a punt that oppo mayb be bluffing and if you have oppo tendacies correct ie. likes to rep obvious cards and bluff big which make no sense then fine take a punt
don't think you need people coming on here and saying what a massive mistake you have made tbh
don't show results in future, you may get a more balance response
b/f river is ok imo, not saying b/c is terrible but you have to have a very concrete read
would checking river be better because oppo is more likely to bluff
l
thankyou don and rancid, said your comments in a constructive way and that helps me.
I agree not betting the flop is a mistake, I have to balance my range but this hand is to vunrable to do it with and I need to protect it and bet for value when im ahead. The turn I didn't bet because I thought if I didn't bet the flop I now cant bet the king on the turn that makes no sense, unless im turning my hand into a bluff/ or possiably turning it into thin value. The problem is by not betting any street is iv got to the river and I don't have a clue if my opponent is wanting to be in the hand or where I stand...... the one thing I will say about the call is its very opponent depended and the fact stack to pot ratio is so poor maybe means ill should of said if your bluffing have the pot theres better situations then this.
Today I had similar hand against similar opponent, he had abit smaller stack , I went to pressed call and stopped and see stack to pot ratio was small and thought learn from your mistakes.....he then showed me king high when I folded.....that's poker though I guess lol
UPDATE! 04/06/2013
Keeping up the hard work, played 6 hours today again , which is a lot for me even if it isn't for most of you lol . Played less then average in the first half of session, and was down due to standard thing and bad beat on river.....but I DIDNT TILT (I no shocking) maybe the mental game of poker is helping. I just thought im good enough to beat this level if I put my mind to it and only have thoughts of poker, not my b/r, not how unlucky that was etc.... and I stayed with stable emotions the whole 6 hours which im happy with. I only made £13, which is 1.3 byins, which is disappointing I guess, but still another winning session and it all helps in getting my game and b/r back... over the 2 days iv played long session for the promotion id have to say im happy with everything so far. I also beat KK vs AA which is a first for me so another record lol (it was against a man called rob young, is it dust till dawn rob young? )
I struggled to adapt to having more loose aggressive players on my table....I like to be in charge and boss the table around and I had to adapt and I didn't do it too well I don't think. My range was still abit too wide and I think my call 3bets oop needs to be more disciplined in terms of range, oh well ill have to work on it and give it some thought.....if anyone could offer any help on how they deal with loose passive players that seem to float etc then please comment.
Going to see if leaderboard is up and see if im close to my target of top 20.
Pos.
Lower
Good luck with the promo btw, i didn't think i would be as high havn't played that much but have upped tables recently so maybe thats why im up there, maybe top 5 is realistic what you aiming for?
I didnt intend to come over rude (i was trying to help), but you needed it breaking down a bit more.
Look at what you said
"Wow poker is such an easy game, I needed a smart **** who plays 4nl to tell me how easy it is and now Iv finally it it so now I can't ever make a mistake.... Jog on cal "
Firstly what relavance does 4nl have? Perhaps you should ban winning 4nl players form offering you advice and specifiy that you will only take advice from winning or losing 20nl players!
Secondly read the post you are quoting, I was breaking down the hand and numbers down in a way to help you understand my point a bit more, yes a bit of a jokey way, but hardly rude! I even went to the effort of highlighting the key ideas for you and putting line spaces in between the seperate points.
Look at the other two posts, I was both noting your good plays and mentioning areas I would look at.
I dont know why I wasted my time.
I would respectfully advise you not to alienate anybody else trying to offer you help, and I hope you go busto.
Peace!
Just an update for today, played my usual 6 hours that iv played in the morning sessions. Had a fairly slow start losing KK vs AQ, while heads up waiting for more people to join the table. Also had KK vs AA, and I slowplayed QQ by flatting pre and c/r a J 7 3 board, got the money in on flop against AJ, turn A river A, never mind.... Happy to say I hardly moved throughout all this though and it didn't change my mood or the way I played which im happy about.
I did 4 table for the last 2 hours though as to slowly progress myself, I felt it would be better to do it for the last 1/3rd see how I got on. It went good, it helped there is so many regs at 10nl so I basically had the same table 4 times lol Just see the leaderboard and iv dropped down to 8th I think, but not due to laziness the guy whos above me must of entered his code just yesterday, and DTM isn't there so really im 9th. Cant be too disappointed though as my aim at the start was top 20 and b4 this week the most tables I played was 3 and the longest like 3 hours so im happy really. I also made a profit today of £23, which considering those bad beats it isn't too bad.
Would it make any difference to the leaderboard if I done 2 session a day maybe equally 10 hours and 4 tabling for longer? or are they on another level and iv got no chance in catching them ??
ALSO!! the promo says about how active you've been and you get points for it.....this is only if you win the pot isn't it?
say you get to see a flop heads up and both of you get your stacks in by the river for 100bb so pot is £20. rake is taken at 7.5% (nl10 n below, 5% at higher levels) which brings it down to scooping £18.50. now theres £1.50 in rake. for every £1 in rake you get 6 points meaning theres 9 points available for this hand. because they was only 2 players in this pot all the way then these 9 points are shared between the 2 players meaning 4.5 each as you have both contributed the same wether you win or lose the hand.
its a fairly straight forward example ive used. but as long as you have put money into a pot and it is matched then you will get the percentage equivalent in points win or lose